Why is it so hard for some of us to pick and stick with a writing program?

1Togo · March 11, 2011

Capt,

From our experience, PBW presents topics not prompts, and the student can work the topic any way they desire. For example, with the topic on Italian food, dd wrote about the sub-topics in a way that would make a food critic drool. Who knew that my linguini was so divine? When she wrote about the basic math operations, she wrote a definition paragraph. When she wrote about the beach, she related each sub-topic to our visits to the beach, so the paragraph became a personal narrative. I think that is what Paul means when he says that some people miss the point of the prompts. He wants the student to use the topics in a way that is meaningful to them. Really, you can do anything with them. If the topic is the North Pole, the student couild write on anything from the climate to Santa Claus. If the topic is care of a cat and you are studying Egypt, you could write about cats in Ancient Egypt.

Edited March 11, 2011 by 1Togo

Capt_Uhura · March 11, 2011

Capt,

From our experience, PBW presents topics not prompts, and the student can work the topic any way they desire. For example, with the topic on Italian food, dd wrote about the sub-topics in a way that would make a food critic drool. Who knew that my linguini was so divine? When she wrote about the basic math operations, she wrote a definition paragraph. When she wrote about the beach, she related each sub-topic to our visits to the beach, so the paragraph became a personal narrative. I think that is what Paul means when he says that some people miss the point of the prompts. He wants the student to use the topics in a way that is meaningful to them. Really, you can do anything with them. If the topic is the North Pole, the student couild write on anything from the climate to Santa Claus. If the topic is care of a cat and you are studying Egypt, you could write about cats in Ancient Egypt.

Yes, I agree. That's what I've been talking with my boys about, how to make it their own. So for the atom example above, they could write about the structure of an atom, they could talk about the sub-particles which make up protons, electrons, and neutrons. They could discuss the order of discovery, how each one was discovered...which of course gets more into a longer piece than just a paragraph.

But still, my boys looked at some of the topics and their eyes glazed over so I think it's important to me to write topics, and have them brainstorm topics like we did for our Bravewriter classes that they know something about. I think it's important for them to be engaged with what they are writing.

I liked the beginning of The Lively Art of Writing how the author demonstrates how to take a seemingly mundane topic such as sterling silver and turn it into a really nice essay. It takes looking at it from multiple viewpoints, brainstorming ideas. So at least for my boys, it's going to take some talking to get them to write something good about pasta. My son did the cake topic so I asked him if he knew how to back a cake. He said yes, that I taught him for his birthday. So I had him add that to his paragraph to add interest.

Create Your Ritual · March 11, 2011

So Capt and 1Togo would you say that PWB is working for you as compared to other things you tried that were unsuccessful or not your favorite. I am assuming that you both have tried a 'few things' since starting, so I wondered how PWB fairs as compared to IEW, CW, WT2, or any others you might have tried. I am trying to get at the essence of what makes it different or more clear than the rest. With all the posting about writing going on recently, I also ran across Put That in Writing (Paragraphs) and The Write Foundation (Sentences to Paragraphs). Both also seem interesting, at least in the samples.. although I WOULD like something fairly easy to implement with the dc since I also have a two year old.

Create Your Ritual · March 12, 2011

I wanted to add that I have been enjoying Paula's blog regarding working on writing for the next two weeks with her Z at http://www.wakefieldacademy.blogspot.com

Roxy Roller · March 12, 2011

Capt,

From our experience, PBW presents topics not prompts, and the student can work the topic any way they desire. For example, with the topic on Italian food, dd wrote about the sub-topics in a way that would make a food critic drool. Who knew that my linguini was so divine? When she wrote about the basic math operations, she wrote a definition paragraph. When she wrote about the beach, she related each sub-topic to our visits to the beach, so the paragraph became a personal narrative. I think that is what Paul means when he says that some people miss the point of the prompts. He wants the student to use the topics in a way that is meaningful to them. Really, you can do anything with them. If the topic is the North Pole, the student couild write on anything from the climate to Santa Claus. If the topic is care of a cat and you are studying Egypt, you could write about cats in Ancient Egypt.

:iagree: I really appreciate the topics that PBW uses, because they are all topics that my children have prior knowledge of, so they are not struggling to find something to write about, they are putting their knowledge, whatever it might be, to use.

Create Your Ritual · March 12, 2011

Capt.

I am convinced the WTM method works. However, my black hole was needing good resources for teaching good paragraphs and essays with good examples so that I can teach on the fly across the curriculum the way 8FilltheHeart, KarenAnne, Correlano teaches. I've seen that work for my boys in other areas and it works well for them. For example, we did a bit of SWR enough to learn the method well. NOw, when we have trouble words, we apply SWR markings to it, discuss the rule and it sticks. Rather than doing a hodge podge of words with no meaning b/c DC isn't using those words in his writing.

**

Do you know what (8Fillthe Heart, KarenAnne, and Correlano) used for teaching basic paragraph structure and solidifying things before they started using it across the curriculum?

Capt_Uhura · March 12, 2011

So Capt and 1Togo would you say that PWB is working for you as compared to other things you tried that were unsuccessful or not your favorite. I am assuming that you both have tried a 'few things' since starting, so I wondered how PWB fairs as compared to IEW, CW, WT2, or any others you might have tried.

Actually, I've only done WWE1-3 and part of 4 with DS10. We did MCT Sentence Island and through lesson 10 of MCT PT.

It's still way to early for me to say if PBW is working our not. We are in the very early stages of it...only on pattern 5. DS10 wrote a narration for WWE4 and he had a topic sentence, details and a closer so I think that is probably from the discussions we've had w/ PBW and PWME.

Capt_Uhura · March 12, 2011

Do you know what (8Fillthe Heart, KarenAnne, and Correlano) used for teaching basic paragraph structure and solidifying things before they started using it across the curriculum?

No I don't. I think KarenAnne and Correlano are both writers so just know how to do it. I believe in a thread 8FilltheHeart mentioned that she used writing curricula early on but now doesn't need it, but I don't recall her mentioning any specifics.

Capt_Uhura · March 12, 2011

"Writing Prompts - Currently I show up for #1 for the search â€œSpring

Writing Prompts.â€ People seem to like the prompts I have posted, however I

feel prompts should really come from the curriculum you are studying and

what the students want to write about. In the early stages, the entire PBW

program was quickly explained out of my mouth and on the whiteboard. Most

of the time was spent with students writing and then discussing. Writing

prompts came from the books we were reading and what students wanted to

write about.

If people donâ€™t like the prompts in PBW, they are missing the intent of

the program. I donâ€™t even consider them prompts. I do want to find a way

to make this clear, but am currently at a loss for the proper way to

express it. At some stage I would probably try to improve the â€œprompts,â€

however, I think that would likely cause problems, as well."

.

I think the part in bold needs to be spelled out more clearly. Perhaps it is and I just missed it. I will have to re-read this weekend.

I think it would help to more clearly explain them as topics and give an example. Use the same topic and same 3 details, and give two sample paragraphs. That would help folks in seeing the dynamic nature of the topics. But still ideally, I want to write topics like these but have them be in our content areas. That way, the boys are writing about history and science, cementing their knowledge, but also practicing their writing skills.

My boys liked the paragraphs where you were only given the topic b/c they could come up with their own details. We only did 2 of the paragraphs from p41 where are you given the details. I was going to do more of the perfect paragraphs w/ only the topic sentence but also do the brainstorming b/c I think that will help them and then park here perfecting the perfect paragraph but doing it w/in our content areas.

Cleopatra · March 12, 2011

Do you know what (8Fillthe Heart, KarenAnne, and Correlano) used for teaching basic paragraph structure and solidifying things before they started using it across the curriculum?

I believe this is the post where 8FilltheHeart gives an amazingly sensible guide for writing instruction without a curriculum (gasp! ;) ) :001_smile:

http://www.welltrainedmind.com/forums/showthread.php?t=239259&page=4

Just scroll down to find her. She had to create two posts to fit all the information in. It's been one of my favorite reads lately!

elegantlion · March 12, 2011

I have a friend that says National Geographic writes great articles. I have looked at them. Do you think that your child would learn to write if you went to the library with your child and had them copy the articles from National Geographic and Wall Street Journal or Newsweek? It would save you a lot of money. But when you think about it, that is exactly what Ben Franklin did. Also, Fredrick Douglas did this in order to learn how to write. I think that there is power in copying, rewrite, etc. You don't need to jump from program to program to do that. I am finding them to be wastes of time and they do stink.

Blessings,

Karen

http://www.homeschoolblogger.com/testimony

I can safely say not to use our state conservation magazine. I thought *I* liked run-on sentences. :D We used an article to outline. It was fine for that, but no way should he imitate the writing.

National Geographic, now that's a better idea.

Ok, if I only had one kid, I would not do PWME. You can easily do it on your own in the content areas. But with 3 kids, sometimes you need a workbook to say, "Hey read this and then come tell me what you learned." Or it's easy to pick up and go and do while DD is at gymnastics class or speech therapy. :001_huh: Well, that's my honest opinion. Well, let's just say, if I could have thumbed through PWME at a bookstore, I could have learned everything I needed from it. I'm actually doing PWME with my 2nd grader. He is advanced in language arts and that's his area of strength but it's easy for him so far to grasp the concepts. He had no issue w/ finding a topic sentence placed at the end of a paragraph for example so he's understanding it fairly well.

I did buy PWME for one. And for us it has been a good fit. We're doing remedial work and he needed the simple basic instruction. We completed some of it last spring and we're working on it this week and next. He needs that little boost of encouragement, so it was worth it to us. Again, this goes back to the ability to preview material. I wish we could preview more materials.

I wanted to add that I have been enjoying Paula's blog regarding working on writing for the next two weeks with her Z at http://www.wakefieldacademy.blogspot.com

:blush: thank you.

I found Writer's Inc at a thrift store today and it looks like a great reference. I had a Write Source book geared for younger kids, but I think this one should be good for middle/high school.

I also just printed the Writer's Jungle. I'm anxious to dig into it this weekend.

One of MY goals for this spring is to shore up MY writing philosophy and stick with it. Geez, sticking with a Latin program isn't this difficult.

I did find a notebook I compiled from ds's work when we used CW Aesop. His imitations were clear and imaginative. It gave me hope. Maybe once Homer gets out of storage we'll dust him off and give it another shot.

I love reading conversations like this, what a great board.

Chris in PA · March 12, 2011

Since you have worked with IEW, how do you see the work of IEW's Units 1, 2, 3, and 4 as being different from SWB's outlining/writing from an outline sequence? Also, when you write your narrative summaries, do you plan to include a topic sentence? Ditto, the science outlining. Do you plan to begin with a topic sentence and find support and/or ideas that relate to that topic sentence?

As I mentioned we just started yesterday. For his outlining we are not using key words. I need to him to be able to remember what he wrote when it comes time to write from that outline. In history today, he needed to summarize a section on Nixon. We came up with 6 facts to use. He just wrote the facts on a piece of paper. Then we talked about putting them in paragraph form and what every paragraph needed. He came up with a nice topic sentence and ordered his facts chronologically. My plan is to eventually use these narrations to work on sentence structure, strong verbs, describing words, etc. I want to use them to teach him how to write a strong paragraph. Science outlining will be used in a similar fashion. We will use our Roman numerals to come up with our topic sentence and then fill in the paragraph from the rest of the outline. I assume if I wanted to I could have him create and introduction and a conclusion and we would have a 5 paragraph essay but at this point I am not convinced that is necessary.

I hope that helps

Chris in PA · March 12, 2011

I am just now trying to remember to switch my mindset and my language with my kids to this same idea - we are not doing a "writing lesson" today - we are "doing a history outline" or a "science composition" or a "literature analysis" etc.. It goes over much better, and I think it accurately reflects what writing instruction will eventually lead to.

Colleen,

You are so right about the switch in mindset. When I told him what we were going to do yesterday, his face lit up. He used to dread writing. I think he now sees the purpose and that it relates to something he is learning.

Create Your Ritual · March 12, 2011

I am looking forward to Elemental Science's Logic Stage Biology for next year. It should come out with all of the components by the beginning of our school year. She uses the WTM as a guideline and has them outlining sections, writing about scientists and famous discoveries as well as all of the experiments. I feel like I am going to need all the help I can get writing the WTM way. ;-)

Create Your Ritual · March 12, 2011

Can I just ask if anyone has ever heard of The Longman Writer: Rhetoric, Reader, and Research Guide (7th edition) from here -

http://www.mypearsonstore.com/bookstore/product.asp?isbn=0205598706

or their Longman Writer's Companion (updated 4th edition) here -

http://www.mypearsonstore.com/bookstore/product.asp?isbn=0205741819

I only ask, because in my searches today to uncover a book of some type to teach writing across the curriculum, writing different types of essays, etc. I came across this. I can't for the life of me find a sample. But several of the chapter sections discuss Academic Writing : Social and Natural Sciences, Humanities and Literature, General Education. I don't know.. I was curious. Clearly it's a little ahead of what I need at the moment, but I hate it when I can't SEE something.

If you look in the Description Tab it will give the table of contents for each book.

Robin in DFW · March 12, 2011

We have the Writer's Inc. Handbook. This has been a real help to her. It is the high school level book.

The best little guide ever is one that came with a Keystone National High School course she took. It gives to the point instruction on different types of writing AND how to do sources (MLA). I don't know if they sell this booklet, but it's been one she has referred to over and over again.

I have various others, but these two are the ones that get used the most.

Robin in DFW · March 12, 2011

If you have a Half Price Books in your area, they often have the Longman guides in the reference section (not education area). My store has them near the dictionaries, thesauri, etc. in the college writing/grammar reference area.