Why is it so hard for some of us to pick and stick with a writing program?

[Create Your Ritual]

For me, today, I seem to be caught up in the idea of going from outlining and narrations to somehow writing 5 paragraph papers. Also, is it essential to be teaching narrative, descriptive and expository writing as well? That's the major problem I am having with teaching writing.

 

I have dc who are quite good at narratives, summaries and retelling fables (ie. WT1, WWE, etc.) What I don't understand is how to move them through the different types of writing styles, and write a solid 5 paragraph paper. It seems like a rather large leap. I have considered that possibly I should just continue to concentrate on building grammar, vocabulary & sentence style (MCT, Killgallon, R&S) and try not to get caught up in the idea that dd9 has to somehow form a cohesive paper by the end of 5th grade. I plan on teaching outlining skills this coming year. All that said though, I would like to know HOW to progress towards that when I think she has a firm grasp on sentence structure and style, grammar concepts, punctuation issues, outlining, etc.

 

Does IEW teach narrative, descriptive, etc? Does CW? Am I just getting ahead of myself here because of some perceived idea that my dc need to be doing more than they are? I just WISH writing was like math where you just moved up to the next level of MM. It just seems so much harder do find a direction to move in. I appreciate reading that others are struggling with this very thing, but to me that just means that there are still a lot of questions to be answered about how to teach children how to write. Especially for people like me who are not natural writers, teachers or know how to go about it on their own.

[wapiti]

I very clearly understand this situation. I created a program to meet my needs. In the end everyone does. TWTM says K-4 is the grammar stage, and grade 5-8 is the logic stage.

 

I spent huge chucks of time on grammar in both 3rd and 4th but did not see it applied in daily work. Writer’s Workshop brought little results. In one of the most popular posts on my blog, “Teaching Children Paragraph Writing is Hard,” I narrate logically explaining paragraphs to children. It didn’t work. TWTM seems to say that logically explaining paragraphs to 3rd and 4th graders should not work. There is also a post on the blog, “Paragraph Rules” outlining Alexander Bain’s original paragraph rules. None of that’s included in the program. It’s a logical explanation of paragraphs.

 

My experience is that after students can write a basic simple five paragraph essay, you can then get more and more logical. Once they understand the whole, and how the parts fit into the whole, then you can get logical. Telling children what they did wrong in writing is logic. They are logical explanations of the mistake they have made. They have to be ready for that kind of logic for it to be effective.

 

It seems everyone wants to understand the natural progression of good writing. I wrote a post of “Overview of Elementary School Writing Expectations (Grades 1-5).” However, people are better off constructing their own knowledge by printing out the student writing samples that the state of Oregon has provided.

 

TTC has a college level course on sentences. It’s profound. A good portion of what elementary students learn about sentences and grammar is a very simplified version. I often say, “Do you want the high school explanation? I’ll give it, or would you just prefer to keep it simple for now and then build on that?”

 

When trying to get my head around all this, I created a poster called, “The Size of Language.” I wanted a poster where I could look up and see how what I was teaching fit in with language. It sounds like this is what everyone is trying to grasp. Currently I’m watching an advanced grammar program. :lol:

 

From your paragraph link above:

 

What I learned was that students don’t develop paragraph mastery until they develop an understanding of how paragraphs fit together within an essay, and understand the relationship between paragraphs and the introduction and conclusion.

 

A paragraph in multi-paragraph writing reveals the truer purpose and the truer need for the paragraph. Paragraphs make sense to students when they discover how to create a unique “unity of purpose” for each distinct paragraph in their multi-paragraph writing.

 

Would you say this is a whole-to-parts approach (the whole being the essay and the paragraph being the parts)? Is this the approach your program takes? Are there samples of your program that you could link us to? Thanks :)

[Ester Maria]

I haven't read the whole thread.

 

The problem, in my view, lies in that fact that writing is a very interactive area: the best way to learn how to write is not by using a specific program, but to just write and get very individualized feedback - not something that the classical writing programs can afford you. It's just a teacher-intensive area in and of itself, and no program is going to change that. The best those programs can offer are general guidelines, ideas and topics, but the actual writing instruction has to be a lot more individualized than any specific program. That, in my eyes, is the reason why so many people find it hard to stick to one program.

[Colleen in NS]

what I really want is for a knowledgeable, competent teacher/writer to give me an outline of the progression of writing skill development so that I could plug my own ideas and tools into the mix but be assured that I wasn't missing anything and not asking The Imp to fly before he can crawl.

 

I hate to sound like a broken record, but this is exactly what SWB's writing/literature lectures were to me. I struggled and struggled a few years ago with figuring out this progression myself, and would ask questions here, too. But when I went to the conf. where the lectures were recorded, everything fell into place in my mind. I finally had an outline of progression from grades 1-12, and the materials to look over and figure out how to carry out this progression.

 

For me, today, I seem to be caught up in the idea of going from outlining and narrations to somehow writing 5 paragraph papers. Also, is it essential to be teaching narrative, descriptive and expository writing as well? That's the major problem I am having with teaching writing.

 

I would like to know HOW to progress towards that when I think she has a firm grasp on sentence structure and style, grammar concepts, punctuation issues, outlining, etc.

 

I can only speak from my own very narrow experience so far (and I have no prior experience before teaching my children). In my understanding from WTM/SWB's lectures (and I refer to these often because of her experience both in teaching and in writing; and because her explanations make very practical sense to me), copywork/dictation and narrations come first. You work on these, eventually bringing dictation and oral narration together into written narration (being able to summarize a passage). Then you progress to outlining, then you progress to rewriting from those outlines-of-other-authors'-writings. These rewrites, in our experience, are where kids practice paragraph form (topic sentence, supporting the topic) and grammar/spelling/mechanics. When my ds rewrites from an outline, I don't have him write a "five paragraph essay" - this is another whole ball of wax that has been debated on the boards. I just focus right now on helping him with paragraphs and organizing his ideas (and grammar/mechanics/spelling) and filling out his ideas. I'm thinking that the skills that are involved with this "five paragraph essay" will be addressed in the WTM-rec'd. rhetoric study (introductory paragraph, conclusion paragraph). I'm pretty sure they are covered in materials that teach how to write research papers. And I'm pretty sure that writing different types of paragraphs will also be covered in rhetoric study. I've seen glimpses of it in my rhetoric books and in my R&S Teacher books, as I dip into them when my mind starts questioning.

[Create Your Ritual]

Yes Colleen, I KNOW you are right... but I struggle with slowing down and allowing them to move at that pace. Especially the eldest. For some reason, since coming out of ps last year I feel like I am in catch up mode with those who have hs from the beginning. ;-) THEN I feel like I 'MUST' be behind if I am not doing what ps says they are going to do next year with their 5th graders next year. I can't seem to win on either path when it comes to expectations for my dc. Ultimately I am considering that maybe 'I' just need therapy, rather than a better writing curriculum! :tongue_smilie:

[Capt_Uhura]

Colleen .... I understand what you're saying...those have been where are my thoughts are heading. What I've been in search of is a good resource. Here are great paragraphs and here is why they are great. So that when DC is writing those narrations in history, science, and literature, I can guide him in writing good paragraphs. I was looking for the same for essays as a self study for myself now before I'm there w/ DS. But as you can tell from my other thread "What is academic writing?" I'm all over the board with that one. All the essays I found as excellent examples I saw seem non-academic to me.

[5LittleMonkeys]

I've spent most of yesterday evening and today working out my thoughts in my mind and on paper. This is more about me and the way I want my dc to learn how to write than it is about whether a certain curriculum is good or not.

 

Ester Maria is right about writing instruction needing to be individualized...something I made reference to realizing in an earlier post also. I've realized that my oldest two dc have very different writing instruction needs. They need to be working on different skills and with different methods. The skills I want them to learn can not be found in one program so I have to try to blend together skills from different programs. However, I do not want to put half a dozen programs in front of them. It feels too disconnected, too artificial.

 

There is one program\method that I don't have a problem following as written. I still keep going back to SWB's recommendations for skills taught in a certain order and at a certain time. I think they make perfect sense and am going to adhere to those recommendations with all of my dc from here on out. Where I have some issue is the fact that while those skill building exercises teach a lot of the mechanics of writing they don't teach a lot about word usage, using clauses and phrases, sentence variety, persuasive, descriptive, etc. types of writing. Those things we want our dc to know about so that they can write elegantly and with some style and can write accordingly based on their audience. Perhaps an extremely language intuitive student would pick up on those things from the models that they are working with but my dc aren't those students.

 

The problem, for me, lies in the fact that if I pull out a different workbook each time I want to teach a specific skill the lesson is out of context and I think makes it more difficult to apply to their real writing.(that writing they do across the curriculum) I want to be able to work on clauses when my dc has a dictation passage that has a really good use of a clause in it. I want to talk about descriptive writing when my dc has to write a short passage about the setting of her literature book. I don't want to teach those things when a workbook tells me to or use some ridiculous writing prompt that has no meaning or purpose. I think, for me, using "how to write" books and programs as a reference library for me to refer to when I want to work on something will work better than trying to follow those curricula as written.

 

Here is what I'm thinking.

 

Grades 1-4 - copywork\dictation\narration\short responses to literary questions - work on sentence structure, word choice, phrases\clauses, sentence variety, etc.

Grades 5-8 - dictation\outlines\re-writing outlines\narrative summaries\longer literary summaries - work on paragraph structure, topic sentences, persuasive, descriptive, narrative, expository, etc. types of writing, also begin showing them how they can use these same types of outlines to organize their own writing.

Grades 9-12 - Okay...I haven't exactly gotten as far in my thinking on this stage but I know by this time they should be proficient in the skills they've been working on so now they will be able to focus on a study of rhetoric and practice and refine essay writing and research papers and work on their own personal style of writing and continue to experiment with word usage, voice, etc.

 

This, of coarse, involves me taking a huge active role in actually teaching instead of letting a curriculum do the teaching. My lesson for the day will depend on what my dc has written. The writing will depend on what we are doing in their other subjects. It might be dictation from a lit. book they are reading or it might be a narrative summary from their history lesson.

I'm sure I will need to refine this...it's just a rough plan right now and I am going to have to decide where my older dc fit into this plan. (Some remediation will have to take place.)

 

There are probably a lot of you out there who are saying, "Uh, yah that's what we do." But this really is different thinking for me. The longer I homeschool the more I've realized that most writing curricula is written for the masses and is a bit too one size fits all. I guess that's fine for some subjects but not great for instructing my dc in this particular subject.

 

So, now I need recommendations for writing books...not curricula. I have Lively Art of Writing and The New Oxford Guide to Writing in my cart at Amazon. What else can I read that will educate me?

 

Also, tell me what you think about my "plan". Are there any huge flaws in my thinking? Am I naive in thinking I can pull this off or am I correct in thinking that this may actually simplify things? Or is it too simple, meaning not enough? Be honest please...I want to get this right.

[Create Your Ritual]

Yes, it WOULD be nice if you could teach paragraph structure, topic sentences,, descriptive, narrative, persuasive, and expository types of writing throughout the curriculum while they are already writing about what they are studying or reading about. It does feel disjointed when they then have to pick up a separate writing curriculum and form a paragraph about why they love their bedrooms..... it would probably hit home a lot quicker for them if it was taken in the context of what they were studying.

 

I too have been reading the Lively Art of Writing recently, and also bought Image Grammar by Noden, and The Elements of Style by Strunk and White which I have yet to read. I would need to gather the information in my head though in some sort of cohesive manner in order to feel like I could possibly teach it on the fly while studying our history or science curriculums. This is why it seems such an easy choice for me to grab onto something like IEW SWI in the hopes that DVDs would help my cause a bit. I would like to 'think' that I could teach the concepts myself, but I am concerned that I am woefully unprepared for how to do it.

[5LittleMonkeys]

Yes Colleen, I KNOW you are right... but I struggle with slowing down and allowing them to move at that pace. Especially the eldest. For some reason, since coming out of ps last year I feel like I am in catch up mode with those who have hs from the beginning. ;-) THEN I feel like I 'MUST' be behind if I am not doing what ps says they are going to do next year with their 5th graders next year. I can't seem to win on either path when it comes to expectations for my dc. Ultimately I am considering that maybe 'I' just need therapy, rather than a better writing curriculum! :tongue_smilie:

 

I know exactly how you feel! I have been playing catch-up with my two oldest for the last two years and I'm beating myself up over the skill building time I've wasted. For all our "catching-up" we haven't made any progress. When I first pulled them out of school I started following WTM recs for writing but then I went off the path. If I'd stayed the coarse they would have had solid skills in place right now and probably been able to easily begin writing essays in 9th grade, or probably even in 8th grade. As it is now we have a good two years or more of repairing to take care of.

 

Are you sending them back to ps in the near future? If you are I can understand the panic to get them up to "speed" so to speak. If they aren't...well...it is hard to decide what skill level is acceptable and that you can live with. I know, because I just made it. I don't want my dc to learn that the goal of learning how to write is so they can produce a 5 paragraph essay. Writing is so much more than that. The 5 paragraph essay is nothing more than a benchmark that the ps schools have set in place as a goal for all 5th graders to shoot for. It is put in place so that they can have all of the students on the same page so that they can then move them all to the next benchmark at the same level and pace. Does your dc need to be on that page? It is a question only you can answer but I sympathize because, as I said, it is a hard decision to make. :grouphug:

[Create Your Ritual]

Aime,

 

No, I don't think we are putting them back in, but regardless I always seem to weigh their progress against some 'benchmark' someone else has set. I often hear that our local ps is teaching this or that to them, but then most of the kids I know in highschool on FB can't complete a sentence with correct grammar. ;-) It's hard to know WHAT exactly they are learning there. Ultimately I think I place these obstacles in my own path though. I definitely don't want to find myself in the position where I am chasing my own tail around, not accomplishing much.

 

Can I ask you to define your 'catch up' and what you mean by that? How did it go in your house specifically? What do you mean by staying the course ??? Are you talking about staying with SWBs writing recommendations? I am just trying to define it for myself, so it would be nice to know what it looks like to someone else. ;-)

 

When everyone speaks of writing across the curriculum and all of that, I LOVE the sound of that. I welcome papers about Charlemagne or Botany or whatever they are reading for the week next year with my dd. However, I don't know the best way to GET them there. I really need to self educate at this point if I am going to be doing more than just following the guidelines in a separate writing curriculum as I just don't have the nuts and bolts down quite yet.

[5LittleMonkeys]

Yes, it WOULD be nice if you could teach paragraph structure, topic sentences,, descriptive, narrative, persuasive, and expository types of writing throughout the curriculum while they are already writing about what they are studying or reading about. It does feel disjointed when they then have to pick up a separate writing curriculum and form a paragraph about why they love their bedrooms..... it would probably hit home a lot quicker for them if it was taken in the context of what they were studying.

 

I too have been reading the Lively Art of Writing recently, and also bought Image Grammar by Noden, and The Elements of Style by Strunk and White which I have yet to read. I would need to gather the information in my head though in some sort of cohesive manner in order to feel like I could possibly teach it on the fly while studying our history or science curriculums. This is why it seems such an easy choice for me to grab onto something like IEW SWI in the hopes that DVDs would help my cause a bit. I would like to 'think' that I could teach the concepts myself, but I am concerned that I am woefully unprepared for how to do it.

 

Yes, grabbing a program seemed like the easy choice for me too but it just isn't working for us. I'm just going to take educating myself one step at a time right now. My dds need to start back at the sentence level so I am going to learn all I can and gather my resources regarding sentences right now. I'll probably take notes which always cements things in my mind and am thinking about making a spreadsheet referencing skill and resource so that I know right where to go. :confused: I'll have to hash it all out but I think it is doable.

[Create Your Ritual]

Yes, I was just coming back to add to my a last post this.... While I am talking about descriptive, narrative, etc. and 5 paragraph essays, what I am really thinking in the back of my mind is that my original intention for next year had been to work on sentence structure and style, build their vocabulary, and practice grammar & punctuation. I also wanted to begin outlining and having them writing full paragraphs with topic/supporting/closing statements. I don't want to be in such a rush to give them the 'nuts and bolts' that I miss the beauty of the language. Using Image Grammar or Killgallon along with MCT just feels RIGHT to me right now. They have LOVED WWE this year as well. In many instances, it has caused them to go on and read the entire book of whatever the weekly passage was about. I want them to copy and model passages from classic literature.

 

I guess I was just trying to find the best direction to flow in with regards to building paragraphs and eventually putting all the skills they are learning to work for them. I jump all over the place after my initial sentence building idea. At that point I am like, "IEW... MCT ... stay with WWE, WT2, PBW, Put That in Writing, LToW..... the list goes on."

[5LittleMonkeys]

SaDonna,

 

Yes, staying the course meant staying with WTM recommendations. More specifically the plan laid out by SWB in her A Plan for Writing MP3 lectures. Colleen is right when she says this is a perfect framework from which to design your own customized writing program.

 

The catching up we tried to do the past two years consisted of starting out with WTM recommendations but I tried to drop my two oldest in at the logic level skills instead of dropping them back to the later grammar stage skills. They really needed some practice in dictation and narration before we jumped into summaries and outlines. This type of writing was all new to them. When the summaries and outlines proved frustrating for them (because we didn't start back far enough) I thought that perhaps it was the wrong path even though I was seeing some improvement in skill. I also started getting panicked because of what their ps counterparts were doing and talk here on the boards about writing essays in 4th and 5th grade. I started looking for the magic curriculum that was going to teach them how to write an essay. I switched to Writing Strands then Daily 6 Trait Writing, then did a semester of Aesop (progymnasmata) style writing. Our latest venture was Classical Writing Homer. That one just about sent me over the edge even after I tried to adapt and tweak it. In between and during each of these major curriculum changes we would try to write across the curriculum withing the logic stage but because those grammar stage skills were missing they struggled with basic sentence construction and their paragraphs were awful. We also tried a lot of teacher supply store workbooks, and had several periods of no writing at all. Not to use a cliche but it was all like putting a band-aid on a gaping wound.

 

Have you listened to the MP3s? I listened to them again in the last few days and they really help me to find clarity in the direction I want to take.

[Create Your Ritual]

Yes, I have listened to the grammar and logic MP3s. I really enjoyed them. It seems so simple. Then my mind goes, "Well it is TOO simple.. clearly YOU have to make it more difficult... it's not enough...!!!"

 

I haven't listened to the rhetoric level yet, but I was hoping to have the kids prepared for writing paragraphs (descriptive and otherwise) by the time 9th grade rolled around just in case they opted to go into high school at the public school. I think if I wasn't on a bit of a time table with regards to that, then I would just SLOWWWWWWW way down and not be concerned. Having said all of that, I have read from others that if the grammar, spelling, sentence structure, style portions of things are down then it becomes a much quicker process to write 5 paragraph essays. I know someone on here mentioned learning these things in a matter of months, not years at a later age.

 

When I read papers out of ps (not ALL of them, just the one I know), the papers seems clean, precise, but lacking somehow. I want to try to teach the emotion, the idea of having an opinion and arguing it regardless of what others perceive of the subject material. To feel like they can articulate themselves clearly while writing is a BIG thing to me. When I read them an excerpt from something like '20 Leagues Under the Sea, The Hobbit, or C.S.Lewis' it's the beauty of the writing that compels me to continue. I think that there has to be some level of creativity in writing, even with something like a Descriptive Essay.. or whatever History or Science topic they are studying. Otherwise they are just words, dry and stagnant on the paper. They might say something, but without beautiful sentence structure and having a real 'feel' for the words, then they are just that ... words formed into a paragraph. Although I am feeling pressure to 'catch them up' to the nuts and bolts they are supposed to be learning, I can't allow myself to forget what the ultimate goal is.

[5LittleMonkeys]

Having said all of that, I have read from others that if the grammar, spelling, sentence structure, style portions of things are down then it becomes a much quicker process to write 5 paragraph essays. I know someone on here mentioned learning these things in a matter of months, not years at a later age. Yes, this is the assumption I am going with as well. The things you mention are the things we will be focusing on for the next year for my oldest and 2-3 years for my younger dd. When following SWB methods your dc will be doing at least 3 level outlines and rewriting from those by 8th grade so the jump to outlining their own work and formulating it into an essay isn't really that much of a jump, imo. Especially if you have allowed them to write outlines all along for any of their work. Even a simple paragraph written to summarize a chapter in their science book could be outlined first. This is something I'm going to stress with my dc because organization is key to good writing.

 

When I read papers out of ps (not ALL of them, just the one I know), the papers seems clean, precise, but lacking somehow. I want to try to teach the emotion, the idea of having an opinion and arguing it regardless of what others perceive of the subject material. To feel like they can articulate themselves clearly while writing is a BIG thing to me. When I read them an excerpt from something like '20 Leagues Under the Sea, The Hobbit, or C.S.Lewis' it's the beauty of the writing that compels me to continue. I think that there has to be some level of creativity in writing, even with something like a Descriptive Essay.. or whatever History or Science topic they are studying. Otherwise they are just words, dry and stagnant on the paper. They might say something, but without beautiful sentence structure and having a real 'feel' for the words, then they are just that ... words formed into a paragraph. Although I am feeling pressure to 'catch them up' to the nuts and bolts they are supposed to be learning, I can't allow myself to forget what the ultimate goal is.

I agree with this last part too which is why I feel it necessary to add to WTM writing. SWB's method is the house, which in my earlier thread I highlighted in green. I have to add the furnishings and decorations and make it the home. But the trappings aren't worth much if there is a crack in the foundation. :lol::tongue_smilie: Wow, I'm so tired I'm getting slap happy...that was so corny!

[PenKase]

:bigear: here with great interest. I've a lot yet to learn. Conversations like these are extremely helpful.

 

FWIW, I am currently reading Pride and Prejudice for the first time. I am humbled and awe struck at the language! I find myself wanting to copy sentences, paragraphs, and even entire pages. I only wish I'd read it sooner and have it's beauty to carry in my mind. A work of art indeed!!! And when I think about the artist's creative process, it takes consistent time, dedication, effort, perseverance, some blood, sweat, and tears too. An artist must work at his/her craft continuously in order to hone and perfect it. It should be no different for the art of language.

 

Did Jane Austen use writing curricula?

 

I feel like I too need to stop searching for THE program cure and KISS ASAP!!! The WTM/SWB lectures make perfect, clear sense to me yet I too fear it's simplicity and allow myself to be drawn in by the greener grass over there. As a PP mentioned, If I'd just stuck in my mind withwhat my heart knows will work, we'd be further along than we are now (and we're not doing too badly, I dont' think. I've seen vast improvements in dd's writing the more and more she writes and we edit, edit, edit). The MCT/SWB combo works. Although I do have to prepare my dc at some point for the possibility of high school, I'm growing more and more confident (from reading on these boards) that the 5 paragraph essay monster can be taught over the course of a semester or during a summer when/if the time comes.

 

I wonder if SWB pops in here, unbeknown to us, and after reading all this angst, says, "Didn't I tell you...." :lol::lol:

[1Togo]

I have several questions for those of you using SWB's writing an outline/writing an outline sequence.

 

1. Do you prepare separate lessons to teach your children how to write original topic sentences, how to develop ideas, and how to deal with noun and verb issues, etc.?

 

2. How do you teach your children transition, descriptive elements, sentence variety, unity, etc.?

 

3. Do you only use one source for outlining or do you use a variety of sources?

 

4. Do you go over the sources with your children and point out writing styles and/or poor quality in the source?

 

5. Do you find that your children basically imitate the source or have they stepped away from imitation? Many of the history spines suggested by SWB are written like encyclopedias, which isn't powerful writing, so I am wondering if your children just mimic the style of the spine?

 

6. Can any of you compare SWB's outline writing sequence and IEW's Units 1/2 and Units 4/6? IEW Units 1/2 teach students to write a key word outline using every sentence of the source, but Units 4/6 teach the student to write an outline using a topic sentence and supporting facts. Of course, SWB teaches the sentence outline and IEW teaches kwo, but other than that, what is the difference?

 

7. Has anyone on the forum used only SWB's writing an outline/writing from an outline suggestion and launched a student into rhetoric writing? If so, were there any problems?

Edited March 11, 2011 by 1Togo

[1Togo]

I suspect that Jane Austen was a natural writer, but given the time period, if she received writing instruction, it wasn't based on modern methods.

[Chris in PA]

I have been following this thread with great interest. Tuesday I downloaded and listened to SWB's writing lectures. I am really drawn to this method. It just makes sense to me. And quite frankly I am tired of trying to find the "perfect" writing curriculum for my ds and dd. So yesterday I told my ds (7th grade) we were not going to "do writing" the rest of the year. We would be writing narrative summaries from either history or science several times a week and also be outlining from either history or science. So yesterday we completed an outline of his first section of his science reading and he wrote a narrative summary from his AAH text on JFK. He did quite well. This method requires my time. We sat and read through the AAH section and I asked him questions as I read to pull out the main ideas. I am hopeful that after a period of time doing this together he will be able to do it on his own. We also worked on the outline of science together.

 

We had been doing IEW together (2 years) and it just wasn't sticking. When we start implementing the writing from his outlines we will begin discussing topic sentences, varies sentence structure, etc. I am excited to see where we go with this. I am vowing to stick to this method. I now need to figure out how to implement the rhetoric level skills with my 10th grade dd...... That's another story.....

Edited March 11, 2011 by Chris in PA

[1Togo]

Chris,

 

Since you have worked with IEW, how do you see the work of IEW's Units 1, 2, 3, and 4 as being different from SWB's outlining/writing from an outline sequence? Also, when you write your narrative summaries, do you plan to include a topic sentence? Ditto, the science outlining. Do you plan to begin with a topic sentence and find support and/or ideas that relate to that topic sentence?

 

We are still working through writing issues in our home, so I am interested in how others are applying SWB's ideas.

Edited March 11, 2011 by 1Togo

[Stacy in NJ]

SWB's writing lectures for Grammar and Logic stage kiddos. They're cheap and easy to understand. They'll provide an understandable path-way without driving you crazy. Writing for Grammar stage really isn't that complicated; you don't need a highly structured program.

 

http://www.welltrainedmind.com/store/audio-products/audio-lectures.html

 

I have appreciated reading this so much, as I feel very much in the same boat trying to figure out the way forward for my soon to be 5th grader. I also don't understand the method of going from writing outlines and basic paragraph stories, to then writing 5 paragraph essays. I began reading Lively Art of Writing today and what I am most aware of at this point is that dd9 is not ready to begin writing opinions and creating an essay around her opinion, vs fact vs others opinions. I too have been jumping all over the forum from post to post trying to figure out what the next step is! ;-) I see that the author of Pattern- Based Writing has posted asking for questions. I would be curious what he had to say about all of our questions, but I don't know how to link to this post in that one. ;-) I've been considering IEW SWI A only because I thought the DVDs might help.. but I also do a little MCT, a little Killgallon, a little WT1, a little WWE. It's like I am grabbing from a million different places hoping that somehow it will get dc to where they need to be. Or some perception of where I think others think they ought to be. Having just pulled them out of ps I know they were no where close to fulfilling their potential there .. but instead of spending all my time complaining about ps teachers these days, I just end up complaining and second guessing myself!:glare:

[Capt_Uhura]

I want to respond to some posts but I'm so far behind schedule today. Let me just say, for those that can wait, SWB's Writing With Skill will be your answer. I am a beta tester and the writing in there worked well for my son. I just wish right now I had a full year's worth of the program. I think my goal over the next week, is to write my own writing program using WWS as a model.

 

My confusion was this. We read great books to our kids so they can hear and see great writing and vocabulary. I felt like I need great models of essays so when we got to that point, we could read them analyze them and know what the goal was. But adults don't write 5 paragraph essays. I've looked at books of adult essays and they would be too much for my logic stage student. Hence the search was on for a curriculum that would have good examples. Kalmia was talking w/ a teacher and she said they don't use models in PS to teach writing. The kids really have no idea what they are doing or how to effectively communicate their thoughts. I think once you have a model and are proficient at it, it's easy to branch off and make it your own and add your own personality to it. As opposed to taking a bunch of writing from a student and then trying to mold it into some sort of effective form.

 

I am convinced the WTM method works. However, my black hole was needing good resources for teaching good paragraphs and essays with good examples so that I can teach on the fly across the curriculum the way 8FilltheHeart, KarenAnne, Correlano teaches. I've seen that work for my boys in other areas and it works well for them. For example, we did a bit of SWR enough to learn the method well. NOw, when we have trouble words, we apply SWR markings to it, discuss the rule and it sticks. Rather than doing a hodge podge of words with no meaning b/c DC isn't using those words in his writing.

 

SO it all boils down to MY learning about writing.

 

One thing that worked well in the past was I outlined a show we were watching. It was the discovery of Artipithicus. I showed DS how using that outline, even weeks or months later, I could write a paragraph from that outline. I will do that today when we watch our program on Khufu and the Great Sphinx and then have them write a paragraph from my outline.

 

So my current line-up, WWS-method, SWB logic stage MP3, MCT for the love getting back to Paragraph Town once we've gotten more proficient with paragraphs, Image Grammar and Killgallon for sentence structure and painting with words, PBW for framework, and then LToW for persuasive essays. My 5th grader is about a fourth through WWE4 so I have narration and dictation covered for the rest of the year.

[1Togo]

Capt,

 

So, am I understanding this correctly? You are writing outlines of sources and writing from the outlines as suggested by SWB. You are writing assignments from PT. You are using Image Grammar and Killgallon for work with sentence structure. You are also using LTW for persuasive essays, and you are using PBW. How do you schedule all of this? A few more questions. If WWS is the answer, can't you just repeat the material across the curriculum? Doesn't WWS include outlining, writing from outlines, sentence work, editing suggestions, etc.? Have your sons already mastered everything in the WWS materials that you have received? If SWB intends for WWS to be a logic-stage curriculum, then the materials should work for several years. I realize that you can't reveal the contents, but I am more confused than ever.

Edited March 11, 2011 by 1Togo

[1Togo]

Stacy,

 

I think the confusion lies in SWB's logic-stage suggestions. At this point, her audio lectures suggest writing outlines and then writing from those outlines; i.e. narrative summaries, as the only logic-stage work other than short essays/answers for a set of questions on fiction and biographies. In the past, SWB has recommended this as well a writing curriculum. Since she is working on a logic-stage writing curriculum, it's obvious the outline writing isn't all she feels is necessary. I guess everyone will need to muddle along until that is published.

[Sweet Home Alabama]

Stacy,

 

I think the confusion lies in SWB's logic-stage suggestions. At this point, her audio lectures suggest writing outlines and then writing from those outlines; i.e. narrative summaries, as the only logic-stage work other than short essays/answers for a set of questions on fiction and biographies. In the past, SWB has recommended this as well a writing curriculum. Since she is working on a logic-stage writing curriculum, it's obvious the outline writing isn't all she feels is necessary. I guess everyone will need to muddle along until that is published.

 

 

Has SWB hinted at a possible release date for Writing With Skill? I wonder if it will be available for next school year.

[1Togo]

I called the office some months ago, and they said it might be ready for next school year. No definite date.

[Create Your Ritual]

To the previous poster who was reading Jane Austen for the first time. I too was in your place a few months ago. Here is the thread regarding it, if you are interested.

http://welltrainedmind.com/forums/showthread.php?t=216272&highlight=musings+jane+austen

 

Also, here is the blog post I wrote about it at the time.

http://lettheodysseybegin.blogspot.com/2010/10/few-weeks-back-lee-and-i-watched-movie.html

 

I also found the language fascinating. ;-)

[Sweet Home Alabama]

So my current line-up, WWS-method, SWB logic stage MP3, MCT for the love getting back to Paragraph Town once we've gotten more proficient with paragraphs, Image Grammar and Killgallon for sentence structure and painting with words, PBW for framework, and then LToW for persuasive essays. My 5th grader is about a fourth through WWE4 so I have narration and dictation covered for the rest of the year.

 

Capt Uhura, would you explain how you schedule these?

[Capt_Uhura]

Capt,

 

So, am I understanding this correctly? You are writing outlines of sources and writing from the outlines as suggested by SWB. You are writing assignments from PT. You are using Image Grammar and Killgallon for work with sentence structure. You are also using LTW for persuasive essays, and you are using PBW. How do you schedule all of this? A few more questions. If WWS is the answer, can't you just repeat the material across the curriculum? Doesn't WWS include outlining, writing from outlines, sentence work, editing suggestions, etc.? Have your sons already mastered everything in the WWS materials that you have received? If SWB intends for WWS to be a logic-stage curriculum, then the materials should work for several years. I realize that you can't reveal the contents, but I am more confused than ever.

 

No not all at once! Currently, my 5th grader is doing WWE4. We did MCT PT up to lesson 11 where the paragraphs and essays started. I decided at that point that we needed some quick and dirty paragraph structure. We worked through Paragraph Writing Made Easy (well, we will finish it this week - which is outlining, notetaking, writing from an outline - very easy compared to what DS had to do in WWS beta). We picked up PWME after we finished WWS beta. We will finish out the year with my own assignments from our history and science based on WWS beta. To answer your question, yes, I will continue w/ WWS beta but of course, that means I have to find the time to write it up. If it's not pre-planned out for me, it won't get done. Contractors will be in the house for the next month finishing our basement so I think things will be a mess around here w/ all the noise.

 

Has my son mastered WWS material? No. It's something we would continue for the next several years. I believe on her blog, SWB said WWS level 5 covers grade 5-7. Now I don't know if that means it's fine for a 5th-7th grader or if it means WWS level 6 will cover grades 7-8? I don't know.

 

 

We are also doing Killgallon Sentence Composing for Elementary School. We do the rearranging parts orally. The assignments where DS has to write his own unique sentences based on the model, I have him write those. I aim to finish this book this school year. We've basically taken the past several weeks for writing workshop and history and science have been on hold. Next week, we will start back w/ history and science and begin outlining from those (K12HO, WOrld in Ancient Times Series). K12HO student pages have several paragraphs and even an essay coming up so that will be our writing focus. I'll use PBW as a framework for writing, making up my own prompts to fit either their interest or content areas and applying the techniques to K12HO paragraphs etc.

 

Over the summer we will get back to Druidawn and during that time I'll cover dialogue, descriptive passages, etc. and do MCT Voyage level poetry.

 

In the Fall, hopefully we'll pick up MCT PT again and do some of the discussions and writing assignments. We may also do Killgallon Grammar for Middle School. We'll go through Grammar Voyage, Practice Voyage. I'll have to assess where his writing skills are at the time to see if WWS will be needed when it comes out. I know we'll do the last part of WWS.

 

That's as far ahead as I will plan. I know LToW and Essay Voyage is in the plan but maybe next year or the year after.

 

I've tabled essays for now. Originally, DS was perhaps going back to school in the Fall for middle school and after my DF said that they need to be able to write a 5 paragraph essay by the end of 5th grade, I started researching essays. I at least now have clarity on essays, I have my resources on hand so when DS is ready, I'll be ready. I'm compiling a document with good essays from the WTM board and from other books and websites that we can discuss.

 

I think maybe some of the confusion w/ WTM2009 and the MP3s might lie in the teacher. So while MP3s suggest that narration, dictation, outlining, re-writing from an outline are enough yet WTM2009 gives additional writing curriculum such as IEW or WS.....I think if the teacher knows how to teach writing, how to structure paragraphs, he can teach using only narration, dictation, outlining, and re-writing from outlines. For those of us that can't do that (YET - I feel like in a few years I will be able to go it alone w/out a curriculum), we need a curriculum to spell out for us, good paragraph structure so we can guide DC in that when he's re-writing from that outline.

[Testimony]

My very short answer is....

 

 

 

We do not stick to writing programs because most of them stink.

 

Faithe

 

:iagree: You took the words right out of my mouth.

 

I have to say this. I have learned over the years in my own life the more I write the better I got at it. That is why I struggle with writing programs. I realize that I have wasted more time teaching them the method than actually have them write. I think that if I spent my time just letting them write and then keep rewriting, they would learn to write on their own. Writing is a skill. If you keep at it long enough, you will improve. I mean if Be Franklin actually learned to write by spending time copying newpaper articles for years. I wonder if we are going down the wrong path.

 

I have a friend that says National Geographic writes great articles. I have looked at them. Do you think that your child would learn to write if you went to the library with your child and had them copy the articles from National Geographic and Wall Street Journal or Newsweek? It would save you a lot of money. But when you think about it, that is exactly what Ben Franklin did. Also, Fredrick Douglas did this in order to learn how to write. I think that there is power in copying, rewrite, etc. You don't need to jump from program to program to do that. I am finding them to be wastes of time and they do stink.

 

Blessings,

Karen

http://www.homeschoolblogger.com/testimony

[Create Your Ritual]

I would agree Capt. Uhura with everything you said. ;-) I think for myself, the dc are still at the stage where we are building sentences and vocabulary and grammar skills. They do narrations and dictation and copywork and write summaries in science and history. We also are using WT1 right now and they enjoy retelling the fables. I think I am moving in the same general direction as you are with using WWS, MCT, LToW, Essay Voyage, and now have been looking at PBW as well. I would like to have these on hand so that next year when dd is outlining she has some idea of how to form a paragraph from it. But I think I may get to that point and stay there a while, while we continue building sentence style and playing with sentence structure.

 

Yesterday when I was in panic mode, I started searching around for quick workbooks such as PWME or Scholastic Paragraph Writing. Did you think that a quick study like that gave your dc a general idea of how to structure paragraphs? What has been the most helpful for you? Does WWS do the same, and that is what you are mostly using for paragraph structure and outlining? I am just trying to figure out if these short workbooks have a place in the schedule, or just become busywork that do not really stick. So, I wondered what you thought was the most helpful.

[1Togo]

Capt,

 

Thanks for taking the time to write about how you play to weave together all the approaches that you like. However, I don't think the confusion about WTM 2009 and the audio lectures lies in the teacher. The work of making an outline of a source and then writing from that outline is vastly different than the work of writing original paragraphs and multi-paragraph pieces. Since SWB suggests writing sentence outlines, it isn't too difficult to take the sentences from the outline and put them in paragraph form. If the student has written a good outline; i.e. Roman numerals are the topic sentences and everything else is the support, then their work is done other than adding transition if necessary. Outlining a source and then writing from that outline is imitation. At some point, the student needs the skills to step away from imitation. The issue is identifying and teaching those skills.

Edited March 11, 2011 by 1Togo

[Capt_Uhura]

So my current line-up, WWS-method, SWB logic stage MP3, MCT for the love getting back to Paragraph Town once we've gotten more proficient with paragraphs, Image Grammar and Killgallon for sentence structure and painting with words, PBW for framework, and then LToW for persuasive essays. My 5th grader is about a fourth through WWE4 so I have narration and dictation covered for the rest of the year.

 

Capt Uhura, would you explain how you schedule these?

 

Image Grammar is more a reference for me so it's not scheduled. I'm reading it so I can impart that info to DS when it comes up. So while reading Wind in the Willows (which I have a thread about here), I can discuss the effect of the adjectives out of order or the absolutes. Killgallon is sort of the workbook version of Image Grammar. Image Grammar is the love and Killgallon is the workhorse. We do about two pages each day of Killgallon Sentence Composing for Elementary and much of it so far we've done orally.

 

We did MCT PT at the start of the year so we were finished with it, up to lesson 10, when we started WWS beta.

 

WWS was scheduled for 4 days per week. Some days were a quick narration and others were more meaty, sometimes taking us 2days for the lesson even though she suggested one day. It overlapped w/ WWE4 a bit.

 

After finishing WWS beta, we started back w/ PWME and will finish that next week. It's easy compared to WWS...not sure why we're doing it except that it's pick up and go and it's independent writing practice for DS. The outlines are easy and he finds it easy to re-write from the outlines in PWME. WWS beta was definitely more challenging.

 

So a few weeks ago, I got PBW. We've been dabbling in that. We're up to pattern 5 I think.

 

So that is where we are right now. Writing takes up a significant portion of the day....at least an hour to 1.5hrs. He enjoys composing his own sentences based on the models in Killgallon so that is independent for him. The other parts we do together orally and with discussion. For WWE4, he reads the passages, briefly tells me what he is going to say, then writes his own narrations in full.

 

For spelling we've been using How To Teach Spelling which was a nice quick and dirty review of all the spelling rules. I didn't use it no where near they way is intended but it seems to work for my boys.

 

LToW - I'm learning how to use it now, I'm not using it w/ DS. That one has a learning curve so I'll spend the summer sinking my teeth into it, working through it on my own. I'll probably have DS take the LToW class through Circe Institute when the time comes so we can learn it together. I'll also spend the summer reading through MCT PT assignments and Essay voyage.

 

I'm reading the Lively Art of Writing right now as well.

 

Does that answer your questions?

[1Togo]

Karen,

 

Ben Franklin is often used as an example for imitation as writing instruction. However, I think it's reasonable to keep in mind that Ben Franklin was a genius. He analyzed and assessed his sources. He even mentions trying to better the model. He could only do that because he understood strong writing and could self-edit. Frederick Douglas was also exceptional; i.e motivated and highly intelligent. Many children, on the other hand, will outline the source and write from that outline without any reflection about the quality of the source. So, if the source stinks, their writing stinks. I saw this often when I taught IEW. Mothers using the curriculum often said their children could produce good pieces using "canned" sources, but when they hit the messy world of library sources, they couldn't write.

Edited March 11, 2011 by 1Togo

[Capt_Uhura]

 

Yesterday when I was in panic mode, I started searching around for quick workbooks such as PWME or Scholastic Paragraph Writing. Did you think that a quick study like that gave your dc a general idea of how to structure paragraphs? What has been the most helpful for you? Does WWS do the same, and that is what you are mostly using for paragraph structure and outlining? I am just trying to figure out if these short workbooks have a place in the schedule, or just become busywork that do not really stick. So, I wondered what you thought was the most helpful.

 

You know....I don't know. We're working through PWME. Is it busy work? Well, I would say it's a quick and dirty introduction. Get in, get it done fast and move on. yes, I would say PWME and PBW gave them a general idea of how to structure good paragraphs.

 

Ok, if I only had one kid, I would not do PWME. You can easily do it on your own in the content areas. But with 3 kids, sometimes you need a workbook to say, "Hey read this and then come tell me what you learned." Or it's easy to pick up and go and do while DD is at gymnastics class or speech therapy. :001_huh: Well, that's my honest opinion. Well, let's just say, if I could have thumbed through PWME at a bookstore, I could have learned everything I needed from it. I'm actually doing PWME with my 2nd grader. He is advanced in language arts and that's his area of strength but it's easy for him so far to grasp the concepts. He had no issue w/ finding a topic sentence placed at the end of a paragraph for example so he's understanding it fairly well.

 

Also, for DS10's narration in WWE4 last week, he had a topic sentence and supporting details and a closer so he is internalizing paragraph structure. I think that is more from doing PBW.

 

I just find that these workbooks are for quick and dirty exposure. Then the work is up to you. So while reading Wind in the WIllows...we discuss that great descriptive paragraph, or that great expository paragraph, or the participial phrases etc. It's work. It has all been solely about educating myself. Let me tell you, we have appreciated Wind in the Willows so much more having done MCT and now Image Grammar. So you're right, it's teaching the framework but also maintaining the beauty as well.

 

And after doing PBW, looking out for Secret A,B,C sentences and looking for different types of closers and why it worked and asking the question, "Did that closer bridge to the next paragraph? Did that topic sentence bridge from the previous paragraph?" Not every day even but often enough for it sink in. And find my boys will point these things out on their own.

 

I really think that we need to hone these skills w/ content that is not their own....so that when it comes time for original content, these skills (bridging paragraphs, introductions, closers, sentence order) are automatic.

 

For example, I noticed that when DS tries to do his dictations in cursive, he can not hold no where near as much info in his head as when he's writing in manuscript b/c he is expending energy and neurons on the cursive.

 

So much to learn.....I also need to add WRiter's Jungle to my list of study for myself this summer...... it's been awhile since I"ve read through it.

[Testimony]

Karen,

 

Ben Franklin is often used as an example for imitation as writing instruction. However, I think it's reasonable to keep in mind that Ben Franklin was a genius. He analyzed and assessed his sources. He even mentions trying to better the model. He could only do that because he understood strong writing and could self-edit. Frederick Douglas was also exceptional; i.e motivated and highly intelligent. Many children, on the other hand, will outline the source and write from that outline without any reflection about the quality of the source. So, if the source stinks, their writing stinks. I saw this often when I taught IEW. Mothers using the curriculum often said their children could produce good pieces using "canned" sources, but when they hit the messy world of library sources, they couldn't write.

 

You made an excellent point. So, how about I use myself as an example. I am not a genius. I stunk to high heaven as a writer. In college, I had to take remedial writing before I could take college level writing courses. After years of reading books, etc., I decided to maybe copy a few of the styles I liked. I would rewrite them until they became my own style. I started writing on my own. Shocking I became a good enough writer that I actually got published somewhere. In my writer's group, they think I am a good writer. I am not really. I just honed the craft until I got it. I never took a writing course. I stunk. I just started writing and writing until I got better. You can be a good writer if you just write and rewrite and rewrite.

 

Blessings,

Karen

http://www.homeschoolblogger.com/testimony

Edited March 11, 2011 by Testimony

[1Togo]

Karen,

 

I am glad to hear this method worked for you as an adult. My point was that most children don't have the ability to do this independently. Our dc haven't been able to do this. They did lots of outlining and writing from outlines (years, in fact, for one of them), but their writing did not improve. They didn't understand how to improve on the source unless I taught a technique. It was a method that did not work with them. However, I do understand other families have students with better ability than mine, and there are adults who have gone far past my personal writing efforts. Congratulations on publishing your work! That is a worthy accomplishment.

Edited March 11, 2011 by 1Togo

[Sweet Home Alabama]

Image Grammar is more a reference for me so it's not scheduled. I'm reading it so I can impart that info to DS when it comes up. So while reading Wind in the Willows (which I have a thread about here), I can discuss the effect of the adjectives out of order or the absolutes. Killgallon is sort of the workbook version of Image Grammar. Image Grammar is the love and Killgallon is the workhorse. We do about two pages each day of Killgallon Sentence Composing for Elementary and much of it so far we've done orally.

 

We did MCT PT at the start of the year so we were finished with it, up to lesson 10, when we started WWS beta.

 

WWS was scheduled for 4 days per week. Some days were a quick narration and others were more meaty, sometimes taking us 2days for the lesson even though she suggested one day. It overlapped w/ WWE4 a bit.

 

After finishing WWS beta, we started back w/ PWME and will finish that next week. It's easy compared to WWS...not sure why we're doing it except that it's pick up and go and it's independent writing practice for DS. The outlines are easy and he finds it easy to re-write from the outlines in PWME. WWS beta was definitely more challenging.

 

So a few weeks ago, I got PBW. We've been dabbling in that. We're up to pattern 5 I think.

 

So that is where we are right now. Writing takes up a significant portion of the day....at least an hour to 1.5hrs. He enjoys composing his own sentences based on the models in Killgallon so that is independent for him. The other parts we do together orally and with discussion. For WWE4, he reads the passages, briefly tells me what he is going to say, then writes his own narrations in full.

 

For spelling we've been using How To Teach Spelling which was a nice quick and dirty review of all the spelling rules. I didn't use it no where near they way is intended but it seems to work for my boys.

 

LToW - I'm learning how to use it now, I'm not using it w/ DS. That one has a learning curve so I'll spend the summer sinking my teeth into it, working through it on my own. I'll probably have DS take the LToW class through Circe Institute when the time comes so we can learn it together. I'll also spend the summer reading through MCT PT assignments and Essay voyage.

 

I'm reading the Lively Art of Writing right now as well.

 

Does that answer your questions?

 

Yes, thank you!

Honestly, I think anyone could become quite intimidated with teaching writing. We've used SWB's middle school writing this year for the first time, and I think we've made progress. We're nowhere near being accomplished writiers around here, though. :001_huh:

 

I have been focusing on the basics, and I'm a bit unsure about how to teach the different kinds of writing: descriptive, compare/contrast, etc... Yet, I *think* these will come more easily after a basic foundation is laid. I am reminded of the time when my kids were in 1st-2nd grade or so. I tried teaching certain skills before they were developmentally ready, and I learned a huge lesson about maturity. They learned so much more with each new level of maturity. If I tried to teach something too soon, it was like beating my head against a wall.

 

It would be so easy to incorporate many books to supplement writing instruction, but when I look at our whole course load, there isn't time to spend 90 minutes on writing. So, the time element becomes part of the frustration.

 

It seems like SWB's middle school writing *might* be akin to "slow and steady gets them ready". I sure hope so. Otherwise, writing might take more time and money than I have to spend. I know that sounds terrible, but I am really amazed when I hear of so many trying multiple writing curricula but being unable to find just the right one.

Edited March 11, 2011 by Sweet Home Alabama

[5LittleMonkeys]

 

It would be so easy to incorporate many books to supplement writing instruction, but when I look at our whole course load, there isn't time to spend 90 minutes on writing. So, the time element becomes part of the frustration.

 

 

 

This is the problem I was facing too. I am teaching 4 right now and next year we will be adding about 3 hours of instruction to my day. We will have writing assignments within science, history and literature already and then to add another 60 to 90 minutes of writing instruction on top of that...there is just no way I could do it. I'm hoping that by modifying the lessons, from all those wonderful programs I have, to be taught using our regular writing will save us a lot of time.

[Create Your Ritual]

As I have reviewed different writing curriculum, I am finding that I am less impressed and apt to use writing instruction that in any way looks like it could be used in a classroom. If there are workbooks that talk about writing friendly letters vs complaint letters, or using this scheme or that scheme to come up with a topic to write about then I just shut down. My kids will look at me like, "Do we HAVE to do this?" I don't KNOW what to write about. WT/WWE/and narrations with science and history have certainly taken that problem away for now, but as a pp said eventually I need to teach them different techniques in writing, how to form a solid paragraph, etc. I just want to be able to do it in a non gimmicky way that seems more valid to our studies and more interesting to them. (I hope that doesn't sound rude, it's not meant to be) Does that mean though that I personally have to work my way through some of those very options in order to gain the skills to teach? Capt Uhura, what does PBW look like when it comes to writing assignments? Can you give me a sample exercise from one of your lessons? Have you been able to make them relevant with what you are studying?

 

I would also say that with regards to MCT, my kids enjoy many of his writing assignments in Island. This morning they took a simple sentence like The Cat Slept and turned it into a larger sentence using prep. phrases.... ie. In the moonlight the cat on the fence slept with his blanket. (I know it's not rocket science, but they are learning to build larger sentences using prep. phrases). So, I AM hoping that MCT walks me through paragraph building next year in the TOWN level. Does anyone know if IEW does the same thing with building paragraphs with topic sentence, supporting, conclusion? I have been wondering if something like his Medieval History Based Writing would incorporate the history we were studying with the writing lessons, and get them eventually to where I would like them to be.

[Stacy in NJ]

about Logic stage writing. Muddle along is about right. :001_smile:

 

Stacy,

 

I think the confusion lies in SWB's logic-stage suggestions. At this point, her audio lectures suggest writing outlines and then writing from those outlines; i.e. narrative summaries, as the only logic-stage work other than short essays/answers for a set of questions on fiction and biographies. In the past, SWB has recommended this as well a writing curriculum. Since she is working on a logic-stage writing curriculum, it's obvious the outline writing isn't all she feels is necessary. I guess everyone will need to muddle along until that is published.

[Sweet Home Alabama]

From SaDonna:

 

I have been wondering if something like his Medieval History Based Writing would incorporate the history we were studying with the writing lessons, and get them eventually to where I would like them to be.

 

 

From Sweet Home Alabama:

 

SaDonna, my kids used the IEW Early Americal History Based Writing last year. It was our first introduction to IEW and, consequently, a bit overwhelming...... but good.

 

I watched all of the videos. My kids watched only some. I taught the lesson every Monday, and they handed in their papers on schedule, every Friday. We learned A LOT! But, that knowledge came with a price. For us, the pace was VERY fast. One year with IEW was enough for them even though it really was very good.

 

With hindsight, I think I could have done a better job. I had a 4th grader (9-10 year old- turned 10 in Jan.) doing 5-paragraph essays too soon. He was easily frustrated, and I made him do them anyway..... believe me, I helped him, but I made the mistake of letting the curriculum manage me instead of me being the manager of it.

 

My 6th grader was much better able to handle the work. The difference in their levels of maturity clearly affected what was developmentally appropriate.

 

My younger child should have been writing on the "A-level". In his school work, he was working on a 5th grade level, so I assumed he would be able to do the "B-level" work. ("A" level was meant for a young elementary age, and "B" level was geared toward upper elementary.)

 

I think the history based writing books would be a great idea especially if you already know the way IEW works. Then, I would just say to monitor the pace and make the assignments fit the individual student.

 

If you are not familiar with the TWSS, just study ahead of time and be careful about your expectations for your kids.

 

We definitely use IEW concepts within the SWB middle school writing that we've been practicing this year. Even though IEW was tough last year, overall, it set a course for our writing this year. I think it was a success.

[Robin in DFW]

I'm reading with great interest...

 

I am in the same situation as all of you...too many programs to muddle through...too many different methodologies...just too much...sigh...

 

We do the writing assignments (sometimes) from our lit guides. We do the outlines, rewrites from outlines for SOTW 4. We do essay-type answers for SOTW 4 tests, lit guides and science.

 

I have owned or currently own every. single. writing. program. ever. made.

 

I have spent, most likely, thousands of dollars on programs that go unused, unread...some even unopened...took 'em straight to the resale or resold them online.

 

SWB's methods are the easiest to implement. BUT...like several of you mentioned...when to teach different types of writing is niggling away at the back of mind...oy...

 

I have this book called "Writing in 15 Minutes a Day". It seems to break down "how" to write an essay pretty decently...step by step chunks for the student to follow. I do think it is very doable, but formulaic. I suppose if the idea is to just get them to be able to write that type of paper for whenever it's needed...it's fine.

 

As a child I wrote, wrote, wrote...all the time...pet care guides, "Little House" type stories, lists, whatever. I had Big Chief tablets FULL of writing. It befuddles me when my son doesn't have any idea what to write---even with a prompt.

 

I downloaded The Writer's Jungle (which I owned some years ago, but sold) so I can read through it again. I also bought Pattern-Based Writing some months ago and have just finally gotten around to even looking at it. It's awfully busy, isn't it???

 

Julie Bogart's ideas are what I want writing to be like for my son. I want him to enjoy it without stupid prompts and writing assignments that have nothing to do with his daily subjects.

 

I guess I am paralyzed...I try and try to implement things...for about a week and then on the shelf they go (or out the door, or in the trash). He hates them, I hate them. My dd18 told me recently she was never too fond of the writing programs...they didn't help at all. What helped her was the physical and mental act of writing, writing and writing some more...for all subjects...all types of papers...from simple essays, paragraphs, short answers to 15-page research papers to SAT writing prompts. AND...having a decent writing handbook to reference for the different types of papers with samples.

 

The thing is...my ds writes pretty well. He uses decent spelling and grammar. He uses varied and interesting sentences. He needs to work on organization and types of writing. Maybe I'm wanting more than is age-appropriate at this point. I guess I just see his sister producing papers with ease and I feel like he should do the same...he's 13...she's 18...I know...

 

blech...

[Chris in PA]

I'm reading with great interest...

 

AND...having a decent writing handbook to reference for the different types of papers with samples.

 

 

 

Robin,

Did you find a writing handbook that you liked? I think this would be a good thing to have on hand.

 

Thanks

[Colleen in NS]

Ultimately I am considering that maybe 'I' just need therapy, rather than a better writing curriculum! :tongue_smilie:

 

:lol::lol: Don't we all (need therapy for somethingorother)! I have to admit that while I still stay over here in my little corner of WTM/lectures writing instruction, I still panic slightly when I read about the fact that many others here are taking from this book and that program.....I still always wonder what I am missing by not looking at all these different programs more intently. But I stay in my corner, or I get too overwhelmed.

 

Colleen .... I understand what you're saying...those have been where are my thoughts are heading. What I've been in search of is a good resource. Here are great paragraphs and here is why they are great. So that when DC is writing those narrations in history, science, and literature, I can guide him in writing good paragraphs. I was looking for the same for essays as a self study for myself now before I'm there w/ DS. But as you can tell from my other thread "What is academic writing?" I'm all over the board with that one. All the essays I found as excellent examples I saw seem non-academic to me.

 

What about "just" reading good books, figuring out *why* you think they are good (or why this particular passage stands out to you), and talking about it? Pick it apart to see why it appeals - is it the vocab? The grammar structure? The sentence variety? What is it that engages your brain or your heart? Talk about those things. And when your child writes a paragraph (or several paragraphs or whatever), and you are then going over it with him/her, ask him/her questions about what was written, if something is not clear. I can't remember if SWB talked about this in the writing lectures, but I know a common theme written about in WTM logic stage section is that logic stage is all about *talking* with your child. Drawing out what is on their minds - helping them to put their thoughts into words - sometimes using diagraming to "fix" sentences, not just as a fun grammar exercise, but as a way to help them pin down exactly what it is they are trying to say (write).

 

while those skill building exercises teach a lot of the mechanics of writing they don't teach a lot about word usage, using clauses and phrases, sentence variety, persuasive, descriptive, etc. types of writing. Those things we want our dc to know about so that they can write elegantly and with some style and can write accordingly based on their audience. Perhaps an extremely language intuitive student would pick up on those things from the models that they are working with but my dc aren't those students.

 

Would any of the above that I wrote help?

 

Also, I am finding that the combination of regular reading of good books plus grammar study (plus the teaching-writing-structure) helps with all of what you wrote. No one book or program has told me that doing this/this/and this exercise will help me teach about word usage/using clauses and phrases/sentence variety in the day's history composition. But by following the WTM instructions to go through a grammar program, read good books and talk about them, talk to my kids all the time and ask them questions to help them reason/get their thoughts out about whatever, and do outlines/etc. regularly; I started to figure out that this stuff all works together to accomplish a lot of what people are talking about here. Of course, I have to work at bringing it all together (by remembering to ask my son questions after he writes a composition, or looking at the grammar, etc..). But I guess I'm trying to say that a lot of what people are anxious about, is right there embedded in all the methods/resources in WTM. The actual WTM might not say something specific, and specifics might not be addressed in SWB's lectures, but much is there in the smaller details. The only thing I couldn't figure out was how to go from outline/rewrite from other-authors, to outline-your-own-ideas/rewrite-from-that-to-make-your-own-composition. I finally concluded, after reading a R&S writing lesson on outline/rewrite, is that one way of outlining/rewriting your own is to read several sources, take notes, and organize those notes into an outline. I had to dig a little to figure that out, but again, I'm just glad that WTM has guided me in resource selections, or I'd be totally lost.

 

Grades 1-4 - copywork\dictation\narration\short responses to literary questions - work on sentence structure, word choice, phrases\clauses, sentence variety, etc.

Grades 5-8 - dictation\outlines\re-writing outlines\narrative summaries\longer literary summaries - work on paragraph structure, topic sentences, persuasive, descriptive, narrative, expository, etc. types of writing, also begin showing them how they can use these same types of outlines to organize their own writing.

Grades 9-12 - Okay...I haven't exactly gotten as far in my thinking on this stage but I know by this time they should be proficient in the skills they've been working on so now they will be able to focus on a study of rhetoric and practice and refine essay writing and research papers and work on their own personal style of writing and continue to experiment with word usage, voice, etc.

 

Also, tell me what you think about my "plan". Are there any huge flaws in my thinking? Am I naive in thinking I can pull this off or am I correct in thinking that this may actually simplify things? Or is it too simple, meaning not enough? Be honest please...I want to get this right.

 

I think your plan is great, and I don't see any huge flaws.

[Colleen in NS]

I have several questions for those of you using SWB's writing an outline/writing an outline sequence.

 

1. Do you prepare separate lessons to teach your children how to write original topic sentences, how to develop ideas, and how to deal with noun and verb issues, etc.?

 

No. I'm not sure how I would "teach" how to write original topic sentences or how to develop ideas, because once my kids understand that a paragraph is a group of sentences that develop a single topic, it seems pretty simple to them, I think. (and they learned about this in our normal routine of studying R&S grammar) My dd10 is not yet up to being able to come up with a topic sentence and then developing it - she is still working on 3-4 sentence narration/summaries, and trying to remember to indent when she takes dictation of a paragraph. My ds13 is just now working on rewriting from outlines-of-other-authors, and I think because of the time he has spent analyzing paragraphs via outlining-other-authors, he has a pretty good idea of what a topic sentence should be doing in a paragraph, and then of developing that sentence. I'm seeing that show up in his rewrites-from-outlines. So I expect that skill to transfer over when he outlines his own thoughts and rewrites from those.

 

What do you mean by "noun and verb issues?" If you mean agreement, we just use our grammar training when going through the composition - I circle mistakes in red, and have ds try and figure out what is wrong so he can correct it. I do the same when dd is telling me a narration - I will correct something she says and have her repeat it back to me properly before I write it down for her.

 

2. How do you teach your children transition, descriptive elements, sentence variety, unity, etc.?

 

All of this is included in our grammar program - so when we've learned something in grammar study, I try to remember to point out errors in that issue in ds's rewrites-from-outlines. And he tries to remember to incorporate new skills in his writing. But his writing is also influenced by his years of reading good books, so I am not starting from scratch with these concepts when they are introduced via grammar - it's as if grammar study is just reinforcing what he has subconsciously noticed in his years of reading.

 

3. Do you only use one source for outlining or do you use a variety of sources?

 

Huge variety. World Book articles, library books on history, science, art/music history, etc.. To me, the purpose is to study how good authors put their paragraphs and sentences together, so I don't stick to one source.

 

4. Do you go over the sources with your children and point out writing styles and/or poor quality in the source?

 

Yes. Just in the course of reading aloud to them. Or just noticing things from everyday life reading. This is getting more natural to me, as I remember WTM's advice to "talk, talk, talk to your children."

 

5. Do you find that your children basically imitate the source or have they stepped away from imitation? Many of the history spines suggested by SWB are written like encyclopedias, which isn't powerful writing, so I am wondering if your children just mimic the style of the spine?

 

Because of the variety we use, they imitate various styles. Those history spines are just meant to be springboards - it's a suggestion to outline from one history spine, but I think that's meant to be a starting point only.

 

6. Can any of you compare SWB's outline writing sequence and IEW's Units 1/2 and Units 4/6? IEW Units 1/2 teach students to write a key word outline using every sentence of the source, but Units 4/6 teach the student to write an outline using a topic sentence and supporting facts. Of course, SWB teaches the sentence outline and IEW teaches kwo, but other than that, what is the difference?

 

n/a to me

 

7. Has anyone on the forum used only SWB's writing an outline/writing from an outline suggestion and launched a student into rhetoric writing? If so, were there any problems?

 

Ask about this on the high school boards - I know many there have done this successfully for years. JennW in SoCal comes to mind first, but I know I've read about others' successes over the years.

 

So yesterday I told my ds (7th grade) we were not going to "do writing" the rest of the year. We would be writing narrative summaries from either history or science several times a week and also be outlining from either history or science.

 

I am just now trying to remember to switch my mindset and my language with my kids to this same idea - we are not doing a "writing lesson" today - we are "doing a history outline" or a "science composition" or a "literature analysis" etc.. It goes over much better, and I think it accurately reflects what writing instruction will eventually lead to.

 

I think the confusion lies in SWB's logic-stage suggestions.

 

I think maybe some of the confusion w/ WTM2009 and the MP3s might lie in the teacher.

 

However, I don't think the confusion about WTM 2009 and the audio lectures lies in the teacher. The work of making an outline of a source and then writing from that outline is vastly different than the work of writing original paragraphs and multi-paragraph pieces. ...At some point, the student needs the skills to step away from imitation. The issue is identifying and teaching those skills.

 

I think you're both right - WTM does say use a writing program; the lectures say it's not always necessary; but neither of these really explicitly tells you how to teach going from rewriting-from-outlines-of-other-authors-writing to composing your own outline and then rewriting your own composition from that. That gap nagged at me a couple of years ago, which drove me to pour through my R&S TMs, and come to the conclusion I wrote to Aime about above. Again, it was just embedded in WTM's resources recs for grammar. And, I have a feeling there is an easier way to teach this, but I haven't figured it out yet. Which is what will drive me to keep reading these boards to see what others figure out. (I can't afford to buy all these different books, from which to figure it out, that you all talk about! :D) But if I don't, I know I have at least one method at my disposal now. And my plan is to try it out in a year or two with ds - I'm thinking with all the outline/rewrite practice, he will be ready to switch his mind over because he'll understand how to gather notes on important info. (from summarizing so much) and he'll understand how to organize an outline for himself (because of all the outlining/analyzing other authors' writings).

 

BTW, I do love to talk about this stuff and learn right along with everyone here - forgive me if I'm just not "getting" where some of you are with all this. I've not had the experience of taking my kids out of p.s., so some of what I say may not apply and I'm sure there is a mentality that I just sometimes miss.

[5LittleMonkeys]

 

BTW, I do love to talk about this stuff and learn right along with everyone here - forgive me if I'm just not "getting" where some of you are with all this. I've not had the experience of taking my kids out of p.s., so some of what I say may not apply and I'm sure there is a mentality that I just sometimes miss.

 

Colleen,

 

I don't think you are missing anything except maybe a lot of books you're not sure what to do with. I think you are keeping it simple and doing so beautifully. You and I have talked about writing in the past and you made so much sense to me in the past and now again. I kick myself in the bumm for not following your lead!

 

I can see what you are saying about the fact that a lot of the things we (I) struggle to cover can be found in R&S. I only have level 5 right now (I'm ordering 6 and 7 for next year) but I did pull out my old, beat up copy of Warriner's Grammar and was amazed at what a wealth of composition information I could be gleaning out of it.

 

I also like what you said about just talking with your dc about their writing. This is the same idea I was having about how I want to do things. I want us to have a dialog about their writing. Ask them what they think about this sentence or what message they were trying to convey in that passage, and then actually pull bits of their own compositions out to work on their writing instead of just pulling out a worksheet to work on sentence variety, for example. Does this remind me of the Socratic method of discussing literature? Something about it does... or maybe my brain is just too befuddled.

[Colleen in NS]

Colleen,

 

I don't think you are missing anything except maybe a lot of books you're not sure what to do with. I think you are keeping it simple and doing so beautifully. You and I have talked about writing in the past and you made so much sense to me in the past and now again. I kick myself in the bumm for not following your lead!

 

I can see what you are saying about the fact that a lot of the things we (I) struggle to cover can be found in R&S. I only have level 5 right now (I'm ordering 6 and 7 for next year) but I did pull out my old, beat up copy of Warriner's Grammar and was amazed at what a wealth of composition information I could be gleaning out of it.

 

I also like what you said about just talking with your dc about their writing. This is the same idea I was having about how I want to do things. I want us to have a dialog about their writing. Ask them what they think about this sentence or what message they were trying to convey in that passage, and then actually pull bits of their own compositions out to work on their writing instead of just pulling out a worksheet to work on sentence variety, for example. Does this remind me of the Socratic method of discussing literature? Something about it does... or maybe my brain is just too befuddled.

 

Thank you, Aime, you're very kind.

 

Socratic....I haven't read books specifically about Socratic discussion, but from what I've read on the boards, it does sound very similar to what I am thinking and writing about here (that I've gleaned from WTM etc.). It's the talking and asking questions to help my kids clarify their communication. Is that Socratic?

[Capt_Uhura]

WT/WWE/and narrations with science and history have certainly taken that problem away for now, but as a pp said eventually I need to teach them different techniques in writing, how to form a solid paragraph, etc. I just want to be able to do it in a non gimmicky way that seems more valid to our studies and more interesting to them. (I hope that doesn't sound rude, it's not meant to be) Does that mean though that I personally have to work my way through some of those very options in order to gain the skills to teach? Capt Uhura, what does PBW look like when it comes to writing assignments? Can you give me a sample exercise from one of your lessons? Have you been able to make them relevant with what you are studying?

 

I would also say that with regards to MCT, my kids enjoy many of his writing assignments in Island. This morning they took a simple sentence like The Cat Slept and turned it into a larger sentence using prep. phrases.... ie. In the moonlight the cat on the fence slept with his blanket. (I know it's not rocket science, but they are learning to build larger sentences using prep. phrases). So, I AM hoping that MCT walks me through paragraph building next year in the TOWN level. Does anyone know if IEW does the same thing with building paragraphs with topic sentence, supporting, conclusion? I have been wondering if something like his Medieval History Based Writing would incorporate the history we were studying with the writing lessons, and get them eventually to where I would like them to be.

 

Unfortunately, MCT does not walk you through building paragraphs. It talks about and gives good examples of paragraphs w/ connecting words etc but it's not a "this is how you teach good paragraph structure" program. It's "Here is what good paragraphs look like, now go write one." Don't get me wrong, I love MCT and wouldn't give it up anything but I needed more handholding. As I've said in other threads, MCT gives me the love and I need something else to get me the nuts and bolts.

 

Paul/PBW emailed me regarding some comments I made about writing prompts. He said I was welcomed to post his email on the board. Here is what he said.

 

"Writing Prompts - Currently I show up for #1 for the search “Spring

Writing Prompts.” People seem to like the prompts I have posted, however I

feel prompts should really come from the curriculum you are studying and

what the students want to write about. In the early stages, the entire PBW

program was quickly explained out of my mouth and on the whiteboard. Most

of the time was spent with students writing and then discussing. Writing

prompts came from the books we were reading and what students wanted to

write about.

 

If people don’t like the prompts in PBW, they are missing the intent of

the program. I don’t even consider them prompts. I do want to find a way

to make this clear, but am currently at a loss for the proper way to

express it. At some stage I would probably try to improve the “prompts,”

however, I think that would likely cause problems, as well."

 

So what I plan to do is to write out prompts similar to PBW and have DC write paragraphs from that. PBW starts out w/ giving the topic and 3 details. Then you move to topic only w/ no details. The DC supplies the 3 details. So I will things like:

 

From Chemistry:

Topic: atom

1. proton

2. electron

3. neutron

 

From history:

Boats of the Great Pyramid

1. Boats

2. Djedefra

3. Khufu

 

I see the format of PBW topics/details being just like re-writing from an outline...a keyword outline.

Edited March 11, 2011 by Capt_Uhura

[Capt_Uhura]

What helped her was the physical and mental act of writing, writing and writing some more...for all subjects...all types of papers...from simple essays, paragraphs, short answers to 15-page research papers to SAT writing prompts. AND...having a decent writing handbook to reference for the different types of papers with samples.

 

 

 

I thought I had found one. It's the Webster's Student WRiting Handbook 5th edition. Unfortunately, in the new edition, they removed nearly all of the samples and put them online instead. :confused: But it went over every type of writing and gave examples. What I liked was that it would take the same topic and show a paper from a social science perspective, a science perspective, a technical perspective. IT was great to see how just coming at a topic from a different angle, you would get very different paragraphs/essays. So now the only give one paragraph/essay for each type, and then tell you to see the website for the other 3 samples.

 

It also gives examples and then analyzes them. I think it also gives a few paragraphs for you to discuss and then it rewrites the poor paragraph to illustrate the difference.