Reya Posted March 8, 2011 Share Posted March 8, 2011 Well, my math program plan changed as DS got super-duper whiny and clingy with NEM 1. Apparently, me doing a lot of support and explanation of the written work meant in his mind that it was my job to hand-hold him through the actual problems. More than anything, he fought me tooth and nail about actually writing his work down. While I had some sympathies, due to dis age, the fact is that he CANNOT constitutionally have me be just his scribe because in seconds, he starts leaning on me to do things for him he could have done in his sleep a year before. Finally, I threw in the towel and bought Harold Jacobs' Elementary Algebra because that's something he could do nearly alone pretty easily. Having used the two side-by-side, I have to say that it's night and day. (We'd actually gotten pretty far into the NEM when I gave it up, so we'd reached the chapters on actual algebra.) If Jacobs' is an acceptable "regular" course, NEM is ABSOLUTELY an honors course. The level of reasoning required form the student is so far higher that it's hardly the same course for the bits that do cover the same topics--even as it covers the same materials! A student who pays attention will get enormous depths from NEM that Jacobs does not even scratch the surface of. Jacobs is crystal-clear. It's concise. It's thorough. It's solid. It leads students from one point to the next with admirable directness. I really think any parent can teach from this book! NEM is sophisticated and demanding. It's sly, and it teases the able students by challenging them to constantly discover easier ways of doing the work. It leads kids to high levels of self-discovery. It's a guide up the same mountain, but Jacobs takes the day-hike with illustrated markers and scenic overlooks, and NEM takes the north face with all kinds of jaunts into fascinating and challenging territory. Both kids will make it to the top of the same mountain--but the NEM kid will be ten times the athlete. I would never, ever hesitate again to call NEM honors. What DS is doing now? Yeah. NOT honors. I'm happy with it, he's learning self-sufficiency, and the burden for him of writing the answers is a fraction of what it was with NEM. But it's not the same trip. Not at all. I really do feel the need to supplement Jacobs, though, in a way I never would with NEM. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
4everHis Posted March 8, 2011 Share Posted March 8, 2011 Are you saying your 8 year old is doing Alg.? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reya Posted March 8, 2011 Author Share Posted March 8, 2011 (edited) Are you saying your 8 year old is doing Alg.? Slowly, yes. He has virtually no problem with the concepts--only twice has he really had to think hard on lessons. The writing is quite hard for him physically, though. He's very dysgraphic. Getting him to leave spaces on his graph paper between lines and next to letters so that his work is legible has actually been the biggest battle, next to, "YOU MUST WRITE IT DOWN IF YOU CAN'T DO IT IN YOUR HEAD IN 30 SECONDS!!!!" He'd rather stare at the paper for 10 minutes than do 30 seconds of writing. I have no idea how to get him over that! He calls me over at least twice during his math every day, and 95% of the time, my answer is "Write it down," and miraculously, when he does, he gets it right, and it usually takes less than a minute. He does the reading for the lesson and sections 1 and 2 on day one, then 3 and 4 (the second with me--he can't do it alone without me at least explaining it) the next. Reviews take 2-3 days. #1 is taken as a review, #2 as a test. It will take him about 1.5 years to complete at this rate, but that's fine! It's a good pace for him. And it's all the writing he can really handle in math right now! Math's also where his ADHD interferes the most, so my job is mostly just to keep him from daydreaming by running a timer and distributing stickers and hot chocolate as earned for swiftness. He'll plow through 5 multi-part problems without stopping, then zone out for half an hour if not prodded along. Right now, I usually start his page numbers and draw most axes for him. That's it. I used to be really hung up on the idea of teaching to a child's intellectual level, period, but self-regulation and independence are important, too. Probably 20% of the mothers here would lynch me for unusual cruelty for "forcing" an 8-y-o to do algebra, and at least 10% would think I was a monster for tying academics to fine motor skills. And probably 30% think I'm lying entirely--I hid my son's age for nearly two years before saying "Forget it! Their problem is not my problem!" (I know a mother whose son was in college math at 8, so algebra doesn't seem that impressive--much less impossible--to me.) I'm long over it. So, take what I say about the curricula, and don't get hung up on details. :-) Edited March 8, 2011 by Reya Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EKS Posted March 8, 2011 Share Posted March 8, 2011 I found Jacobs to be a great introduction to algebra for my then 10yo (we spent two years on Jacobs and then went slowly through geometry and took a detour though Jacobs MHE). He is doing algebra II now and there have been absolutely no gaps. I'm looking forward to using Jacobs with my younger son next year. He has suspected dysgraphia (and he is young) and I'm pretty sure the writing is going to be the most challenging thing for him. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
homemomandnild Posted March 8, 2011 Share Posted March 8, 2011 My then 9 yr. old did Jacob's Algebra before starting NEM 1. That worked well for her. I'm considering Discovery math for my second child though? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reya Posted March 8, 2011 Author Share Posted March 8, 2011 Jacobs really is very good for that! There isn't too much writing for the amount of content. So I bet it'll go well! Like I said, the mountain peak really is the same (with the algebra portions of NEM versus a regular Alg I, then II progression). There is nothing insubstantial about it--it is a real algebra program in every way. It is very clear, and there are blessedly few pictures for distractable little boys to get sidetracked by. It just isn't the same mental workout as NEM! (Oddly enough, DS spontaneously brought up NEM for the first time in a long time. He whined that he liked NEM better--but then said he preferred the writing in Jacobs much better, on on the whole, he wanted to keep Jacobs!!!) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reya Posted March 8, 2011 Author Share Posted March 8, 2011 My then 9 yr. old did Jacob's Algebra before starting NEM 1. That worked well for her. I'm considering Discovery math for my second child though? Haven't heard of it... :001_smile: I might not want to! (No more choices! Please!) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
homemomandnild Posted March 8, 2011 Share Posted March 8, 2011 Singapore came out with Discovery Math to replace NEM a few years ago. It has more color, more student wxplanation and the lay out looks more appealing to my kids. However, it moves a little slower than NEM. Not sure if there's any other differences. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Julie of KY Posted March 8, 2011 Share Posted March 8, 2011 ... just a thought for the future. If you have a young advanced math child, then at some point you might want to look at Art of Problem Solving. At the moment my son is flying through NEM as an "easy" break from Art of Problem Solving. With a young child, you'll have to look at going deeper into some of the mathematics rather than rushing through everything too fast. Art of Problem Solving is great for taking the math inclined child to the next level and they also have books on counting and probability as well as number theory that isn't usually taught elsewhere. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EKS Posted March 8, 2011 Share Posted March 8, 2011 ... just a thought for the future. If you have a young advanced math child, then at some point you might want to look at Art of Problem Solving. At the moment my son is flying through NEM as an "easy" break from Art of Problem Solving. With a young child, you'll have to look at going deeper into some of the mathematics rather than rushing through everything too fast. Art of Problem Solving is great for taking the math inclined child to the next level and they also have books on counting and probability as well as number theory that isn't usually taught elsewhere. My plan is to use the AoPS number theory and counting and probability books after my son completes Jacobs Algebra. They look wonderful! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
G5052 Posted March 8, 2011 Share Posted March 8, 2011 We've done very well with it this year with a non-mathy kid who was on the young side. I would have loved to do NEM or Discovering Mathematics, but it was about picking my battles and choosing a decent algebra program that would work. Maybe I can convince my next one? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kendall Posted March 9, 2011 Share Posted March 9, 2011 I agree about the level of difficulty. I am loving doing both Foerster Algebra I and NEM with my 7th grader. We are taking 2 years. I didn't have that luxury with my older children. We go back and forth between the two books and since he is older I don't have the writing issues. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KAR120C Posted March 9, 2011 Share Posted March 9, 2011 Having used the two side-by-side, I have to say that it's night and day. (We'd actually gotten pretty far into the NEM when I gave it up, so we'd reached the chapters on actual algebra.) If Jacobs' is an acceptable "regular" course, NEM is ABSOLUTELY an honors course. The level of reasoning required form the student is so far higher that it's hardly the same course for the bits that do cover the same topics--even as it covers the same materials! A student who pays attention will get enormous depths from NEM that Jacobs does not even scratch the surface of. It was almost exactly a year ago.... And I still stand by my "not honors" designation for NEM. Not that it isn't extremely good, well-designed, rigorous, and everything else. I agree with you that it's a stronger program than Jacobs and that a student who goes that route will learn a lot more. But in the high schools around us, "honors" involves not only mastery of the set topics, but a greater number of topics -- some of the extra stuff that most curriculae don't get to at that level. I've taught from NEM, from Jacobs, and from Lial's, and I've tutored kids from our local high school, and for my own kid I went with NEM (and then Art of Problem Solving). I absolutely agree that it's the more challenging route. I'm not saying I think the local "honors" way is preferable. Only that if I were to go to the local universities with a transcript that said Honors Algebra, they would be expecting something different. Jacobs is crystal-clear. It's concise. It's thorough. It's solid. It leads students from one point to the next with admirable directness. I really think any parent can teach from this book! I'm not a huge fan of his distance-rate-and-time chapter, but other than that it is fairly clear. You'd be surprised though... there are kids who aren't up to Jacobs, and there are parents who aren't up to teaching it. That's where I get my tutoring clients. Well, my math program plan changed as DS got super-duper whiny and clingy with NEM 1. Apparently, me doing a lot of support and explanation of the written work meant in his mind that it was my job to hand-hold him through the actual problems. More than anything, he fought me tooth and nail about actually writing his work down. While I had some sympathies, due to dis age, the fact is that he CANNOT constitutionally have me be just his scribe because in seconds, he starts leaning on me to do things for him he could have done in his sleep a year before. Finally, I threw in the towel and bought Harold Jacobs' Elementary Algebra because that's something he could do nearly alone pretty easily. Sorry to take these quotes out of order..... but if I'm reading your past posts correctly, you've been doing NEM 1 for two years now... and you're looking at another year and half of Jacobs... If it's getting tiresome by now (I know it would be if I had been at it that long!) you might think about approaching algebra from a different direction. Instead of a whole algebra curriculum, how about problem solving (Math Olympiad, MathCounts)? or even geometry (Zome?) -- something where the algebraic concepts are used extensively, but which may be more interesting if all this time on curriculum-Algebra isn't moving you forward. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
G5052 Posted March 9, 2011 Share Posted March 9, 2011 I'm not a huge fan of his distance-rate-and-time chapter, but other than that it is fairly clear. You'd be surprised though... there are kids who aren't up to Jacobs, and there are parents who aren't up to teaching it. That's where I get my tutoring clients. I pulled out my college physics books for the distance-rate-and-time part, and it occurred to me not long ago that I don't know of any other parents locally who are teaching their own kids with it. That explains why people always look odd at me when I mention it. It really isn't that common. The biggie around here is Teaching Textbooks and of course Saxon, but I won't open that can of worms... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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