Gave kids CLE LA diagnostic testing, think I may cry..

[mommycheryl]

First, my kids are in ps. DD is in 7th, and in the AG (academically Gifted) LA program. DS is in 3rd and struggles with LA, especially writing. I try to add to their school work to fill gaps, but obviously not in LA. DS's writing grades this year and DD's first draft of a MAJOR science project/paper made me realize that if I can't hs, then I need to do some formal grammar with these kiddos.

 

Since DD is in 7th, I gave her the 500 Level test. She has only done 1/2, but her score is less than 50% and looking at the rest of the questions, I doubt it will increase. I feel sick right now. I wish that I had discovered WTM years ago. Her writing is so disorganized and she doesn't have any paragraphs, just one page and half paragraph. (It's a first draft, I keep reminding myself.) I want to help them, I need to help them, but I feel like I need to start her at the beginning and I worry that she will never get it all.

 

I'm just so upset and so overwhelmed with the whole idea. Have I waited too long? (And this doesn't even touch on my feelings on history, science, etc.) I don't even know where to start with her.:confused:

 

Any suggestions/advice would be greatly appreciated.

 

Cheryl

[FlockOfSillies]

Deep breaths...

 

It's going to be OK. You've caught it now, when you can do something about it. YES, there's still time! Many parents never realize that their college students can't write coherent sentences either.

 

Starting at the beginning is a good idea. When you're doing remedial work, you may find that you can move quickly through certain items, and more slowly through others. So you won't have to spend a whole year on certain topics.

 

There are lots of good grammar and writing programs out there, and you should try to place your dd in such a way that she starts with stuff that is relatively easy for her, to build her confidence, then move on to new material.

 

For specific recommendations, I can only give you info on what I've tried myself. FLL 3 or 4 would be a good place to start, or R&S 3. If you like CLE, then give her a lower level test and find out where she starts to falter. That will help you pinpoint her current level.

 

For writing, I can recommend WWE and IEW.

 

HTH.

[guateangel]

Stop! :grouphug:

 

Of course it's not too late!!

 

Take a deep breath.

 

You're a concerned mom and that is going to take your kids far. :)

 

I'm not a veteran HS'er, so I'll leave this for them to offer advice.

[Momling]

:iagree: I'd just add that if your public schools are like ours, your kids have just never had any grammar instruction before. Of course she's going to struggle with CLE 500, a program intended for kids who've done five years of grammar. Ignore the grade levels. There is nothing inherently graded about grammar or writing -- it's not consecutive and it surely isn't a race. You can learn grammar or how to write a paragraph when you're 8 or 88.

 

Unless you've got your heart set on CLE, I'd probably consider a book more appropriate for your 7th grader rather than going back too far in CLE. There are plenty of age appropriate options that start at the beginning.

[Quiver0f10]

:grouphug: Hang in there. It's better that you caught it now and are doing something about it now, rather than down the road.

[m0mmaBuck]

You aren't too late. You have caught it. Now you need to help them take a step back and get a firm foundation.

 

I pulled DS out of PS midway through 2nd grade and found he had no formal phonics or grammar foundation. I put him through CLE's placement tests and he landed in LU 103. We started at 100 and used FLL 1/2 in conjunction with the LU's. We breezed through a lot of FLL orally but he struggled (and hated) CLE LA. We switched to Rod and Staff this year and he is much happier.

 

Rod and Staff 3 English is probably a great place to start (it goes over the parts of speech, diagramming, sentence and paragraph structure). My DS9 become very frustrated with the workbook style of CLE (for English... he loves it for math... KIDS!) but has done very well with Rod and Staff. You can do lessons orally and assign just the parts you feel they need for practice. You can start them both together with the basics and then progress DD through faster once you know she grasps it.

 

Schoolhouse Rocks Grammar Rocks is great for getting the parts of speech stuck in their heads if you don't mind using them.

[ChandlerMom]

Deep breaths. One of the problems with giving a child a placement test for a different porgram is that it is...different. Clearly their ps is teaching to a different rubric (order), and that's not necessarily bad, just...different. Like following different paths to the same destination. :)

 

Since they are both in ps, the first thing I would do is talk with their teachers. Find out what they are teaching, where they think your child is and where they should be. Discuss areas where you can help your child at home.

 

Going off and deciding to add CLE to their load isn't going to be as effective as finding out what their program is and working to support that. Maybe they are more into getting ideas on the paper and not the organization part?

 

IMO a lot of writing programs are too much into teaching the mechanics and organization and smothers any creativity the kids might have. Two different elementary teachers I know have commented to me on that as well -- if kids worry about writing/spelling wrong they stick to small words, short sentences and the minimum total writing. Sometimes later is better. But you won't know what the ps' trying to do until you ask. Since they are in ps work WITH the teachers to help your kids excel; work within the priorities, rubrics, and program they are using.

 

Good luck!

[RobinF]

We are using Meaningful Composition for remedial writing work. I haven't been diligent in teaching writing and see the HUGE shortfalls now so we are doing a writing intensive until the end of school this year. We will do other subjects but we are really going to work on beefing up their writing.

[SilverMoon]

Momling said:

 

 

Edited May 18 by SilverMoon

[kristinannie]

I was in all honors and AP classes in school and got A's. I got 5's on my AP tests. Then I went to a good liberal arts college and took a 100 level English Lit class (one of my majors). On my first draft of my first paper, I got a D. I had never gotten a D in my life. I ALWAYS got A's on papers. My professor worked on my writing with me all semester and, by the end of the semester, my writing was wonderful. I had never had formal grammar, had never been taught how to write. I just got A's and went on my way in high school. So...it is never too late. You have definitely caught this early enough. You can still do something about it and you are a great mom for even going the extra mile!

 

:grouphug:

[Mallorie]

You are so, so not alone. I pulled my kids out of school for reasons other than academics because, like yours, they were "excelling". It was after they were home and I started the testing that I realized that they were lacking in some major areas. It's our first year, and my oldest ds is in 7th.

 

As what the others said, you're testing in CLE, a program that builds year after year. Mine also tested about where yours are. My 4th grader is doing CLE 400 series, so he's on target, but my 7th grader is doing the 400 series right along with him. I won't be continuing my 7th grader in it though. He's FLYING through it. As he's older, he's more proficient, picks things up quickly, so i'm not going to spend either of our time going back to 4th grade and doing five years of this. It's just not time or cost effective. I'm currently looking at Analytical Grammar to do for a year or two, and then concentrate fully on literature and writing. But as i'm still in research mode for that, I can't say it would be a good idea or not.

 

If you go with homeschooling: Honestly, start with one subject at a time. It's really difficult to plan out all subjects at this level, not knowing where they're at in their learning. I tried it, and have thrown a LOT of money away doing it. Figure out where they're at with math. Get them going strong with a program that fits them, then move to LA. In the meantime, read, read, read; both you and them. Read about homeschooling, different methods. Find your style. Have them read good literature. Cook with them, learn how to be together. Fellowship with other homeschoolers so you have support and can relax. You'll get there, even through the hard stuff, homeschooling is amazing. :)

 

If you keep them in school, plug into the afterschooling board here. I completely agree with whoever recommended to find out what program they are doing in school and work to enhance it. Please keep in mind that a lot of subjects for homeschooling are meant to be fairly independent at 7th grade level, so evaluate the merit of doing both hs and ps.

 

It's not too late, i'm doing it. :) We're surviving. The character changes in my kids alone since bringing them home has been worth gold.

[TracyR]

Most ps's don't use grammar anymore. They have kids write without knowing how to spell or use grammar. That's why children can go through school and into college and can't write worth beans. I don't agree with this style of teaching writing at all. If you misspell a word you see it that way and its very hard to 'fix' that problem. If you don't know grammar you can't write a coherent sentence. Period.

 

I remember as a child having lots of grammar practice and really didn't do any writing until at least 5 or 6th grade. It doesn't help if you don't know how to use grammar, where to put punctuation , or how to spell properly. A friend of mine was telling me how she used to edit papers for college students and the papers she got were just unreal. They literally did not know how to write at all.

So as a homeschooler she makes sure that her daughters have been grounded in grammar, punctuation and spelling before tackling writing and she says that now that her first daughter is in college it has all paid off.

 

As for the grade levels in CLE. Don't fret , or pay any attention to the numbers. Also remind your daughter that they are just numbers and nothing else. I remember last year my daughter was in 6th grade and she had to start with CLE 300. This was after using cyberschool in our state and they taught very little to no grammar. At first my oldest balked, but after we had the discussion that they are just numbers it meant nothing more to her after that. If you make a big deal out of it. Then your child will make a big deal out of it. If you just tell her those are just numbers she will accept it. Also explain that since they had very little to no grammar instruction is that you just need to start from the beginning and that she can excel through it as need be until she gets to things that become more challenging. With everything you have to and must start from the beginning.

Also even with homeschoolers its not unusual for a child to test a grade or even two behind what they are currently using with a homeschool curriculum. It just depends on what they are being taught and when that's all. Has nothing to do with what they don't know. So keep that in mind.

 

Also use what you think will work for you and what you want to use. CLE has an excellent grammar program. Rod and Staff is excellent but it requires a lot of copywork if you want them to work through it. I know my daughter preferred the workbook approach because she really preferred to write in the workbook rather then copy all the sentences out of a book. Also doing work orally requires having a child that is an auditory learner. I learned this the hard way. I tried R&S, I liked it of course, and did it orally with my oldest. Well, she didn't learn not one thing. Here to find out she is NOT an auditory learner! So that was a big waste of time unfortunately. So be certain that your child is an auditory learner first if you decide to use R&S and you want to do it orally.

I used many grammar programs and honestly my daughter needed a spiral approach in learning grammar. Now she's a total opposite and the spiral approach with math does not work with her. Also remember though that each child is different. Some children need to focus on one thing at a time and that's just fine. Some children need to focus on a little bit at a time to get to the whole, and that's just fine too. You may find that you need to 'experiement' with curriculum until you find what works best for you.

[PeterPan]

Cheryl--First, all this is going to work out! You have a bright 7th grader, which means she's going to catch up on these things very quickly. What that means is you don't need CLE, mercy. You need to look at Analytical Grammar. It would get her through the entirety of the grammar she needs in short order and not offend her. It's just not reasonable to put a gifted 7th/8th grader into CLE5, kwim? They know it, and even the writing style and conceptual level won't fit her. Go look at Analytical Grammar.

 

The writing you'll be able to work on too, don't worry. Just take your time and make some solid choices. She's smart, which means she'll be able to understand paragraphing and structure in short order. Don't be reactionary and take something meant for a different level of child and foist it on her in your efforts to bring her up to speed. Pick something that fits her THINKING LEVEL and bring her up to the challenge. Just to toss out some ideas... She could do CW Homer for Older Beginners this summer and go into CW Diogenes in the fall. There's even an online class for it. VP and lots of other places have online writing classes too. Most aren't going to have pre-reqs for that first level, so you could basically just sign her up and let them bring her back up to speed. She'd be fine. She could do IEW SWI C this summer to be ready to start Elegant Essay in the fall. She could do Wordsmith over the summer and go into Wordsmith Craftsman for fall. She could do Writeshop 1 over the summer and go into Writeshop 2 in the fall.

 

None of that is to say she's behind if you don't. I haven't even used all those to have a specific opinion on them. I'm just showing you some ways to get her through the paragraph stage and into essay writing by fall. The programs are all different in flavor, but they can get her where she needs to be. That means you can look for the flavor that suits her best.

 

Don't worry. She's going to be fine! Just make a plan and work it. :)

[dakarimom5]

It must be the day to give CLE placement tests!! I gave my 2nd grader his and I wanted to cry too. But then I got mad, he is counting on his fingers and thinks there are 200 cups in a pint. I wouldn't be angry but they just finished a whole month on measurements!!

 

My 3rd grader did well on everything except fractions but they just started learning them this week.

 

I think we all have to breath and just be thankful that we have a starting point.

[mommycheryl]

Thank you all so much for the replies and encouragement. Nothing like realizing your child is not where you think they are to heap on the "mommy guilt."

 

I'll take a look at Analytical Grammar. Sounds like that might be a good tool for what we need. And hopefully if I get on this now with my 3rd grader, we won't be in the place in 4 years.;)

[....]

First, my kids are in ps. DD is in 7th, and in the AG (academically Gifted) LA program. DS is in 3rd and struggles with LA, especially writing. I try to add to their school work to fill gaps, but obviously not in LA. DS's writing grades this year and DD's first draft of a MAJOR science project/paper made me realize that if I can't hs, then I need to do some formal grammar with these kiddos.

 

Since DD is in 7th, I gave her the 500 Level test. She has only done 1/2, but her score is less than 50% and looking at the rest of the questions, I doubt it will increase. I feel sick right now. I wish that I had discovered WTM years ago. Her writing is so disorganized and she doesn't have any paragraphs, just one page and half paragraph. (It's a first draft, I keep reminding myself.) I want to help them, I need to help them, but I feel like I need to start her at the beginning and I worry that she will never get it all.

 

I'm just so upset and so overwhelmed with the whole idea. Have I waited too long? (And this doesn't even touch on my feelings on history, science, etc.) I don't even know where to start with her.:confused:

 

Any suggestions/advice would be greatly appreciated.

 

Cheryl

 

OK, here's my 2 cents. :tongue_smilie:

 

1. Read TWTM if you haven't yet - specifically the section on grammar stage and logic stage.

 

2. Listen to the elementary writing and middle grades writing audio lectures that are in the Peace Hill Press store.

 

3. The 3rd grader could start grammar with "anything". You could start Growing with Grammar or CLE or Rod and Staff or Shurley English or FLL or PLL/ILL...the list goes on and on...

 

4. 3rd grader and writing...that's the age where they should be doing Copywork, Dictation and Narration across the subjects. You can get a notebook for each subject and after a lesson in science (for example), you can have them copy a sentence from the lesson into their notebook (and one lesson could be dictation and one lesson narration). By 5th grade, they should start writing narrative paragraphs (on non-fiction content) on their own. You could also use Writing with Ease if you wanted.

 

5. CLE would be bad for the 7th grader for several reasons. First, their program really does take a full school year to get through - it's spiral and there is a ton of review - which is great for some kids. For an older kid reviewing, I think it's not going to be an efficient way to get up to grade level. Also, their high school is very different from their younger grades, so I would probably stop using their LUs at 8th grade and switch to something else. If you were trying to get a 5th grader caught up, I would probably recommend it.

 

6. Writing for the 7th grader... I don't have a 7th grader, so I'm not an expert on this, but I "think" they are supposed to be doing Outlining and Notetaking. Once a week, they should be writing 2 Narrative Summaries (of non-fiction from their lesson), writing 1 Literary Essay per week and writing an Outline of a non-fiction text. Please, check TWTM to make sure I am correct on that, but I'm pretty sure that was the list for Middle School. Also, for those grades, she recommends Voyages in English and Rod and Staff.

 

You could ask about the 7th grader on the Logic Stage board and see if the those parents can give you some specifics...

 

You said you feel overwhelmed...it's OK. You'll have to do a lot of research, but you'll get everything on track. :grouphug:

 

And...if any of my info is incorrect, feel free to correct me. I need a cup of coffee before I post.

[PeterPan]

Like Starrbuck12 says, we do the WTM writing (outlines, book writing, short compositions in content subjects, etc.) in addition to the writing program.