Staci in FL Posted January 24, 2011 Share Posted January 24, 2011 My 11.5-year old has been doing Saxon Math from Saxon 1 on. She is now halfway through Saxon 7/6. Every day we have tears. I think it is really time to change. I've been resistant to do that because I know Saxon is so good (I'm an engineer...I love Saxon), but Saxon is sucking the life out of my sweet girl and it is making our days miserable. It is time for a change. I've heard HORRIBLE things about Teaching Textbooks from math-loving people, so I've stayed away. But I'm looking at the samples on line and I'm thinking this is what she needs. Thoughts? Advice? Thanks. Staci Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChrissySC Posted January 24, 2011 Share Posted January 24, 2011 How long does a lesson take? It sounds as if she may not be good with basic skills. I would try a Saxon placement test. I would want to make sure that it is the curriculum and not lack of math skill. :D Just a thought! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rosy Posted January 24, 2011 Share Posted January 24, 2011 We switched from Saxon 76 to TT Pre-Algebra. DD found that there was a lot she hadn't thoroughly learned in Saxon and TT was a help. Lately she's been a little frustrated with it--she just finished the section on measurement conversions and was actually asking to go back to Saxon at one point. :P But overall it's been a good switch...and at this age they're young enough to take it slow and fill in any gaps later on. She also does LoF and enjoys it, and I feel better having a 2nd math curr...sort of like insurance. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Denise Allen Posted January 24, 2011 Share Posted January 24, 2011 We went through the same thing! My kids used Saxon from 2nd grade- until we switched. My daughter did it through Pre-Algebra- I WISH we would have switched sooner. Her 6th & 7th grade years were not that fun with Saxon. I REALLY love it up until 6th grade. I really don't have too much help to offer. Just understanding. My son is 7th grade this year and we switched to Lial's Basic College Math (great!), and my daughter is doing Foerster Algebra. Good luck find something! You won't regret it I'm sure. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Staci in FL Posted January 25, 2011 Author Share Posted January 25, 2011 Thanks for your responses. I'm still struggling as I decided whether or not to switch...it is scary thinking of doing that in the middle of the year. Anyway, thanks for your encouragement. Staci Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tammyla Posted January 25, 2011 Share Posted January 25, 2011 Questions about the tears... Why is the child crying? Is the material too difficult, are the lessons taking too long, does copying the lesson on paper stress her or is it something else?:confused: You may be able to accommodate her or at least find a better fitting option if you know what the problem is. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jen3kids Posted January 25, 2011 Share Posted January 25, 2011 I switched my dd to TT7 in February or March last year, out of Singapore 5A. It was the best thing to do for her. There was a lot of review in TT7 for her, but new stuff too. I loved the review that is built in. She loved the independence of doing the math on her own. She finished TT7 just before Christmas and is now doing LoF Fractions (more review), but she loves it. She should finish it by the end of next week. Then we have to decide to get TT Pre-Algebra or continue with LoF. Jen Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Margo out of lurking Posted January 25, 2011 Share Posted January 25, 2011 My 11.5-year old has been doing Saxon Math from Saxon 1 on. She is now halfway through Saxon 7/6. Every day we have tears. I think it is really time to change. I've been resistant to do that because I know Saxon is so good (I'm an engineer...I love Saxon), but Saxon is sucking the life out of my sweet girl and it is making our days miserable. It is time for a change. I've heard HORRIBLE things about Teaching Textbooks from math-loving people, so I've stayed away. But I'm looking at the samples on line and I'm thinking this is what she needs. Thoughts? Advice? Thanks. Staci My thought is that what works best for me, or what I like, isn't always the best fit for my kids. I find that quite irritating! :lol: Saxon can be good, and so can other math curriculum. The only problem I've had with switching is that sometimes the new program isn't a great fit either, and then we have to try again. It can be discouraging for the child and expensive. Can you borrow TT from someone for a month or so to get a feel of what you'd (both) be committing to? Don't completely close the door on Saxon. It may be that your dd isn't quite ready for the concepts in 7/6, or they haven't yet been presented in a way that's clicking for her. You can always take a break, try another curriculum, and eventually go back to Saxon; just another option. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Staci in FL Posted January 25, 2011 Author Share Posted January 25, 2011 The problem? The tears? Well, the problem is that she just doesn't like to work. She has some learning issues from starting life in an orphanage. She's graduated from occupational therapy and vision therapy, so the issues - according the the experts - have been dealt with. I really think that, ultimately, she just doesn't want to do the work. She would much, much rather run around and dream than sit and think. The math lessons seems very long to her. "This takes FOREVER." - she says that every single day. I sit with her and make sure she completes each problem (I do this with every subject, otherwise she'd never complete anything). She is also an extremely strong auditory learning...she learns very little by looking at things, so I do tons and tons of oral stuff with her. I do think that she needs the spiral approach to math, which is why I've stuck with Saxon for so long. She doesn't like to do anything academic, but in all of the other subjects I've found ways to deal with the lack of desire to complete school work. Math is the last hold out. I don't want her to hate it, but I DO want her to have a solid understanding of it. I would appreciate any other input. Thanks so much, Staci Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Margo out of lurking Posted January 25, 2011 Share Posted January 25, 2011 Staci, this sounds similar to my dd (although she doesn't have any learning issues). She too is very auditory. She can learn Icelandic, or the ancient Incan language, or any other obscure language in a week, but she hates math. ("Hate" is not strong enough.) I am always close by when she does math, offering encouragement and help and reminders. I constantly remind her that she can reasonably expect to be doing math for an hour each day. She did Saxon and Singapore in elementary, then Life of Fred, and is finally working on Lial's algebra. We've never found the "perfect" math curriculum, but this year is an improvement over last. My only input is that I can relate to part of what you are going through. It's hard when you are such a logical thinker and your dd is opposite! Her advantage is that other things will likely come easier to her, perhaps creative writing, languages, storytelling, physical activity, art, music. I so admire those qualities in people--they are such a mystery to me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KarenNC Posted January 25, 2011 Share Posted January 25, 2011 (edited) Contact Art Reed and ask for suggestions before switching http://www.homeschoolwithsaxon.com. He'll do free phone consultations (he has unlimited long distance, so he'll call you if you send him your phone number). I found him very helpful when we had issues. He has also recently done teaching videos of levels 7/6 and 8/7 to add to his videos of the upper levels. They're only $50 per level. I have a 10.5 yo daughter and am seriously considering using these dvds when we start back on 7/6 (we had to drop back to 6/5 for a bit to help our problem). For us, math is her toughest subject and, with puberty drama hitting, the more I can choose my battles, the better. I think it will be beneficial to move myself into more of a support role in math. Also, she processes math in a different way than I do (much more like my husband), so I'm hoping an additional teacher with perhaps a somewhat different approach will be helpful. The bonus for your daughter might be that she can watch (and listen to) the same lecture over and over again if she needs to without frustrating the teacher;). Sometimes for my daughter, giving her more control over the process helps. Edited January 25, 2011 by KarenNC Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Staci in FL Posted January 25, 2011 Author Share Posted January 25, 2011 Kristine, Thanks for the support! Yes, she is learning Russian and Chinese with absolutely no problem. I flip back and forth on an hourly basis on whether or not we should switch. And yes, it is difficult when I'm a math lover (and a Saxon lover) and she isn't... Staci Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Staci in FL Posted January 25, 2011 Author Share Posted January 25, 2011 KarenNC, This is a great idea. I didn't know that I could do this. Thanks so much. I'll contact him today. Staci Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KarenNC Posted January 25, 2011 Share Posted January 25, 2011 KarenNC, This is a great idea. I didn't know that I could do this. Thanks so much. I'll contact him today. Staci You're welcome. I feel your frustration. I was a physics major and my husband an English major---my daughter is much more like my husband. It can be very frustrating for me when I literally cannot see why my daughter doesn't understand a specific math concept when it's totally obvious to me. We had years of tears over Singapore before we switched to Saxon, so I understand switching as well. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
momee Posted January 25, 2011 Share Posted January 25, 2011 (edited) Hi Staci, just wanted to jump in and say I regret switching to TT with my oldest and even through hard spots that may bring on tears, we're staying with Saxon with my youngers to avoid what happened to the oldest with the switch. If you want further info on that personal story, you may pm me. I was wowed by those who say they'd been using TT for three months and the tears stopped. Sounded great from a tired mom who no longer wanted to deal with it and TT promised to take the hard work off my plate. Bad move for us, personally. I wouldn't advise switching simply because of the reasons you've stated. Those sound like fact retention issues (does she know her math facts? all of them? math will only get harder and harder if not) and work ethic issues. There are valid reasons for switching but these don't sound like it to me. Something I have had to do because I have been in your shoes with three children now...is giving my kids the answers to their work if they're stuck FOR CALCULATION only. This shows me it is a math fact problem they're having that's making math take so long. This also shows me, hey mom, she really doesn't know how to reduce a fraction, or whatever. Then we cover that again by going to the lesson it's introduced and do the practice problems. Our solution to work ethic issues: my guys have to redo the lesson if more than five missed, they're very careful and they come to me for help with what they don't know. We're in decimals and percents and it's getting very hard so I'm a bit more lenient of late on this point, but you know what I mean. If they're making careless errors, they spend their evening free time doing math (can you hear the groans). Art Reed will tell you only concentrate on her tests. If she misses more than three then you have a problem with those recent lessons and to go back and reteach. I found my girl's issues were further back than just the last five lessons so his suggestion helped, but our problem was deeper than just those last five. Can she do well on all tests taken so far? If not you may have to back up. No shame in that, rather do it now than algebra or geometry :))) If she knows her math facts and is in a right level and has been getting what you've taught, it shouldn't take so long. Tears? My kids can cry over math with anyone anycurricula anytime :) I hesitate to post so much about math here in "public" because math is sooo controversial . I'm sure there are proponents of switching that would disagree with everything I've said, but our experience is ours and no one can argue that. Anyway, want to chat? Feel free to pm me. Edited January 25, 2011 by momee Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jec3113 Posted January 25, 2011 Share Posted January 25, 2011 Someone mentioned doing a Saxon placement test. Those tests are only for students who have never used Saxon. It will not be accurate if she is already using Saxon. I thought we would never switched from Saxon but mid year we switched to Math U See. It has the spiral approach and the lessons are much shorter. Best of all, no more tears! The kids love it and they are learning, so I am happy. I am hoping to switch back to Saxon at some point when the kids are older, but we will see. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Staci in FL Posted January 25, 2011 Author Share Posted January 25, 2011 Momee...I PM'd you. Thanks so much. Jen...good point. She's been with Saxon for seven years...taking a placement test probably isn't going to help me out too much. Staci Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Staci in FL Posted January 25, 2011 Author Share Posted January 25, 2011 And just so you all know... I have her doing the Teaching Textbooks placement test right now and she's crying over that, too! I guess the tears are just math in general! Staci Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tammyla Posted January 25, 2011 Share Posted January 25, 2011 The problem? The tears? Well, the problem is that she just doesn't like to work. She has some learning issues from starting life in an orphanage. She's graduated from occupational therapy and vision therapy, so the issues - according the the experts - have been dealt with. I really think that, ultimately, she just doesn't want to do the work. She would much, much rather run around and dream than sit and think. The math lessons seems very long to her. "This takes FOREVER." - she says that every single day. I sit with her and make sure she completes each problem (I do this with every subject, otherwise she'd never complete anything). She is also an extremely strong auditory learning...she learns very little by looking at things, so I do tons and tons of oral stuff with her. I do think that she needs the spiral approach to math, which is why I've stuck with Saxon for so long. She doesn't like to do anything academic, but in all of the other subjects I've found ways to deal with the lack of desire to complete school work. Math is the last hold out. I don't want her to hate it, but I DO want her to have a solid understanding of it. I would appreciate any other input. Thanks so much, Staci And just so you all know... I have her doing the Teaching Textbooks placement test right now and she's crying over that, too! I guess the tears are just math in general! Staci Art Reed, is an excellent resource to try. (He also has a book on making Saxon work.) I found his book very useful and encouraging. You'll find the right solution(s) for your dd, just as you have in the past. Mothering and teaching tweens can cause many of us to shed our own tears. Time, a bit of tweaking and backing up a bit with many subjects, can cure many curriculum woes and even tears. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MIch elle Posted January 25, 2011 Share Posted January 25, 2011 I really think that, ultimately, she just doesn't want to do the work. She would much, much rather run around and dream than sit and think. The math lessons seems very long to her. "This takes FOREVER." - she says that every single day. I sit with her and make sure she completes each problem (I do this with every subject, otherwise she'd never complete anything). She is also an extremely strong auditory learning...she learns very little by looking at things, so I do tons and tons of oral stuff with her. I do think that she needs the spiral approach to math, which is why I've stuck with Saxon for so long. She doesn't like to do anything academic, but in all of the other subjects I've found ways to deal with the lack of desire to complete school work. Math is the last hold out. I don't want her to hate it, but I DO want her to have a solid understanding of it. I would appreciate any other input. Thanks so much, Staci I REALLY think that cutting the AMOUNT of problems she has to complete/day would greatly help. Most dc in school do NOT do half as many problems that most homeschool math programs have dc do. There is SOO much repetition in EVERY math program, Saxon included, dc will do those same problems OVER & OVER again through the years!! Try that first before you switch. You'll both be SO much happier. Also consider using Art Reed's Saxon math dvds for audio/visual help. They are EXCELLENT and well worth $50!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Staci in FL Posted January 25, 2011 Author Share Posted January 25, 2011 Michelle, Okay. Could you talk to me about the amount of each lesson for a second? I don't have her skip anything in the lessons because I know that the strength of Saxon is the repetition. The instructions every year say that the student is not to skip anything. So....we don't skip anything. Math takes us between 1 1/2 - 2 hours each day, me sitting her with her, walking through each problem together. What would you suggest in terms of skipping problems? Staci Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
momee Posted January 25, 2011 Share Posted January 25, 2011 (edited) I agree with Michelle also. Good advice to cut down on tears :)))) I wouldn't say to cut out any problems just do part of the lesson one day and the second part the second day. Whatever you need to take one lesson in it's entirety. Even doing something like fact sheet, mental math then word problem. Run around block. Start the verbal part of the lesson and be sure she can do the practice problem. THEN later in the day do the mixed practice, or take two days to do the mixed practice together on a white board. We totally have to do the same thing in this house with girls who have used Saxon from K level. Some of it is so hard for them. Be loving too, she knows she's not doing great, grace, grace, grace. I completely forget that when it comes to math. Edited January 25, 2011 by momee Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MIch elle Posted January 25, 2011 Share Posted January 25, 2011 Michelle, Okay. Could you talk to me about the amount of each lesson for a second? I don't have her skip anything in the lessons because I know that the strength of Saxon is the repetition. The instructions every year say that the student is not to skip anything. So....we don't skip anything. Math takes us between 1 1/2 - 2 hours each day, me sitting her with her, walking through each problem together. What would you suggest in terms of skipping problems? Staci I learned to cut problems with almost EVERY homeschool math program I used. I would look at the day's math problems and cross out ones I KNEW my dc KNEW well that were just brain drain problems. Sometimes every third or other problem. If you can cut enough problems so math is one hr instead of 1.5, your dc will be happier. Just make sure that she's still maintaining an 80% or better on her Saxon tests. How many times do you need to do certain types of problems without driving yourself & your dc crazy! If you look ahead (or back) you'll see that your dc will do the same type of math problems hundreds of times over the course of 2-3 years of math in grades 6-8. Do you have the next Saxon book? If you do, look ahead and you'll see it's all repeated. :lol: My older ds was SO VERY HAPPY when he attended school for the first time (grade 9) and didn't have to do SO many problems in his algebra 1 class (and geometry & now alg 2). He does well in math - always has. :D Let them blast away at me (board ladies). Doing ALL those problems EVERYDAY is TOO much which causes brain drain & dc to HATE math! :auto: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Unicorn. Posted January 25, 2011 Share Posted January 25, 2011 I learned to cut problems with almost EVERY homeschool math program I used. I would look at the day's math problems and cross out ones I KNEW my dc KNEW well that were just brain drain problems. Sometimes every third or other problem. If you can cut enough problems so math is one hr instead of 1.5, your dc will be happier. Just make sure that she's still maintaining an 80% or better on her Saxon tests. How many times do you need to do certain types of problems without driving yourself & your dc crazy! If you look ahead (or back) you'll see that your dc will do the same type of math problems hundreds of times over the course of 2-3 years of math in grades 6-8. Do you have the next Saxon book? If you do, look ahead and you'll see it's all repeated. :lol: My older ds was SO VERY HAPPY when he attended school for the first time (grade 9) and didn't have to do SO many problems in his algebra 1 class (and geometry & now alg 2). He does well in math - always has. :D Let them blast away at me (board ladies). Doing ALL those problems EVERYDAY is TOO much which causes brain drain & dc to HATE math! :auto: :iagree: You do NOT need to work every single problem in Saxon. Cut the ones that are constant repeaters, do them sometimes, but not every day! Have her do all the new material from the day's lesson, the problems that relate to the previous couple of days, then pick and choose the ones you want to review, or that you know she needs to work on. hth Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rosy Posted January 25, 2011 Share Posted January 25, 2011 The problem? The tears? Well, the problem is that she just doesn't like to work. She has some learning issues from starting life in an orphanage. She's graduated from occupational therapy and vision therapy, so the issues - according the the experts - have been dealt with. I really think that, ultimately, she just doesn't want to do the work. She would much, much rather run around and dream than sit and think. The math lessons seems very long to her. "This takes FOREVER." - she says that every single day. I sit with her and make sure she completes each problem (I do this with every subject, otherwise she'd never complete anything). She is also an extremely strong auditory learning...she learns very little by looking at things, so I do tons and tons of oral stuff with her. I do think that she needs the spiral approach to math, which is why I've stuck with Saxon for so long. She doesn't like to do anything academic, but in all of the other subjects I've found ways to deal with the lack of desire to complete school work. Math is the last hold out. I don't want her to hate it, but I DO want her to have a solid understanding of it. I would appreciate any other input. Thanks so much, Staci I will say that TT actually takes my DD longer than Saxon...so if that is the concern I definitely wouldn't switch! Esp if she's balking at the placement test. I would just slow down and let her get more comfortable with her facts. One great resource is the worksheet generator on the Math-U-See website. I use that ALL the time, esp with DS who just doesn't master concepts well. We sometimes will move on and then come back to something he isn't fully getting. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robin in DFW Posted January 25, 2011 Share Posted January 25, 2011 several types of problems in every single lesson. Maybe this particular student needs a program where she can focus on one concept at a time and do problems on just that rather than doing so many different types of problems daily. For some kids, the constant switching of gears during a single lesson is frustrating. I have tried Saxon with my ds more times than I care to admit. He will do fine for a little while, but then when the lessons start to incorporate too many different things, he gets bogged down, working slower and slower with less and less recall of old concepts. We are using Lial's Basic College Math (again...after yet another short foray into Saxon Algebra 1/2) and are also using Dolciani's Pre-Algebra. They are a great combination. Some kids do great with incremental (Saxon) and some do great with a more mastery approach. It's difficult to figure out...it has taken me several years to realize Saxon just doesn't work for either of my kids. hth, Robin Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brownie Posted January 26, 2011 Share Posted January 26, 2011 Engineer here as well! I loved Singapore but switched ds10 to Saxon 76 bc he was struggling and it is a better fit. If your dd "had" vision issues, how about standing at a dry erase board to do the mixed practice? DS does this and his scores are higher than when he works on paper. I think it keeps him more alert too. We also orally run through any "to do in your head problems" before he starts and mark those off the list. Some days there are a ton...others only a few, but it makes the load seem lighter and if she's auditory it might help. Brownie Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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