MSNative Posted January 18, 2011 Share Posted January 18, 2011 So, I'm reading a book that has a provocative assertion. Interested to hear your thoughts on it. Essentially, it states that radical egalitarianism (equality of outcomes rather than opportunities) and radical individualism (drastic reduction in limits to personal gratification) has led to a deterioration of our culture. In order to achieve the goals of these two seemingly antithetical forces, deviant behavior must be defined as normal and normal behavior must be defined as deviant. An earlier post here about a woman's dh who had a girl freak out when he opened a door for her and inadvertently grazed her arm got me thinking about this. This does seem to be an incident of normal behavior being defined as deviant (though clearly this is an extreme example). What do you think about the assertion? Do you think that normal behavior is becoming blameworthy and deviant behavior becoming normalized? Do you think that our culture is deteriorating? Not sure if any of this made sense. I tried to pass on the gist of the argument from the book, but please let me know if I have failed and need to provide more info. I'm also not trying to get into a "those people" kind of debate. I'm really looking for your take on the direction of our culture (mainly looking at Western culture but would be delighted to hear an Eastern perspective). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rosie_0801 Posted January 18, 2011 Share Posted January 18, 2011 Dh had coffee with a friend yesterday and came home to tell me about "cuddle parties." Apparently cuddling has become a fetish. These parties are non-s3xual, just for platonic cuddles. It seems these people are lacking body contact. Now I have some theories on that, and they aren't relevant here (I am talking about a bunch who could be described as "those people,") but a cuddle fetish? Since when is cuddling anything but normal? Kind of supports what your book is saying, doesn't it? Rosie Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MSNative Posted January 19, 2011 Author Share Posted January 19, 2011 Dh had coffee with a friend yesterday and came home to tell me about "cuddle parties." Apparently cuddling has become a fetish. These parties are non-s3xual, just for platonic cuddles. It seems these people are lacking body contact. Now I have some theories on that, and they aren't relevant here (I am talking about a bunch who could be described as "those people,") but a cuddle fetish? Since when is cuddling anything but normal? Kind of supports what your book is saying, doesn't it? Rosie It actually supports another statement in the book about the isolating nature of technology in society. Hmmmm.....lots to ponder. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
*lifeoftheparty* Posted January 19, 2011 Share Posted January 19, 2011 The biggest thing that stands out in my head about this is from this summer: I was looking for modest swimwear, not b/c I am a prude, but because I really believe that I am not in prime condition anymore (read: overweight) and I look gross with all my stuff hanging out. SO, I was looking for stuff online, reading reviews, etc. The general consensus was that people who wore modest swim wear, like the things the Duggar's wear, are weird and get treated as such. (http://www.wholesomewear.com/page-4.html) But the girls/women walking around practically naked, in less clothing than you would see with bra and panties, are NORMAL. And people, online, got/get pretty heated up about the whole thing; there seems to be a LOT of resistance/intolerance about people wearing modest swimwear... and I just don't understand. If you walked around outside wearing nothing but your bra and panties, you would probably be arrested... but wearing bikinis that cover LESS than that, are NORMAL. While the suits that cover everything, are the ones people wouldn't be caught dead in, and pick on people for wearing. :confused: If you're interested, this (link below) is what I finally found, liked, and went with :) They are pricey, but EXCELLENT quality! I wore mine all summer and it never got thin and worn, or anything, VERY comfortable; and, best of all, not ONCE, ALL summer, did I feel self-conscious about my body. :D I could get out of the pool/lake/ocean and not have to immediately cover up! It was great and I'm getting another one this summer. (I got a swim skort and slenderizing shirt!) http://www.hydrochic.com/index.html Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rosie_0801 Posted January 19, 2011 Share Posted January 19, 2011 It actually supports another statement in the book about the isolating nature of technology in society. Hmmmm.....lots to ponder. Funny you should mention technology. I was talking with Ibbygirl the other day, saying there must be people we could be friends with in our respective towns, but everyone is so busy perhaps people only have time to connect with people outside their time zone! Rosie Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NoPlaceLikeHome Posted January 19, 2011 Share Posted January 19, 2011 I have felt that radical individualism and anything goes has been a detriment to our society. It distresses me to see people think that manners and civility are optional. It distresses me to see people think it is ok to be mean and put down others. It distresses me that people think outrageous clothing and shock value are cool. For example, I have seen people dressed in clothing that seemed more appropriate for beach attire if that in museums. Then there are the outrageous music which abhorrent values that devalue kindness, culture, etc. Of course, I don't think this applies to everyone:) OTOH I always felt that there should be some flexibility to culture such as allowing women to wear pants for dress occasions or men to wear beards or longer hair (as long as it looks attractive:tongue_smilie:) if desired. I also appreciate different cultural dress. What I don't appreciate is near nakedness in venues other than the beach or permanent disfiguring of one's body for shock value. I think appropriately placed tattoos can be nice, but all over one's face not. I don't appreciate rampant consumerism and the me, me, me society. As for the egalitarian values, I don't see them as detrimental. I hope for all to have a chance in our society and I believe in social safety networks. I also strongly believe in hard work, frugality, personal responsibility, and family:) The only detriment I really see is in our schools. You cannot fit everyone in the same cookie cutter and we need to see a return to academic rigor as well as other good options such as trade schools since college is not everything. I also hope to see colleges and vocational schools more available to everyone since they are becoming unaffordable. My 2 cents:) I do have trouble voicing my distress over the radical individuality. I am not sure if I am conveying exactly how I feel but it has disturbed me of late:( Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mcconnellboys Posted January 19, 2011 Share Posted January 19, 2011 I wonder if these might be people with sensory deprivation issues that were never addressed when they were growing up (I'm assuming this is adults).... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mcconnellboys Posted January 19, 2011 Share Posted January 19, 2011 This makes me think of the sexualization of even toddler girls with clothing that would have been considered for prostitutes when I was growing up.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mcconnellboys Posted January 19, 2011 Share Posted January 19, 2011 One thing I have noticed over the past ten years in public places, particularly large cities, is that very many people no longer seem to be able to internalize the basic tenant of "keep right" when walking on public sidewalks, in public places, entering and exiting buildings, going up and down large stairways, etc. It makes navigating somewhat confusing and difficult at times! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cera Posted January 19, 2011 Share Posted January 19, 2011 Can you post the title and author? I agree with the assertion for the most part and believe it can be used to explain quite a lot in society at this time. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IsabelC Posted January 19, 2011 Share Posted January 19, 2011 Are you talking about normal as in the statistical norm, or normal in the sociological sense? There would be many examples of behaviors that are normal but not normative. As for the deterioration of culture, surely that is a value judgment that's going to depend on the paradigm though which you view it? I find it shocking that some people get all hot under the collar about things like tattoos and the rules of etiquette (which are a matter of taste within the culture / subculture) while remaining seemingly oblivious to the big (universal) issues around human rights, the environment, etc. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
angela in ohio Posted January 19, 2011 Share Posted January 19, 2011 Do you think that normal behavior is becoming blameworthy and deviant behavior becoming normalized? Yes. It's actually strange (and frightening at times) to look around and feel like you're in a dream where the whole world has gone crazy and up is down and down is up. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MSNative Posted January 19, 2011 Author Share Posted January 19, 2011 As for the deterioration of culture, surely that is a value judgment that's going to depend on the paradigm though which you view it? I find it shocking that some people get all hot under the collar about things like tattoos and the rules of etiquette (which are a matter of taste within the culture / subculture) while remaining seemingly oblivious to the big (universal) issues around human rights, the environment, etc. It is absolutely a value judgment. I was almost going to make a poll, but as your post shows, people can think culture is declining for many different reasons, so I didn't think a poll would be that useful. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
My3Boys Posted January 19, 2011 Share Posted January 19, 2011 So, I'm reading a book that has a provocative assertion. Interested to hear your thoughts on it. Essentially, it states that radical egalitarianism (equality of outcomes rather than opportunities) and radical individualism (drastic reduction in limits to personal gratification) has led to a deterioration of our culture. In order to achieve the goals of these two seemingly antithetical forces, deviant behavior must be defined as normal and normal behavior must be defined as deviant. An earlier post here about a woman's dh who had a girl freak out when he opened a door for her and inadvertently grazed her arm got me thinking about this. This does seem to be an incident of normal behavior being defined as deviant (though clearly this is an extreme example). What do you think about the assertion? Do you think that normal behavior is becoming blameworthy and deviant behavior becoming normalized? Do you think that our culture is deteriorating? Not sure if any of this made sense. I tried to pass on the gist of the argument from the book, but please let me know if I have failed and need to provide more info. I'm also not trying to get into a "those people" kind of debate. I'm really looking for your take on the direction of our culture (mainly looking at Western culture but would be delighted to hear an Eastern perspective). I totally agree on both of the main points. Equality of outcome is based on the entitlement mentality while equality of opportunity is based on work ethic. There is a difference between the "pursuit of happiness" and the guarantee of a specific reward with little or no effort put forth by the recipient. As to the normal/deviant issue, the first thought that comes to mind is the Scripture that says there will come a time when "evil will be called good and good will be called evil". The reference escapes me at the moment. I'll come back and edit it in. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NoPlaceLikeHome Posted January 20, 2011 Share Posted January 20, 2011 One thing I have noticed over the past ten years in public places, particularly large cities, is that very many people no longer seem to be able to internalize the basic tenant of "keep right" when walking on public sidewalks, in public places, entering and exiting buildings, going up and down large stairways, etc. It makes navigating somewhat confusing and difficult at times! :iagree: On very crowed sidewalks in the city I have run groups of kids who felt no qualms about taking the whole side walk at all to the point where I had to literally stand in their way so that I did not have to step into the bushes or the road. To me it is shocking how some kids and adults behave:glare:. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mynyel Posted January 20, 2011 Share Posted January 20, 2011 One thing I have noticed over the past ten years in public places, particularly large cities, is that very many people no longer seem to be able to internalize the basic tenant of "keep right" when walking on public sidewalks, in public places, entering and exiting buildings, going up and down large stairways, etc. It makes navigating somewhat confusing and difficult at times! This isn't helped when you have stores (like a couple walmarts around here) that have put the entrance and exit backwards. The entrance/exit is on the left :confused: I always end up going against the slow and then realizing my mistake. Sheesh can't we keep it the same for us creatures of habit? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mcconnellboys Posted January 20, 2011 Share Posted January 20, 2011 The really odd thing to me is that it doesn't seem to just be those under 30 doing this, however. Even folks who seem to be my age or older are now doing it. I'm not sure if they've forgotten conventions they surely must have learned, or are just emulating those around them - blending in....? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mcconnellboys Posted January 20, 2011 Share Posted January 20, 2011 Isaiah: http://bible.cc/isaiah/5-20.htm Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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