Thoughts on 'The Community College Fad'

[8filltheheart]

I am not a fan of CC dual enrollment credit. In reality, I am completely unimpressed with the CCs we have used. Our oldest took composition his senior yr of high school at a CC and it was hard to believe the 3 papers he wrote (all under 5 pgs) were all that were required of freshman English (but they were.) Compare that to what students are doing to meet AP English requirements!

 

The courses he took dual enrolled at the university level, however, were excellent.

 

I have been told that the CCs here excellent. (at least no one ever claimed that the CCs where we used to live were great.) If this is the definition of excellent, I cannot imagine just how poor the quality of education is out there. Our 18 yos is now a freshman at the local CC. His workload is so unimagineably light that if it weren't for the fact that at this point we do not know how to proceed with him b/c of his disabilities, we would withdraw him.

 

His business class homework for an entire week consisted of posting a parargraph response to a question and posting 2 responses to other people's answers on a discussion forum. The week before that he only had to read a chpt in the text! Really? A week's worth of work for a 3 hr credit course? (He spent under 30 mins on discussion questions and about 45 mins reading!)

 

Our oldest did run into skanky discussions in his class, but that didn't bother me. He was well prepared for them and handled himself well, even if the professor did rename him as Mr. Naive in class. My problem with the courses we have been exposed to thus far is strictly based on the poor quality of the academics.

 

I had been told when we moved here that the unis did not allow for dual enrollment and that you had to go through the CC. I recently discovered that the local uni does allow for "academic honors" students to dual enroll. I am going to research this option more fully b/c the expectations at the CC are so low. I don't think it would benefit my children to take classes with such poor standards.

[FlockOfSillies]

Well, it's not like you're busy or anything.

[AnitaMcC]

I think it really boils down to what works for each individual family and student. What route of education fits their needs the best. What route helps them reach the goals they are aiming for.

 

We homeschool for many reasons... and it is dependent upon each of our kids needs. And the same goes for attending CC as dual credit or graduating a teen early so he/she can attend college full time sooner.

 

For Ds, it is the best route for him to graduate high school up to two years early. He wants to attend Columbia University in New York City and they do not accept credits for college courses taken in high school. He will graduate high school with 5 science credits (aerospace, astronomy, chemistry, physics, geology) and 4 math credits (algebra 1, algebra 2, geometry, precalculus). So why have him do college level courses before college if it won't count? So we are aiming for for him to finish high school early, then attend CC for two years full time. The big reason is $$. We have to pay for all the tuition and fees if he took courses while in high school and that just isn't reasonable for us since Columbia wouldn't accept the credits and then we would have to pay for the same courses again.

 

For Dd, she isn't in any hurry and she is happy to go at a slower pace so she has more time and energy to do other things.

 

Our Jr College is highly rated and all the freshman/sophmore core courses are the same courses as attending the top state universities. I know many people who have attended and(many who are attending) the Jr college and they all say that it is a very good school. Yes some classes are better than others (and some even are horrible I am sure), but then again that is life. We are free to choose.. freedom.... such a wonderful thing.

 

There aren't any problems with inappropriate discussions or materials being used in courses that one would expect to be "clean". Yes some art courses show nude materials or use nude models. But IMO that is to be expected at that level. And even here an individual can talk with the instructer. A friend of mine is very religious and wanted to take a drawing art class. She did not want to be drawing nude models. So she was able to not attend the part of class that had nude models but instead to go elsewhere and work on the art skill that was being taught. It did not hurt her grade or anything... she simply talked to the instructer before registering for the class and made arrangements.

[8filltheheart]

For Ds, it is the best route for him to graduate high school up to two years early. He wants to attend Columbia University in New York City and they do not accept credits for college courses taken in high school. He will graduate high school with 5 science credits (aerospace, astronomy, chemistry, physics, geology) and 4 math credits (algebra 1, algebra 2, geometry, precalculus). So why have him do college level courses before college if it won't count? So we are aiming for for him to finish high school early, then attend CC for two years full time. The big reason is $$. We have to pay for all the tuition and fees if he took courses while in high school and that just isn't reasonable for us since Columbia wouldn't accept the credits and then we would have to pay for the same courses again.

 

 

I would recommend you contact someone in Columbia's admissions dept before making this decision. You might be better off pursuing AP credits than CC credits. Have you read their web pages?

 

This section makes me wonder if they are specifically targeting students that are earning AAs like a lot of homeschoolers. I realize that you say you plan on graduating him prior to these courses, but I would verify that they will accept your early graduation diploma.

 

If you left high school without receiving a diploma in order to attend an early college program, you are not eligible for transfer admission and must apply as a first-year student using the first year application, by the appropriate Early Decision or Regular Decision deadline. You will not be eligible to receive credit for such accelerated programs except for credit earned through standardized examinations (e.g., AP and IB exams); such credit will be limited to 16 points, the equivalent of one full semester at Columbia.

 

Also, they are very explicit about how many hrs you need and must not exceed to be considered a transfer student.

 

To be eligible to enroll as a transfer student at Columbia, you must have completed, or be registered for, 24 points of credit (the equivalent of one year of full-time study) at another institution. Candidates with more than four semesters of college coursework elsewhere are not encouraged to apply.

 

You need to talk to an admissions officer to make sure that what you are proposing is will be acceptable to them. I would be surprised if it is as simple as you are stating. Most universities are finicky as to what transfer hrs they will accept. Just b/c 2 courses have the same name does not mean that another university will automatically accept the hrs.

[creekland]

I would recommend you contact someone in Columbia's admissions dept before making this decision. You might be better off pursuing AP credits than CC credits. Have you read their web pages?

 

This section makes me wonder if they are specifically targeting students that are earning AAs like a lot of homeschoolers. I realize that you say you plan on graduating him prior to these courses, but I would verify that they will accept your early graduation diploma.

 

If you left high school without receiving a diploma in order to attend an early college program, you are not eligible for transfer admission and must apply as a first-year student using the first year application, by the appropriate Early Decision or Regular Decision deadline. You will not be eligible to receive credit for such accelerated programs except for credit earned through standardized examinations (e.g., AP and IB exams); such credit will be limited to 16 points, the equivalent of one full semester at Columbia.

 

Also, they are very explicit about how many hrs you need and must not exceed to be considered a transfer student.

 

To be eligible to enroll as a transfer student at Columbia, you must have completed, or be registered for, 24 points of credit (the equivalent of one year of full-time study) at another institution. Candidates with more than four semesters of college coursework elsewhere are not encouraged to apply.

 

You need to talk to an admissions officer to make sure that what you are proposing is will be acceptable to them. I would be surprised if it is as simple as you are stating. Most universities are finicky as to what transfer hrs they will accept. Just b/c 2 courses have the same name does not mean that another university will automatically accept the hrs.

 

:iagree: Very selective colleges are VERY picky and often do not like to see CC courses as they don't consider the level to be the same (whether they are or not).

[Jane in NC]

:iagree: Very selective colleges are VERY picky and often do not like to see CC courses as they don't consider the level to be the same (whether they are or not).

 

My son is attending an LAC--not an Ivy League School. His college does not accept any community college transfer credits.

 

In the sciences, students may place out of some of the beginning courses by examination--but they do not receive credit for the earlier courses.

 

I agree with 8filltheheart's comment that if one plans on transferring, one needs to do some homework, especially if the college or university into which the student is transferring is private or a highly selective public school. The latter may have articulation agreements with CCs in their state, but I would not expect all out of state CC credits to transfer.

[FaithManor]

Not only are our CC's very poor and have TERRIBLE reputations, but none of the colleges our kids have looked at will accept their credits even as electives. Since dh and I have a background that allows us to comfortably teach advanced math and sciences, many of which our CC's wouldn't even offer, dual enrollment is not a consideration for our family. Additionally, the two universities within commuting distance also offering dual enrollment, are quite competitive with other universities who will not accept dual enrollment credits for transfer....these colleges are just quite finicky with each other and transfering between them is a nightmare. Their reputations are so bad that the well known fact is, no matter how unhappy you are at the end of your freshman year, you either stick out or just scrap that year all together and start again as a freshman somewhere else. The private universities in our state do readily accept dual enrollment credits from four- year institutions but the caveat being that they still require that more than 3/4 of the credits be earned at their college in order to graduate. Otherwise, you spend a fifth year spinning your wheels taking classes you probably don't need in order to accumulate enough of their credits to finally get a diploma. It's a nit-picky mess.

 

We'll be using MIT opencourseware for a lot of ds's electives. This will allow him to encounter more challenging material while not wasting our time and money on classes that can't be transferred from such poor institutions that he won't be challenged and may even develop bad study habits. We don't want his first attempts at college level work to seem so easy that he is mislead into thinking his freshman year at a real university will be a breeze.

 

We are looking at the new C.S. Lewis College in Massachusetts for ds and they are going to be very selective!

 

The second ds is likely to end up at MSU in the Ag department or Vet school...this is very much up his alley. The third DS will probably go into mathematics or engineering and there are a number of great schools to look at when that time comes.

 

DD is finishing paramedic school, will work as a paramedic for two-three years in order to save money, and then will be off to a new program at U of M - paramedic to physician's assistant in two years (summers too, minimal breaks so six college semesters with more than 15 credit hours each).

 

Faith

[Tullia]

We'll be using MIT opencourseware for a lot of ds's electives. This will allow him to encounter more challenging material while not wasting our time and money on classes that can't be transferred from such poor institutions that he won't be challenged and may even develop bad study habits. We don't want his first attempts at college level work to seem so easy that he is mislead into thinking his freshman year at a real university will be a breeze.

Faith

 

That's an excellent alternative and one I wish we'd looked into during high school. Ds used an MIT series to supplement his cc calculus which he found on his own last spring. The biggest difference he's seen between his syllabus and the MIT syllabus is in the pacing of the material--that was an eye-opener for him. He has a better understanding now about what dh and I have told him about how college options differ. BTW, for this dc who came late to a decision that he really likes math the cc option has been a good one--and his instructors so far have been excellent. It's not a path I'd generally recommend, though.

[distancia]

We just returned from a Labor Day weekend visiting my D's best friend (18.5 year-old freshman at a top tier public university) and after comparing, we learned that my D, only 17.5 and at a local CC, has HARDER courses requiring MORE demanding work.

 

D's friend took AP English Lit in h/s and didn't even score a 3 on the test. Ditto for AP Physics and AP Calc as well as AP Psychology. So she went into college with no college credits. She is starting from scratch in English Comp 101 and Intro to Psych, whereas my D is already in English Comp 2 and advanced Spanish, both courses requiring at least 3 hours a day of work between them, and sometimes a great deal more.

 

My D's CC courses have used the identical text as the top-tier uni, as mandated by the state--and she has done a similar courseload. She will be starting school next Fall 2011 with a good 10 college classes under her belt. Even more important, she will understand what it is like to juggle the demands of a "college" load" and how to motivate on her own, and not rely on the teacher (at a high school) to motivate her.

[Tammyla]

Great discussion:lurk5:.

 

Lots here to consider and check out locally. I really appreciate reading all the shared experiences too.