Deutsche Mama Posted July 19, 2010 Share Posted July 19, 2010 Hi! I'm looking for some help from some veteran bilingual homeschoolers! My sons are bilingual in German and ENglish (my oldest fairly equally, though his German is a bit better), and I'm wondering what to do about reaching reading. His is only pre-K but I want to start teaching reading when he is about 4. My question -- do I do reading in both languages simultaneously or first one then the other--and which first? I am thinking perhaps German first would be better since it's easier than English and it's his dominant language, but I'm a bit worried that he'll then apply German phonics to his English reading. Any recommendations? thank you all so much! Laura Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cmarango Posted July 19, 2010 Share Posted July 19, 2010 We are in this boat now. My dd has started sounding out cvc words. I had planned on teaching her to read in Spanish first since it is more phonetically regular. However, she surprised me one day when she read a few words. I would love to hear what others are doing or have done with this issue. My plan right now is to slowly move through the short vowel sounds in english and then we will start doing Spanish and English reading instruction. For example, we will continue our reading lesson in the morning in English and then in the evening she will begin her lessons in Spanish, starting with each letter of the Spanish alphabet and the sounds that they make. I know that she understands that the vowels in Spanish sound differently than they do in English. She can also tell me which books are written in Spanish and which are written in English and has been able to tell me that for some time now. So, I am hoping that it will not be that difficult for her to learn blending in 2 different languages. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mabelen Posted July 19, 2010 Share Posted July 19, 2010 We are English/Spanish bilingual. We have always lived in English speaking countries, early on we follow the OPOL, with me providing Spanish and my husband English, but at one point we switch to all English for family gatherings. In our case, both girls started reading English first and both of them picked up Spanish later on their own. My oldest had already learned to read English on her own very young, and by 4 she had already applied the rules to Spanish also on her own. My youngest started reading English with instruction and then once her English reading exploded at age 6, she started reading in Spanish with no instruction. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ester Maria Posted July 19, 2010 Share Posted July 19, 2010 We are Italian/English/Hebrew trilingual, even though we don't actually speak the latter that much around the house. Ideally, you start reading in a language that's more phonetic - and in English vs. something else, if the second language is written in the Latin script, you nearly always start with that second language to learn letters and sounds. Kids can transfer that concept quite painlessly to English, and even though you might expect SOME mixing up at the beginning of reading in English (e.g. my kids would not pronounce H, or would mess up a random vowel to "italianize" the word), if you don't make it an issue - it won't be an issue on the long run. The catch is that it's simply EASIER to learn to read in Italian and then apply it to English than vice-versa, Italian being a rather phonetic, regular language. I completely avoided the need for formal English phonics too, since kids just applied everything, but it might not always be the case. Regarding languages which are not written in the same script, it depends on how complex the other script is. Hebrew can be taught more or less simultaneously with reading English (and that's, in fact, how they do it in Jewish day schools, more or less at the same time, if not Hebrew first), but I didn't formally teach them to read Hebrew (despite they knew many letters already) until they could read Italian, then they managed to catch up both English and Hebrew at approximately the same time. The crucial thing is what happens AFTER they learned to read. You should make sure they get plenty of reading material and school-related materials in both languages, all years of their education, and do language arts with literature for both languages if you want them to develop true biliteracy. My kids are rather balanced bilinguals in Italian and English (with Hebrew schlepping along somewhere in the background for the younger one :D, but the older one has developed an age-appropriate literacy in Hebrew too). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shehmeth Posted July 19, 2010 Share Posted July 19, 2010 (edited) We did this - with English and Spanish so far... However, although I do agree with Ester that starting with the one that's more phonetic is always a good choice... But let me back up a bit - She knew the Alphabet Song both in English & Spanish - as well as Italian and French... in fact I used to sing them to her for nap time (yep, lame Mom - LOL) in fact I used to sing her a bunch of songs (in all 4 languages) but the alphabet songs always did the trick, usually by the time I finished singing them E-S-F-I she was asleep, sometimes 1/2 way through, rarely did I have to start a second round... (My son never liked them for nap time, but he asks for them when changing his diaper - go figure - LOL) We started with English out of convenience (not because that had been my plan - I had plan to start with Spanish) - I wanted to use the Spanish Reading Primer I learned to read with, and have (They still print it) but couldn't find it, we had boxed it in the move and it was MIA - but I did have the OPGTR book that I got as a gift, and said - "ok, let's start with something" and started with that... we had done the sounds of the vowels and about 1/2 through the sounds of the consonants when I found the Spanish Primer - and just to check and see one afternoon I took it out and showed her the first page (vowels), she liked it, and wanted to continue, and we did a few pages (M-, P-, etc)... after that we did them simultaneously (not at the same session - and most times not on the same day)... There might be some mixups at first, like for example we have "me" (in English) and "me" (in Spanish) different pronunciation and meaning but the same set of letters.. I used to at first (when doing my own writing on paper and/or index cards for her to read) use different colors for each language - so Green was for Spanish and Blue was for English... when we moved to books, I had to remind her at first when we encountered that word on an Spanish book if she slipped and pronounced it as in English "Now, we're reading in Spanish" "Oh yes, and she would correct herself".... So using different colors might help and come in handy... We do Latin in our school- Latin is red here at home (No apparent reason for the colors - she picks them)... We go over some Italian and French Vocabulary and they have their own colors as well... Somewhere after doing the consonants in the OPGTR we got Hooked on Phonics as a gift... she continued through the HOP series with it for English Phonic/Reading and I continue using the Spanish Primer for Spanish Reading/Phonics... Now, once they are reading - you have to continue to provide them with material to read (fun, school related, etc.) .... this could be hard or easy - depending on the location - I always avoid using books that are "bilingual" both languages on the same page - I find they usually just read one... I can find Spanish and English books here for her to read, at all levels - there are more Spanish-only ones than before (before almost ALL where the bilingual version - with both languages on the same page) that's why I've focused on those languages.... However, finding good reading material here locally for French and Italian at children's level has not been easy, so for now I'm focusing on vocabulary for those... I do language arts in both English and Spanish (a la WTM so Grammar, Writing, Reading and Spelling) and all of my resource material for the other classes are done in both English and Spanish... for example we use WWE - I alternate the exercises so we always do one in Spanish and One in English... Math is bilingual - we learn the terms and concepts in both languages and I have Math books in both Spanish and English (not the same series - oh, wouldn't be so cool - although I did found Singapore Math in french - but I'm digressing) - and Horizons math is my Spine, then I go through my Spanish Math book to get the exercises for the concepts we're studying - this way she has actually a Spanish text in front that must read (instructions) and word problems in Spanish that must be solved.... Except for History - all the other subjects were done like that - for History we would read in English and then discuss either in English or Spanish (alternate) but the Core Text (SOTW) was in English it wasn't until this week that I found a Spanish text that covered World History at Elementary Level.... [so Im happy] If we have for some reason a very heaving English School Day - her independent reading for the afternoon is usually in Spanish and vice-versa... but these days are very few and far between... She reads comfortably in English and Spanish... and enjoys it... She might have a preference for one or the other... The more resources in both languages the less work for you - Yes it could mean more $$ - but my time is limited (work at the University and Volunteer work) so even though in my Dreams I'm this could Mom that has the time to create from Scratch all the materials in all languages - in reality if I care for my sanity I do not have the time.. This is the reason why after translating ALL the WWE1 exercises we did into Spanish, for WWE2 I found my own resources (in Spanish already - no more translating)... Kate Edited July 19, 2010 by shehmeth typo Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matryoshka Posted July 20, 2010 Share Posted July 20, 2010 I taught my kids to read English using the Phonographix method - since it teaches that there can be more than one sound associated with each letter or combination of letters, it made it very very easy for my kids to transfer their knowledge into German and then Spanish. I guess we went from least to most phonetic... :tongue_smilie: They learned to read German almost simultaneously with English - their Sat. School used the Kunterbunt Fibel from Klett in 1st grade. It came with a great chart of all the phonemes in German. They could sound out anything in German by the end of the year (even if they didn't always know what it meant...) And after that, well Spanish was a cakewalk. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deutsche Mama Posted July 20, 2010 Author Share Posted July 20, 2010 Thank you all for your awesome, helpful answers! cmarango, are you using any formal readers or phonics books or other materials? Mabelen, what are you doing about language arts now that both your children are reading both languages—do you do grammar and spelling in both languages? Did you do formal phonics in both languages? Ester Maria, thank you for the advice about starting to read in the phonetically easier language. That is definitely German in our case. So would you recommend starting formal English phonics after he’s mastered (or fairly decent at) German reading? I guess you never did formal English phonics—didn’t that cause spelling problems for your children? I mean, if you don’t do phonics, don’t the kids apply the wrong rules, so to speak? shehmeth, I love your color coding idea! And I’m so impressed that you are teaching your children 5 languages!! And all before the age of 6?! Have you actually started your dd on Latin already? And how do you work with French and Italian, flashcards or anything else? DO you ever try to speak to her in those languages (I’m assuming you speak them yourself?)? Oh and do you primarily speak English or Spanish to her, I mean what is your “home language� Thank you all again!! Laura Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shehmeth Posted July 20, 2010 Share Posted July 20, 2010 (edited) Laura, Our Home Languages are English and Spanish (no particular order) - we speak both, we use both.. Not Spanglish.... I do speak all 4 - I read to them children books in French and Italian - we listen to children songs... I exaggerate the words... As we started Latin on the first day of Latin I pointed to her how all these languages (Spanish, Italian, French, Portuguese, etc) came out of Latin and how you can see Latin has influenced the English Language.... and we did this whole thing where we would choose a Latin word and see how much of it was maintained in the other languages: Amicus (Latin) Amigo (Spanish) Amico (Italian) Ami (French) Amigo (Portuguese) Friend (English) --> So we know this word did not come from Latin... when doing this the colors come in handy... And we did this with a few words - including some words that <b>DO</b> have a Latin base... she loves when we do this (we do from time to time as review to show how the languages are linked together - and how much you already can know about another Romance Language just by knowing Latin and Spanish - pronunciation might be off but reading you can understand)... French and Italian - the focus is exposure - so I read to them, they watch French / Italian cartoons or DVDs (watching the Little Mermaid in the French Sound Track a whole new level)... In first the focus was more on exposure and vocabulary building... I tried to have a tutor - but it didn't quite worked out (she's only a few weeks of the year in town here) - Now in 2nd we'll move more towards More vocabulary but I want to incorporate a syllabic method primer for learning to read such as Leo et Lea or Méthode Boscher for French or use a a syllabic method primer for Italian..... but she has expressed interested in going more in depth with French so we might do that.... although family heritage would scream: Focus on Italian First.. LOL - Now I would go forward with this only (and only if) if I can get find a good amount of reading material at that reading level for her to practice- if not, we'll do another year focusing on vocabulary building and training the ear for the sounds of the languages... **** Disclaimer **** I only do this because of her reading level in English and Spanish is well establish and well above her grade level - if it where at Grade Level - I might put that off for another year, two, maybe three.. Now, she does Watch Ni Hao Kailan - and LOVES the Chinese language - so every day she teaches me a new Chinese word - I'm not doing anything for that... but we did go to China a few years a go, and I do have some chinese words handouts she plays with and such... and she listen to some Chinese CDs I had - we bought her and her brother two children songs in Chinese CDs and she listen to them on her own - when she wants... For Latin we have been doing School Song Latin - (geared to K-3) we're almost done and we'll be moving to the Lively Latin.... We started Latin towards the end of K.... but going slowly - no rush.... during 1st grade we did more, and more - but still the book is very gentle... Best, Kate Edited July 20, 2010 by shehmeth Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cathmom Posted July 20, 2010 Share Posted July 20, 2010 - I wanted to use the Spanish Reading Primer I learned to read with, and have (They still print it) Do you have a link to this? Thanks! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shehmeth Posted July 20, 2010 Share Posted July 20, 2010 (edited) Cathmon, Actually I have the actual book - is not sold online - but when we go to the Dominican Republic is sold there... W go often - and get our Spanish Text Books there for the kids... The version I have is the "Dominican Version" of the primer - as far as I know (because I have seen the version for Honduras, Puerto Rico and another country) the Publisher made a different book for most counties- tweaking the Cover and some things on the inside - because some of the final readings were related to the country's independence, to showcase poems of national poets, etc... As far as I know most versions are discontinue he one for Dominican Republic is still published because another company purchased the rights to continue publishing the book... The number of levels available change also from country to county - I know in Puerto Rico they used to have Level 01, Level 1 and Level 2... in the DOminican Republic they used to have Level 1, 2, and 3 - 1 and 2 can still be purchase at the local libraries in the Dominican Republic, but Level 3 is no longer in print... The difference in the levels: 01 - learning the Alphabet 1 - Primer for reading 2 - Grammar book: verbs, adjectives, nouns, etc. 3 - More advance Grammar Book In Spanish there are certain words that are not the same from country to country - this is another reason why the book was published in various countries.. the Title of the Book is Nacho - so you would have Nacho Dominicano (for Dominican Republic) - Nacho Hondureño for Honduras and so forth.. This is the front cover: Image Source: Blog.. - Now I looked on Amazon for you - apparently some 3rd party sellers do have it - used - but it doesn't say anything about the version and the Version subtitle has been removed from the picture: http://www.amazon.com/Nacho-Silabario-Lectura-Inicial-Coleccion/dp/B000G1LWKU/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1279628829&sr=1-1 and for level 01 for Puerto Rico: http://www.amazon.com/Puertorriqueno-Preescolar-Coleccion-Iniciacion-Lectura/dp/B0015YDFC0 Just keep in mind what I said about certain words being different from country to country - and thus version to version... Kate Edited July 20, 2010 by shehmeth added image Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cmarango Posted July 20, 2010 Share Posted July 20, 2010 Well, I'm not too sure which language you are asking about for the materials I use. So, here is the reply for both. English: We were going to use OPGTR, but I didn't like how quickly sight words were introduced, so now we are using phonics pathways. I have some Bob books, McGuffey readers, and some usbourne easy words books. Spanish: Rod and Staff spanish Nivel A, La Pata Pita, and some other readers that I found last time we were in Colombia. I think that R&S will be our main program. I agree that bilingual books are just awful. Especially, bilingual Dr. Seuss books. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
C_l_e_0..Q_c Posted July 20, 2010 Share Posted July 20, 2010 Ester Maria, thank you for the advice about starting to read in the phonetically easier language. That is definitely German in our case. So would you recommend starting formal English phonics after he’s mastered (or fairly decent at) German reading? I guess you never did formal English phonics—didn’t that cause spelling problems for your children? I mean, if you don’t do phonics, don’t the kids apply the wrong rules, so to speak? Not Ester Maria, but I do agree with her. We started in French, since that's our main language. When my son was about 7 and I judged his English to be good enough, I sat him down with a Magic TreeHouse book and tape. We listened to the tape as we read the book, and I pointed out each word. I used the tape because I didn't want my French accent to disrupt the lesson. That was the end of his English phonics. At the age of 10 he started doing Sonlight Core 6, so you can see that he's a good reader (we didn't do anything read-alouds, he read them all on his own). When my daughter was 7, she wanted to read some books that were not always translated - something aboug Fairies. I decided to try the same trick, but couldn't find the tape. She just took the book and started reading. I'm not entirely sure where she learned to read English. It might be because her brother was around and reading some stuff to her once in a while. She's now reading those cat books by Erin Hunter on her own, at age 10, and doing Sonlight core 3. Her English reading really took off this year. As for spelling, I tried a few spelling programs with my kids, only to find out they had no need for them. They can spell, that's it. As for me, I never had English phonics either, nor did I ever need a spelling program. The more complex the English word, the closer it is to French, and therefore the easier it is to spell for us. There are some trickier words (like Wednesday, or neighbour) that I need to have the kids practise. But then comes in American spelling and Canadian spelling. Sigh... Most of the books they read are printed in the States, but they need to know Canadian spelling - which is the same as British spelling. So there's some corrections going there. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cathmom Posted July 20, 2010 Share Posted July 20, 2010 Thank you, Kate! My dd is studying Spanish in high school, but she has pretty severe dyslexia and she says that looking at the Spanish words does not help her at all. So I was thinking that I may need to actually teach her to read in Spanish, just like English, but had no resources for it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Carol in Cal. Posted July 20, 2010 Share Posted July 20, 2010 Learning to read can be difficult. I favor teaching the language that is easier, first. If there is a big difference in proficiency, by all means teach reading in the language that is better known. If not, then the more phonetic one would be better. In our household, DD started to learn German at 4 or 5, but we do not speak it at home, so she is not nearly as proficient in German as she is in English. She learned to read in English first, and then later in German. This was perfect for her circumstances. Interestingly enough, she was a terrible speller in English. Just awful, to the point where I started the process to have her tested for dysgraphia. However, partly this was because she thought she could never learn to spell properly, and it made her feel foolish and not try as hard as she should have. So when she started to learn to read and write in German, she spelled perfectly. She spelled EVERYTHING perfectly, ALL THE TIME. I pointed this out to her, and she was proud enough of herself to go back and focus on spelling well in English. So her German studies actually ended up being a major help with her English writing skills--an unexpected and quirky result. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mabelen Posted July 20, 2010 Share Posted July 20, 2010 Mabelen, what are you doing about language arts now that both your children are reading both languages—do you do grammar and spelling in both languages? Did you do formal phonics in both languages? My oldest is working through Breaking The Spanish Barrier Level Two for grammar instruction. I have not done formal spelling, but I am planning to do a review with her. I haven't done grammar nor spelling with my youngest but I will at some point, it still undecided exactly when. It didn't seem necessary to do phonics with either of them, they both just seemed to intuitively transfer their English phonics to Spanish. If I ever noticed a mistake I would just point out the different pronunciation rule for Spanish on the spot. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
burckeri Posted July 21, 2010 Share Posted July 21, 2010 We are a mainly English-speaking family living in an English-dominant area of Canada. I speak French as a second language and want my son to grow up bilingual. Although I spoke to him in French regularly starting at his birth and he clearly understood me, he didn't start really speaking French until he started at a French-language school last fall at age 4 1/2. I chose to teach reading in English as it was his dominant language; I started teaching him the correspondences between sounds and letters at age 3. His teacher seemed to think he was a bit behind last year since he didn't know the letter names in French when he started school; I didn't tell her that he was already reading at a first-grade level in English (and I didn't teach him letter names in English either). Since he's in school, I'm letting the school teach him reading in French. I think it's important to have separated the languages to avoid confusion in initial instruction, but now that he has a solid foundation in reading in English, I suspect he'll be able to read easily in French when the school gets around to teaching him. :) I do read to him in French, but I don't ask him to read in French. He's starting to sound out words on packages and such for himself. However, I now have an unusual dilemma. My husband and I are in the process of adopting a child from foster care and we are currently being considered for a 3 1/2 year old boy who speaks French as his home language and currently attends a French daycare. It seems logical to start teaching him to read in French rather than English, but I'm a bit intimidated. I think I could find enough resources for the learning-the-sounds and blending-sounds-into-simple-words phases, but I had an awful time finding appropriate simple reading material in English to build my son's fluency, and I don't even know where to look for such beginning readers in French. If we do end up adopting this boy, I'm tempted to teach him to read in English just because I put so much time and effort into finding resources that I really like, but that might not be in his best interest. I'm not sure what to do. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gordalopez Posted July 21, 2010 Share Posted July 21, 2010 The good thing about learning to read in one language, is that you don't have to learn how to read all over again in the second. What I mean is this: The hard thing about learning to read is that these random squiggles that we call letters represent sounds that are put together to form words that have meaning. Once kids really understand that concept and are starting to sounds things out, they don't have to "re-learn" this idea to read in another language. The concept transfers; especially if the alphabet (Eng/German) is similar. So, I think that you might choose to teach reading in German. Stick to one language until your child really gets it. I would recommend continuing to read stories out loud in English for fun (and as a foundation builder). Once your child can read well and with ease in German (at least first grade level...better second grade level), then that would be a good point to begin English reading. You can talk about the differences in grammar and phonics at that point, and your child will understand. If your child speaks both languages well, then the transition at this point should be easy. Good luck! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ester Maria Posted July 21, 2010 Share Posted July 21, 2010 Ester Maria, thank you for the advice about starting to read in the phonetically easier language. That is definitely German in our case. So would you recommend starting formal English phonics after he’s mastered (or fairly decent at) German reading? I guess you never did formal English phonics—didn’t that cause spelling problems for your children? I mean, if you don’t do phonics, don’t the kids apply the wrong rules, so to speak? I have always been fairly literate in English, and I was never taught formal phonics. In fact, if anything, I misspell "easy" words - as Cleo said, the more complex the word, the easier it actually turns out to be for the speakers of a Romance language. We don't have issues with words such as consequential, equivocate, mellifluous, disingenuous, ameliorate, exculpate, expurgate, impecunious or precipitous (random examples I took from some "college bound vocabulary" list I found online) - we are more likely to misspell simple, everyday words of Germanic origin until we get used to them. The catch with English is that its basis is actually a Germanic one (everyday words: house, sky, children, have, can, water, etc.), while "higher" registers of the language are lexically of Latin origin, via French (of course, keep in mind that this is one big generalization, but I believe we make it for the purposes of this thread). As children begin to read, they might encounter typical spelling issues that the anglophone children have problems with, and it's nothing to worry about (seriously, which child has NEVER misspelled ANYTHING? - don't make it an issue, get upset over it or pass your discomfort onto your children, it's usually NOT because they're bilingual, but because they need to adjust to each system, just like monolingual children need to adjust to their only system), since on the long run, once adjusted to the basic level of the language, things get a whole lot easier for children bilingual in English and a Romance language. So no, spelling is not an issue because of the lack of phonics - until upper middle school IF it's an issue it's an issue to the "normal" extent, and past that, if anything, kids spell BETTER than their monolingual peers and have wider vocabulary. I am NOT saying that "phonicsless" approach is good for everyone in all circumstances (many experts seem to be quite adamant about its need for monolingual children, and I often get convinced as well as I read threads on these boards), but with children bilingual in "typical" languages (Italian, French, German, etc.) it's usually unnecessary, at least to the extent to which monolingual anglophone children need it. Children learn to read without it and spelling doesn't suffer. Children who study English as a foreign language in Europe almost with no exception do NOT get taught phonics, and turn out fine. Regarding applying the wrong rules, again, SOME degree of "mixing" is to be expected with bilingual children, but the most important thing is that YOU are calm and do not get upset over it thinking you are doing something wrong - in a relatively short time span those clear up, children fully separate the systems in their minds and become able to think in each system separately. Just relax. Unless there are severe learning disorders involved, kids will be fine. :) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shehmeth Posted July 21, 2010 Share Posted July 21, 2010 The good thing about learning to read in one language, is that you don't have to learn how to read all over again in the second. What I mean is this: The hard thing about learning to read is that these random squiggles that we call letters represent sounds that are put together to form words that have meaning. Once kids really understand that concept and are starting to sounds things out, they don't have to "re-learn" this idea to read in another language. The concept transfers; especially if the alphabet (Eng/German) is similar. Excellent point.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cathmom Posted July 21, 2010 Share Posted July 21, 2010 The good thing about learning to read in one language, is that you don't have to learn how to read all over again in the second. I've always thought that too, but I think it's going to take more than that for my dyslexia dd. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gordalopez Posted July 22, 2010 Share Posted July 22, 2010 I think you are correct. I think it's a wonderful gift for a child to raise him/her as bilingual and biliterate. At the same time, if that child struggles with learning challenges such as dyslexia, then perhaps learning to read in two languages might overwhelm. It may be best to support speaking in both languages, and wait until the child masters reading in one language before introducing reading in another. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gordalopez Posted July 22, 2010 Share Posted July 22, 2010 For Spanish learners, I recommend Enlace Con el Hogar Actividades en el hogar para el lector principiante by Dominie Press, Inc. It comes with activities, games, little books as well as reading material and suggestions for parents. It's fun and my son feels very successful. He has learned sight words, and is also sounding things out. I check for understanding and he is comprehending what he reads. I really believe that the concept of reading transfers in bilingual children. For example, my son saw the word "stove" and decided to sound in out. He said "stove-eh" because in Spanish there are no silent vowels. But, since he also speaks English, he repeated this word that make no sense a few times, then said "Oh, stove!" Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deutsche Mama Posted July 24, 2010 Author Share Posted July 24, 2010 I really believe that the concept of reading transfers in bilingual children. For example, my son saw the word "stove" and decided to sound in out. He said "stove-eh" because in Spanish there are no silent vowels. But, since he also speaks English, he repeated this word that make no sense a few times, then said "Oh, stove!" How old is your son? Thanks for your excellent points, I think you're right about how the concept of reading will transfer from one language to the other. My only problem or worry is that there might be complications because English phonics are so complicated. If we were, say, a German-Spanish bilingual family I wouldn't worry at all, since both are similarly "phonetically easy" languages. English is just so crazy :) Ester Maria, you're right that children in other countries don't learn English phonics when they learn to read, but I think their situation is a bit different -- they are learning English as a second language, so that's a bit different I think. They are basically learning each new vocabulary word orally and in writing, so they are learning the spelling and pronunciation right along with the meaning of the word. I Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
C_l_e_0..Q_c Posted July 24, 2010 Share Posted July 24, 2010 Ester Maria, you're right that children in other countries don't learn English phonics when they learn to read, but I think their situation is a bit different -- they are learning English as a second language, so that's a bit different I think. They are basically learning each new vocabulary word orally and in writing, so they are learning the spelling and pronunciation right along with the meaning of the word. I I can testify that reading *does* transfer from one language to another as long as it uses similar alphabets. My son was definitely not learning the word as he was learning to decode it. He was already quite fluent with English, and transfered his reading knowledge from French to English, with almost no glitches (some, and we just correct them as we go). No phonics necessary at all. Like 'gordalopez' wrote, at first they will decode using the rules from the first language they learned, but will soon figure out what the proper word sounds like, going from 'stov-eh' to 'stove' for example. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gordalopez Posted July 25, 2010 Share Posted July 25, 2010 DM asked my son's age and about the language I use when homeschooling.... I have two sons. The oldest will be 6 this month, and the other will be 3 in Sept. I use Span only when home with my children. My children hear/speak English with their father, when we are at the community garden with other families, story time at the library, field trips with other homeschooling families and if we have friends/family over who don't speak Spanish. I myself was raised in a bilingual household. I went to public school (English) but spoke Spanish at home with my mother and grandmother. My father's Spanish was ok , but he is a native Eng speaker. This is an anicdote from my childhood that I believes helps to illustrate why you don't need to worry about the phonics piece so much. I learned to read in Eng and never had formal instruction in Span reading. I heard Span a lot and spoke it well. Once when I was about 9 I decided to try and read a book in Spanish. Even though Span is phonetic, there are many things that are Span specific (do not share with Eng). The story began "Hace una vez..." which is the equivalent to "Once upon a time...". Even thought the H is silent, the C sounds like an S and the Z sounds like an S, I could read it. I could read it because I had heard that phrase a million times. I spoke Spanish, I read English, so I could read Spanish. The more I read Spanish, the more I figured out out what the differences/similarities were, and then I was able to write in Spanish as well. I really believe that if you teach reading in German and simultaneously support Eng by speaking, singing, reading aloud etc. Then the transfer will come easily and you can teach those "funky" points as they come up in writing/reading. Best of luck to you and I think it's fabulous that you're teaching your children to be bi-literate and bilingual! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deutsche Mama Posted July 25, 2010 Author Share Posted July 25, 2010 thank you so much for your helpful answer, gordalopez, and the good points you are making about reading and writing. It really makes sense and I should stop worrying. I guess the reason I do worry is outside pressure ("what?? You're not doing phonics??" or "What?? You're not teaching your children to read in English??"). But I know you all are right... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ester Maria Posted July 25, 2010 Share Posted July 25, 2010 Ester Maria, you're right that children in other countries don't learn English phonics when they learn to read, but I think their situation is a bit different -- they are learning English as a second language, so that's a bit different I think. They are basically learning each new vocabulary word orally and in writing, so they are learning the spelling and pronunciation right along with the meaning of the word. I Not necessarily, keep in mind that in most countries foreign language studies are begun quite early (about early elementary), so we're talking about kids that are still developing "proper" literacy in their first language at the time at which they start learning their second languages. Once the child has learned to decode the Latin script, they only need to handle the differences - and if they know the language already (i.e. if they're speakers) decoding is a whole lot easier than the first time when you learn the concept of letters and sounds. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gordalopez Posted July 25, 2010 Share Posted July 25, 2010 I guess the reason I do worry is outside pressure ("what?? You're not doing phonics??" or "What?? You're not teaching your children to read in English??"). But I know you all are right... I guess we have to get used to that kind of "outside pressure" when we homeschool, huh? I think if you explain it to people, they may understand (if not agree). Sometimes people don't realize that there is more than one path to take that reaches the same destination. oops I tried to quote you, but it didn't work. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steven Posted July 26, 2010 Share Posted July 26, 2010 My wife and I raised our daughter (now 6) bilingually in German and English. English is our native language and we live in the U.S. We debated a long time which language to teach first when it came to reading. We opted for English on the grounds that it was the more complicated phonetic system. We were afraid that if she grew accustomed to the easy German phonetics, English reading would be overwhelmingly complicated. We used OPGTR to teach English reading. Last March we began teaching her to read German (we had finished OPGTR about 5 months before that). Because German is relatively phonetical compared to English, she quickly picked up how to read the German. We had difficulty finding a good German reading text book. I hated to order a book from Amazon Germany sight unseen. In the end, we have been using one called Die Biene Maja lernt Lesen, which we found on a trip to Germany. It is not very good, however, as it presents the letters/sounds in alphabetical order, gives a list of words with that letter/sound, and then presents a short story that includes (but is not limited to) those words. We covered the vowels sounds first, and since the German consonants are not that dissimilar to English consonants, our daughter soon was able to read each of the short stories. We are continuing to go systematically through the book, just to make sure we explicitly cover all the sounds. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deutsche Mama Posted July 27, 2010 Author Share Posted July 27, 2010 THat's an interesting story, Steven, thank you for sharing. Just out of curiosity, how does your bilingual homeschool work, i.e. who speaks German to your daughter when? So do I understand you correctly that you taught her to read in English at about age 4 or so and German about a year later? I know what you mean about buying from amazon.de without seeing a book. I am really grateful for those customer reviews though, it does help when making a decision. I think I am going to try Lesen und Rechtschreiben lernen: nach dem IntraActPlus-Konzept -- even though I haven't seen it in person, but it has received really good customer reviews. I hope it will be somewhat decent... Ok just one more question for you, Steven, would you have done anything differently now with hindsight, or do you still think it was best to teach your daughter to read English first? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steven Posted July 27, 2010 Share Posted July 27, 2010 Deutsche Mama: I am a stay-at-home dad and do the homeschooling. To tell the truth, at the moment I am not using as much German as I would prefer. We did not use the one parent one language method (LPOL) since neither my wife or I are native speakers. We did not want to filter our relationship to her through a language that we did not speak completely fluently. So, when she was about 18 months, we both began using German with her. If we could say it in German, we did. If we could express ourselves well, we said it in English. We used the Muzzy course, watched DVDs in German, discussed English DVDs in German (it helped that we watched the same ones over and over--I was able to develop a script, as it were), sang lots of songs, and listened to lots of German CDs in the car. She was about four when we started with OPGTR. The first 30 lessons in that book are a poem, and I started the actual chapters for short vowel words in late October 2008. We finished the book in November 2009. We started the German reading in March 2010. I might of started that a little sooner, but we had a family from Germany visiting us then, and I had her cover all the vowel sounds from the reading book, since as a native speaker she could pronounce things better than I could. To tell the truth, though, I think she was deciphering the German on her own even before we started formal instruction in German. We opted to teach reading relatively early to ensure that she could develop her German vocabulary through reading and not fall way behind native speakers. (I have read that to have true native-speaker capabilities, a child has to average 8 new words a day! Since my daughter already knows all of my vocabulary--at least that which is appropriate for a child--she needs to be reading to get more exposure.) Teaching English first worked for us, but it is our daughter's dominant language, although her German is very good. Germans, both here and in Germany, claim she is fluent. All I know is, she corrects me. We have had this same discussion about reading with the other bilingual English/German families we know, but none of those families homeschool and their kids are just now hitting first grade. So I can't claim to know that teaching English first is best method. I have given some reading books to German friends who live in Germany, but none of them have opted to really use them. As I suggested in my first post, I was afraid my daughter would get too discouraged with English if she were accustomed to reading a more phonetic language first. Like most kids, she does not want to work at things. So by introducing English first, she just accepted the difficulties as part of reading. The only thing I would do different is get a better German reading book. Here are three that I have booked marked on Amazon.de, one is the same one you are looking at: --Lesen lernen leicht gemacht --Lesen und Rechtschreiben lernen: nach dem IntraActPlus-Konzept --ABC der Tiere. Lesen in Silben. Leselehrgang in Druckschrift. (Lernmaterialien) I sought guidance at a bookstore in Bamberg on one of our trips and found out that teaching methodology for reading is in flux in Germany, at least in Bavaria. It sounded like whole language was becoming popular! The store said they carried very little because of this flux. Also, I suspect that few German parents are teaching their children to read at home, and so there is not some much demand for these books. Perhaps the shift to whole language is creating an increase demand for reading books for parents to use. There actually seem to be more on Amazon than when I first looked several years ago. We do have quite a few early reading books in German. She has used a few of them, and once we finish the Biene Maja book, we will focus on the rest. Here is a website you might find useful: http://www.rechtschreib-werkstatt.de/ It is hard to navigate (at least I as a non-native speaker find it hard), but it does have some good songs teaching sounds and pictures. See these pages at this website: http://www.rsw-portal.de/Download/tabid/84/DMXModule/397/Command/Core_ViewDetails/Default.aspx?EntryId=400 http://www.rsw-portal.de/Download/tabid/84/DMXModule/397/EntryId/33/Default.aspx Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gordalopez Posted July 27, 2010 Share Posted July 27, 2010 Deutsche Mama, I still feel that you would not go wrong to teach reading in German. If you live in the US, your children will learn Eng. How could they not? If the true goal is to raise them to be bilingual and bi-literate, then I imagine that you speak to them exclusively in German. It would follow then to teach reading in the language that you speak with them (just as you would use German to teach math, science, history etc). I understand the fear about English phonics becoming confusing later. I just don't think there is cause for concern. Once you have a child who is reading, I don't think that the odd phonics of English will get in their way. Imagine if you were to learn Hebrew which has an entirely different alphabet and reads right to left. Still, you know what it means to read. You know that these sounds make words, and if you spoke Hebrew, it would make sense (even though they don't include vowels at all!). Best, Gorda Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dmmetler Posted July 28, 2010 Share Posted July 28, 2010 I don't know if they'd be available in German, but I've been able to subscribe to the Scholastic News and Let's Find Out magazines (weekly reader type things) in Spanish at my DD's age level, which gives her reading practice in Spanish. They're designed for 6 yr old native speakers. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jld Posted July 30, 2010 Share Posted July 30, 2010 My older kids both learned to read around 7 - 7 1/2 in English, and shortly after (maybe 6 mos. or so?) in French. We didn't teach them to read in either language; it just happened. They had been hearing and speaking English and French all their lives, and when they were ready, it clicked. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gordalopez Posted July 31, 2010 Share Posted July 31, 2010 Congrats! I've heard of that happening with reading. Perhaps I'm just too nervous. I guess do not have the faith to trust that "click" would happen. Do you think it works that way with all kids? Don't you think that some need direct reading instruction? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jld Posted July 31, 2010 Share Posted July 31, 2010 Maybe. I don't know. I understand that not all parents feel comfortable just trusting the child's natural rate of progress. I guess I just think it's more interesting and less stressful than imposing my standards on the kids. Although, I'm sure they would say I do impose some things.;) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
C_l_e_0..Q_c Posted July 31, 2010 Share Posted July 31, 2010 Do you think it works that way with all kids? Don't you think that some need direct reading instruction? The local English school board offers a lot of French immersion programs right from kindergarten. They don't teach those English kids to read English before grade 3, and some schools before grade 4. All the kids can read in both languages by grade 5. The schools offer some phonics instructions, (long vowels vs short vowels) but that's it. If it can be institutionalised, I think it means it can work for all kids... Kids with dislexia are treated a bit differently though. They would need more help but I'm no expert on that subject. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest macrylinda Posted August 17, 2010 Share Posted August 17, 2010 We did this - with English and Spanish so far... However, although I do agree with Ester that starting with the one that's more phonetic is always a good choice... But let me back up a bit - She knew the Alphabet Song both in English & Spanish - as well as Italian and French... in fact I used to sing them to her for nap time (yep, lame Mom - LOL) in fact I used to sing her a bunch of songs (in all 4 languages) but the alphabet songs always did the trick, usually by the time I finished singing them E-S-F-I she was asleep, sometimes 1/2 way through, rarely did I have to start a second round... (My son never liked them for nap time, but he asks for them when changing his diaper - go figure - LOL) We started with English out of convenience (not because that had been my plan - I had plan to start with Spanish) - I wanted to use the Spanish Reading Primer I learned to read with, and have (They still print it) but couldn't find it, we had boxed it in the move and it was MIA - but I did have the OPGTR book that I got as a gift, and said - "ok, let's start with something" and started with that... we had done the sounds of the vowels and about 1/2 through the sounds of the consonants when I found the Spanish Primer - and just to check and see one afternoon I took it out and showed her the first page (vowels), she liked it, and wanted to continue, and we did a few pages (M-, P-, etc)... after that we did them simultaneously (not at the same session - and most times not on the same day)... There might be some mixups at first, like for example we have "me" (in English) and "me" (in Spanish) different pronunciation and meaning but the same set of letters.. I used to at first (when doing my own writing on paper and/or index cards for her to read) use different colors for each language - so Green was for Spanish and Blue was for English... when we moved to books, I had to remind her at first when we encountered that word on an Spanish book if she slipped and pronounced it as in English "Now, we're reading in Spanish" "Oh yes, and she would correct herself".... So using different colors might help and come in handy... We do Latin in our school- Latin is red here at home (No apparent reason for the colors - she picks them)... We go over some Italian and French Vocabulary and they have their own colors as well... Somewhere after doing the consonants in the OPGTR we got Hooked on Phonics as a gift... she continued through the HOP series with it for English Phonic/Reading and I continue using the Spanish Primer for Spanish Reading/Phonics... Now, once they are reading - you have to continue to provide them with material to read (fun, school related, etc.) .... this could be hard or easy - depending on the location - I always avoid using books that are "bilingual" both languages on the same page - I find they usually just read one... I can find Spanish and English books here for her to read, at all levels - there are more Spanish-only ones than before (before almost ALL where the bilingual version - with both languages on the same page) that's why I've focused on those languages.... However, finding good reading material here locally for French and Italian at children's level has not been easy, so for now I'm focusing on vocabulary for those... I do language arts in both English and Spanish (a la WTM so Grammar, Writing, Reading and Spelling) and all of my resource material for the other classes are done in both English and Spanish... for example we use WWE - I alternate the exercises so we always do one in Spanish and One in English... Math is bilingual - we learn the terms and concepts in both languages and I have Math books in both Spanish and English (not the same series - oh, wouldn't be so cool - although I did found Singapore Math in french - but I'm digressing) - and Horizons math is my Spine, then I go through my Spanish Math book to get the exercises for the concepts we're studying - this way she has actually a Spanish text in front that must read (instructions) and word problems in Spanish that must be solved.... Except for History - all the other subjects were done like that - for History we would read in English and then discuss either in English or Spanish (alternate) but the Core Text (SOTW) was in English it wasn't until this week that I found a Spanish text that covered World History at Elementary Level.... [so Im happy] If we have for some reason a very heaving English School Day - her independent reading for the afternoon is usually in Spanish and vice-versa... but these days are very few and far between... She reads comfortably in English and Spanish... and enjoys it... She might have a preference for one or the other... The more resources in both languages the less work for you - Yes it could mean more $$ - but my time is limited (work at the University and Volunteer work) so even though in my Dreams I'm this could Mom that has the time to create from Scratch all the materials in all languages - in reality if I care for my sanity I do not have the time.. This is the reason why after translating ALL the WWE1 exercises we did into Spanish, for WWE2 I found my own resources (in Spanish already - no more translating)... Kate I taught my kids to read English using the Phonographix method - since it teaches that there can be more than one sound associated with each letter or combination of letters, it made it very very easy for my kids to transfer their knowledge into German and then Spanish. I guess we went from least to most phonetic... :tongue_smilie: They learned to read German almost simultaneously with English - their Sat. School used the Kunterbunt Fibel from Klett in 1st grade. It came with a great chart of all the phonemes in German. They could sound out anything in German by the end of the year (even if they didn't always know what it meant...) And after that, well Spanish was a cakewalk. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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