LLATL, FLL, Queen, CW, MCT, & Shurley ... compare these?!

[greenmamato3]

we're currently using our own combo of FLL2 and Shurley 2 (alternating as we see fit) while using WWE2. somedays i dislike the free-formness of FLL2. other days i like it. some days i disdain how overly involved and pedantic certain parts of shurley 2 are .... other days i really like how systematic it is. some days FLL seems to move too slowly for DS and we end up combining several lessons on a regular basis.

 

soooo ..... i'm wondering if there is some sort of balance between the two. it seems to me we could find a better fit .... but i'm overwhelmed.

 

the ones i've mainly considered are LLATL (i think we'd be yellow?), MCT, CW (primer? or aesop?), & Queen (not sure what level).

 

anyone have an idea how to compare and contrast.

 

on the horizon i plan to complete WWE 2 through 4 alongside our grammar instruction then move to CW or WWE. (if we stick with our FLL/Shurley alternating combo approach).

 

my understanding, though, of MCT is that it includes writing. is this the case? is this the case for LLATL as well? i know CW would nix the WWE part of our picture.

 

one thing i really like about CW, LLATL, and Queen is the inclusion of picture study.

 

please help me get some clarity on these programs by comparing and contrasting if you can. TIA! :bigear:

[Mrs Mungo]

I haven't used MCT or CW. I have used LLATL.

 

LLATL does contain writing, both handwriting and creative writing.

 

Have you looked at their website? They have sample lessons on their page:

 

Lesson 15 (click next page at the bottom to see the rest of the lesson, there are several pages in all)

[greenmamato3]

thanks.

i had looked over their website but was getting bleary-eyed from all the sample sheet options. i think yellow is definitely where he'd be.

so, if i were to go with LLATL, is that ALL the language arts instruction i'd need? no WWE? no CW? no spelling?

he's doing 1/2 page of classically cursive each day, queen copywork for little boys (manuscript), ETC 7 as reinforcement (b/c he FLEW through phonics instruction and reads at a late 3rd grade level).

 

does LLATL feel rigorous? how long do the lessons take? is there poetry memorization throughout? are there recommended reading assignments or are they *in* the text itself? is it a classical approach or more CM?

 

thanks, PP, for your help. looking forward to everyone's answers.

[Mrs Mungo]

thanks.

i had looked over their website but was getting bleary-eyed from all the sample sheet options. i think yellow is definitely where he'd be.

so, if i were to go with LLATL, is that ALL the language arts instruction i'd need? no WWE? no CW? no spelling?

he's doing 1/2 page of classically cursive each day, queen copywork for little boys (manuscript), ETC 7 as reinforcement (b/c he FLEW through phonics instruction and reads at a late 3rd grade level).

 

does LLATL feel rigorous? how long do the lessons take? is there poetry memorization throughout? are there recommended reading assignments or are they *in* the text itself? is it a classical approach or more CM?

 

thanks, PP, for your help. looking forward to everyone's answers.

 

Honestly? I skip a lot of the writing assignments and use WWE/Writing Strands. I also use Spelling Workout. I add Voyages in English for my older kids, because I don't think the upper levels give enough grammar instruction.

[Tidbits of Learning]

We will be using LLATL alongside Spelling Workout and GUM (grammar, usage,and mechanics by Zaner Bloser) this upcoming year. I am hoping it is a good combination.

We had tried FLL and Abeka Language this year and had similar issues that you are having either too laid back one day or too stringent the next with one or the other programs.

I have all the programs that I am using next year and LLATL has the book studies but does not have them scheduled out for you to read. You have to schedule them yourself to be read before the book study. I honestly love the way it is set up and looks. I bought LLATL red, orange, and purple. The lessons are easy to follow and include copywork, dictation, and all the trimmings. Everything is scheduled and set up neatly except for how to break up the book studies for reading. That is left up to the parent.

There is definitely writing and research in LLATL. I know the orange has them research their state and write about it. They also learn about newspapers and how they are set up and lots of interesting things. I don't have yellow so I am not sure what all it covers and how much writing is involved. Red is still learning phonics and reading and the next level I have is orange.

I am adding spelling and grammar based on my children's needs. Neither spelling or grammar program that I am using to supplement is a lay it on thick type of program. They will both be more supplemental and scheduled 3 times and 2 times a week.

[greenmamato3]

so if you have to supplement grammar, what's the real "benefit" of LLATL? and what would be my options for supplementing grammar?

suddenly, the LLATL doesn't seem like the right fit. :(

[PeterPan]

Do you realize there's a format shift and big step up from FLL2 to 3? FLL1/2 indeed IS more gentle. FLL3 really ramps it up. We did FLL1/2, then Shurley 2 and on into Shurley 4, 6, and plan to do 7 in the fall. I would do Shurley *or* FLL3, not both. We do Shurley because it fits my grammar-phobic dd. It's gentle, easy, and concise. We get contextualized use through Writing Tales, CW, etc., so there has never been an issue of whether Shurley is "enough". If you like one or the other of what you're doing, I would pick one and just do it, no need to keep looking for more programs. If your sorta like FLL and just want to see it ramp up, well never fear, it will in FLL3.

[Crimson Wife]

somedays i dislike the free-formness of FLL2. other days i like it.

 

Can you elaborate on what you mean by this? I used FLL 1/2 and wouldn't characterize it at all as "free form" but I'm not sure if I'm understanding that term in the same way you intended.

 

I'm thinking that if you find FLL 1/2 to be too "free form" than you wouldn't like how MCT organizes his books at all. But it all depends on whether I understand your complaint about FLL correctly.

[greenmamato3]

Do you realize there's a format shift and big step up from FLL2 to 3?

no i didn't. thanks for this info.

I would do Shurley *or* FLL3, not both.

i was thinking we'd "fly through" FLL2 this summer, (since we've taken a break from our shurley 2+FLL alternation) then return to the shurley 2 as our singular approach to grammar (while maintaining WWE2) .... and then ??

 

would FLL3 work well after shurley 2? or would i stick with shurley and go to 4 at that point, while sticking to WWE through level 4??

 

i wasn't going to do FLL*3* with shurley .... :) rather, FLL2.

 

in answer to the "free form" question of PP ...

i would clarify that by saying that it's too loose and non-systematic. i feel like it's challenging to him one day and the next he's bored and wondering why there's basically only "review". i like the poetry being included as well as the dictation, though i do our spelling work through dictation practice and there's the WWE dictation. what i like about the shurley is that it has the jingles and is predictable and systematic {though i don't understand why it's possible and frequently done to skip a level, as an aside}. what i like about FLL is that it seems more gentle and do-able in just 20 min.

 

i dont' care whether the LA program is scripted or not. i'm fine with teaching LA without a script b/c english is a strong suit for me. i'm fine scheduling my own reading assignments and plan to use an occasional study guide from progeny press or from memoria press. i assign his reading to correlate to our history studies, science studies, or from my own literature choices. he has a free-reading shelf of books to choose from that he gets to choose the titles for.

 

what does MCT include or not include? (poetry, etc ....)

what does LLATL include or not include?

what would i gain by finishing WWE through level 4 and then switching to CW? would i need a grammar program along with CW at that point?

 

i think it's hilarious that the easiest subject for me personally is one of the most difficult for me to implement here at home .... it's hard for me to choose. :)

 

could i:

option 1:

FLL2-->Shurley 2-->MCT _what level_?

if i did that, would i need to keep WWE when i got to MCT?

 

option 2:

FLL2-->Shurley 2 -->FLL3? (obviously keep WWE)

 

option 3:

FLL2 --> Shurley 2 -->CW Aesop

 

how much "vocabulary" or workbook-type supplementing does one have to do with FLL, MCT, CW, or LLATL .... like vocabulary building with greek and latin roots, etc. DS LOVES this kind of thing and i want to bring that in as much as he's capable and interested at each stage of the game. i've got my eye on Bridge to Latin Road, etc.

 

 

sorry for the long post. if ya'll get tired of talking about this, it's ok :)

[greenmamato3]

Can you elaborate on what you mean by this?

i answered this in my last post amidst the other comments.

 

btw, why would *you* categorize MCT as freeform -- perhaps i would benefit from understanding what your "take" on that term is :bigear:

[Lovedtodeath]

I would go with FLL 3 or Shirley.

 

You asked about Queens'... Queen's is mostly copywork. We enjoyed the poetry and literature, but WWE and FLL have that too. Queen's assumes that your child has a very low reading level/phonics understanding but high tolerance of large amounts of writing. The exact opposite was true.

[greenmamato3]

Queen's assumes that your child has a very low reading level/phonics understanding but high tolerance of large amounts of writing. The exact opposite was true.

 

carmen, do you mean that the exact opposite was true for your DD ?

DS has HIGH reading level and low tolerance for writing....

[Crimson Wife]

 

in answer to the "free form" question of PP ...

i would clarify that by saying that it's too loose and non-systematic

 

Gotcha. You and I have a similar understanding of the term. I will say that if you feel FLL 1/2 is not systematic enough for your tastes then you will likely find MCT even less so.

 

I really liked how JW organized FLL 1/2. All the lessons related to a particular topic are in one place. The book covers it thoroughly, then moves on to the next topic. I can take a look at the table of contents and it makes logical sense to me.

 

MCT's grammar instruction is very different. It *IS* "meaty" if one uses all of the components in the level but it strikes me as, well, rather ADDish. It jumps from one topic to the next and then later on circles back to the first topic. If you want information on a given topic, it is spread out over 3 different books. There's no easy way of finding which sentences in Practice Town contain the particular thing you're looking for without manually scanning through the teacher's manual page by page. :banghead:

 

The story aspect of MCT is fun and I :001_wub: Ceasar's English. Overall, I think it's been a worthwhile program and I probably will continue on with the "voyage" level when my DD is ready to tackle Essay Voyage.

[PeterPan]

Greenmama, I think you're overthinking this. Many people with advanced/capable kids to FLL1/2 in short order. Personally, we did it in K5 an part-way into 1st, then moved on to Shurley 2. Yes, there's a ton of repetition. No, we didn't do those lessons. So you need to unbind yourself a bit and just do what he needs, skip the repetition, cover the meat, and move on. I don't see the point of doing Shurley 2 and then going back to FLL2. You should accelerate through FLL1/2, finish it, then move on to Shurley 2. At that point you're starting to apply your FLL1/2 concepts, and you're going to see if you hit any developmental barriers or not. Every kid is different, and you can't say what he'll be ready for next. It's no problem to do Shurley 2,4,6,7. If you did not already have 2, then you could have chosen to do 3,5,7. It really doesn't matter. Some kids NEED the repetition of more levels. My dd didn't, so we just took our time, doing levels while we also did writing programs incorporating grammar (WT, CW, etc.). That way you don't have to be so picky about how often you get to your grammar, knowing you're hitting it both places.

 

Don't overthink this. I would learn how to accelerate material (condensing, telescoping, etc.), and get that FLL1/2 moving, finished. Then do Shurley 2 and see where you're at. You may decide you hate Shurley after you do a book of it, hehe. Actually, we did Shurley 2, tried R&S (which really did about kill her, gagging with an intellectual spoon), and then went back to Shurley to stay. It's really kid-specific. We diagram one sentence from each 3 or 5 sentence set, and I highly recommend it. I would start that in Shurley 3 or 4, not 2.

[Lovedtodeath]

carmen, do you mean that the exact opposite was true for your DD ?

DS has HIGH reading level and low tolerance for writing....

My DD was the same as your son. Queen's is not set up for these children.

[radiobrain]

I agree with OH Elizabeth... in that you are over-thinking it a bit. Relax, it'll be fine.

 

Based on your choices and questions, I also think that you might not like MCT.

 

However, you did ask, and I don't think anyone really answered your questions about it.

 

As you have a 7 yo, you would start at Island level. It is written for gifted 3rd/ average 4th but can be used both under that and above. For a 7 yo, unless very advanced, you should start there... especially as even very advanced kids would have some trouble with Voyage level. I know that Crimson Wife did Town level with her 7 yo (isn't that right?) and now she is needing/wanting to wait to move on.

 

The thing is that MCT is a very different program in how it is presented, and how the teacher uses it. It is Teacher intensive in that it works best when read with the child and discussed. It also doesn't have set lessons, it has chapters... but it is up to you how much or little you do at a time. I stick a bookmark in it. The teacher suggestions and tests/answers are all separate in the back so you need to look through them, decide what you are going to do and when. Island level is the most "freeform" in this way. Town level has more clear cut lesson/assignment sections, and I will assume that Voyage is more of the same... I haven't really delved into mine yet.

 

It covers grammar, vocab, poetry and writing... in a very thorough, engaging way. Island level writing is a bit odd, ( I didn't do any of the assignments) but the concepts covered are excellent and start the deep thinking about writing and choices you make in writing. If you are doing other writing practice at that level (like WWE or copywork/dictation, whatever else) it is fine. OR you can just skip that part and work on it the next year. ;)

 

All the other things you mentioned are more closely related to each other, MCT is in a category all by itself.

 

Whatever choice you make, will get the job done if you stick with it. :D

Good luck!

Edited June 24, 2010 by radiobrain

[Mynyel]

We are currently using LLATL Red and Tan and MCT.

 

Both my kids love them.

 

What I have liked about LLATL is that it is simple to implement and easy for them to understand. The approach, for us anyway :D, is gentle enough to not be overwhelming with a lot of language facts at the same time.

 

It is kind if hard to explain. :D What I like too is, other than the dictation, it always seems to be different. Sure some of the activities are the same but at different points in the lessons so that it doesn't become monotonous.

 

Now on to MCT! MCT does cover a lot in a little time. It slams a lot at you in a short time. However it is done in such a way that the kids love it! My son looks forward to MCT and always wants to read it on his own and would have read Grammar Island all in one day if I let him.

 

That being said the way MCT does it you end up reading Grammar Island twice so it isn't bad. I really like the program.

 

I like both of them and will continue to use both until I feel the need to change...which hopefully won't be for a long time (never! :))

 

Hope this helps!

 

:grouphug:

[ourjourneys]

We also use writing strands and spelling workout. I feel that for the years through 4th grade this is enough. We will begin with imitation in writing and incorporate more writing activities for 5th grade.

[greenmamato3]

thanks for all the different perspectives :) i like hearing how the programs differ and such. :grouphug:

[Guest RecumbentHeart]

:bigear: I need to come back and read this tomorrow .. when I'm awake. Sounds like some interesting info.

[LindaOz]

so if you have to supplement grammar, what's the real "benefit" of LLATL? and what would be my options for supplementing grammar?

 

 

We use LLATL as our LA 'spine'. I also have my kids do additional grammar 2x a week. My older two use R&S while my 6th and 4th graders are currently using Abeka. The grammar programs teach grammar through exercises, whereas LLATL is more contextual grammar. I find that the two approaches complement each other which I think is an advantage.

 

HTH

[greenmamato3]

linda, this is a good point. i like the idea of them being comfortable with either scenario. thanks for drawing that distinction :)