s/o on the early reader post: does my almost 5 yo need phonics?

[Halcyon]

My almost 5 year old is reading and spelling well. He reads pretty much anything quite well, although of course comprehension limits the material available to him. He can read very challenging words and has had limited formal instruction. He works in his Horizon Phonics book occasionally, but finds it a bit boring. He occasionally works with the HeadSprout acct we bought for him last year, but again, it's not a challenge.

 

I actually hadn't considered doing a formal phonic program with him at all until I read that other thread about early readers :001_huh: I figured if he just keeps reading challenging books, and I keep reading to him, and we continue to work on spelling and writing, both of whihc he loves, it will all come together. He doesn't have a problem with READING words like "telephone", "whether", "would" or "cough", which my first definitely needed to work with (but he would have a problem spelling them)

 

Can anyone give opinions as to whether I should or should not do a formal phonics program? Would you just start with a 1st grade spelling program? If so, which one? He works fairly independently, and enjoys workbooks. I looked at ETC, even up to the sample pages in ETC 3, and it looks too basic? But I don't want to skip anything either....Perhaps we shouldd just continue with Horizons 1 for Phonics.

Edited June 2, 2010 by Halcyon

[Staceyshoe]

I've heard of success and regrets both ways. I think there are two key questions to ask:

 

Does he read with phonics? Many early readers do not and SWB says that they often hit a wall in about 4th grade, and it's really hard to go back and do phonics at that point. Most early readers use a combination of memorization, context, and intuition to read.

 

How does he learn best? Parts to whole? Whole to parts? My early reader does read phonetically but it is self-taught so there could be gaps. Additionally, he always likes knowing the structure behind something. If he's given a new piece of info, he tries to figure out that "rule" that helps it makes sense and fit with everything else he knows. Because his mind seems to naturally seek a larger framework, we're doing phonics to make sure he hasn't missed anything. I expect we'll go through it very quickly, but I would hate to skip it and then regret it later.

[Jen in PA]

DD was reading well before we did any formal phonics. I went ahead and did the first 6 books (and half of book 7) from ETC figuring they were gentle handwriting/following directions activities that would also ensure that any gaps were filled. DS is now reading well without a ton of formal phonics instruction, and I'm doing the same with him. I am not sure that it is entirely necessary for an early reader, but I figured it certainly wouldn't hurt.

[Karenciavo]

I agree with Stacey. My ds15 taught himself to read at 4 or 5 and it was all pretty much memory, he never hit a wall but he still stinks at spelling. My youngest taught himself to read at 3 and it was via phonics - he loved Leap Frog products and I attribute it to that and the fact that his mother left him to his own devices a lot as she home schooled his older brothers :tongue_smilie: I didn't want there to be gaps so I purchased TATRAS and we kind of worked through it, but mostly he memorized the rules via SWR flash cards, Flashcard Exchange has them.

[mlktwins]

One of my almost 5 year olds is reading at a 4th to 5th grade level -- self taught. He is pretty good at spelling also, but I think he does it more from memory (he has the memory of an elephant:001_smile:) and not from sounding the words out. I don't want to miss anything so I'm planning to cover phonics using OPGTR and ETC (which I need to do with his twin anyway) and will look into a formal spelling program after that.

[TracyP]

ETC was really feeling like busy work for my 4 yo and I don't think he is reading as well as yours. We just skipped pages but it was getting ridiculous. I just bought Phonics Pathways and am so happy. When he gets it - we move on. I control how much review and there is no writing required. I do dictate from it and so far he can spell what he can read. I will still do spelling later but I figured it is good reinforcement.

[monalisa]

My dd who is now 7, was in similiar spot. She is reading now a much higher than 2nd grade level (5th or 6th? not sure). She had even gone to private K and had some of the single letter sound phonics, but I went ahead and went through OPGTR with her (starting wherever it is that single letter sounds end). She had started reading on her own, with no prep or help from me, prior to K as a sight reader (I still rarely hear her sound out a word). We went through OPGTR relatively quickly, sometimes doing several lessons a day (I'd just have her read the passages sometimes). I am very glad I did it with her. I did hit things now and then that were stumbling blocks for her, especially toward the end of the book. It didn't take much time out of the day at all (5 or 10 min at most). I've also used AAS with her, and we're part way through level 2. I now have her doing 1 page per day of MCP Plaid phonics level B. It takes her 5 minutes. I feel like I want to make sure she has all the phonics covered so she doesn't hit any wall later.

[Dinsfamily]

I plan on teaching my 4yo early reader phonics through SWR starting in K. He's doing fine on his own, so I don't see any reason to start it early. He has taught himself phonetically, but I'm not sure how complete it is or if he can apply it to spell difficult words. SWR teaches phonograms and rules without boring a child who's already reading IME. He is already a pretty good speller too, but I don't plan on skipping the early lists. We'll take the opportunity to practice writing and get used to school. We might go faster than I did with his older brother, though. It is easy to skip ahead in the program if needed.

 

I think it would be hard for my ds to go through a phonics program like OPGTR because he tends to tune out when he already knows something. I'm not sure he would tune back in to fill in the gaps, IYKWIM.

[Lovedtodeath]

I think that you should at least make sure that he learns all of the phonograms. Like I said earlier, I think that the AAS interactive CD ROM is a good way of doing that. If there is a cheap or free option, (that isn't as boring as flash cards) then all the better.

 

I also like to have the phonics and spelling rules available so that when you come to a word that they are having trouble reading/sounding out/spelling then you can teach it the right way, instead of relying on whole word methods in that case.

Edited June 2, 2010 by Lovedtodeath

[squirtymomma]

ETC was really feeling like busy work for my 4 yo and I don't think he is reading as well as yours. We just skipped pages but it was getting ridiculous. I just bought Phonics Pathways and am so happy. When he gets it - we move on. I control how much review and there is no writing required. I do dictate from it and so far he can spell what he can read. I will still do spelling later but I figured it is good reinforcement.

 

:iagree: I think workbooks would feel tedious for a kid who is already reading. I think just going through Phonics Pathways or OPGTR would help give exposure and solidify good habits (left to right tracking, sounding out when a word is unfamiliar) fairly painlessly. He'll whiz through them, and that's ok. It will be a very small part of your day.

[VBoulden]

:)

Edited June 2, 2010 by VBoulden

[Dinsfamily]

ETC: I deleted my post since the pp deleted hers and I was just responding to it.

[Tracy]

I tried doing a phonics program with my 4yo early reader, and it completely bombed. She hated it, and her reading level continue to soar way faster than the phonics program could keep up with her. We were both so happy when we dropped it in favor of a phonics-based spelling program.

[Halcyon]

I've heard of success and regrets both ways. I think there are two key questions to ask:

 

Does he read with phonics? Many early readers do not and SWB says that they often hit a wall in about 4th grade, and it's really hard to go back and do phonics at that point. Most early readers use a combination of memorization, context, and intuition to read.

 

How does he learn best? Parts to whole? Whole to parts? My early reader does read phonetically but it is self-taught so there could be gaps. Additionally, he always likes knowing the structure behind something. If he's given a new piece of info, he tries to figure out that "rule" that helps it makes sense and fit with everything else he knows. Because his mind seems to naturally seek a larger framework, we're doing phonics to make sure he hasn't missed anything. I expect we'll go through it very quickly, but I would hate to skip it and then regret it later.

 

No, I don't think he does. I mean, how would I know? He reads!:lol: I mean, he just picks up the book and reads, no sounding out.

[EmilyGF]

I'd do some very minimal phonics. Enough that he can sound out words from the dictionary when he goes to college. You could teach phonograms and then select the longest word from random pages in the dictionary as a way to practice! I learned to read without phonics but was quite embarrassed at college when I would sound out words improperly. (My Texan friend always corrected me, rarely quietly!)

 

Emily

[mom2att]

My first was like this. She just . . . started reading and read anything and everything. I also found she was pretty good at spelling. I did no phonics with her, but beginning in K or 1st (I can't remember) I did start Spelling Workout with her, and we did that through maybe 4th grade. SWO gives a list of words and a rule that coordinates with the list, so there is some phonics going on there. At least it was enough for her to learn how to spell the words that may not be obviously phonetic.

 

She's 14 now and still a great speller and reader. I think some kids just figure it out without needing to be taught.

[RahRah]

Here is my experience as an adult who self-taught to read early (age 4) - in K I was shuttled to first grade for reading, but taught no phonics or phonemic awareness since I was already reading - I was given books to read while the other kids learned to read; by second grade I was reading books beyond 4th grade and sent to independently read or do SRA reading labs (reading comprehension - which I did one box in one day and annoyed my teacher)....by third grade, the school didn't know what to do with me, so I was still sent off to read while others were taught rules and phemones, etc. Basically, through the most important years for a foundation of phonemic awareness, I was sent off to read since I was already reading, and not taught the rules.

 

I have always been a powerful reader, my comprehension is excellent and even my spelling is very good....but....I lack one important skill - I was never taught phonemic rules, which when I read doesn't matter all that much since I usually *know* what a word mean, but when I pronounce it out loud, sometimes I get it wrong. Because of this, I am more keenly aware that reading isnt just phonics - it's also getting to know the rules and why some words are spelled one way, but pronounced another, not so phonetically.

 

Now that I'm teaching my son, five, to read, I've taken oodles of time to learn the phonemic rules myself so that I can teach them to him and make sure I pronounce things accurately for him. For the vast majority of words it's never been a problem for me - it's the oddballs, like paradigm, that have sometimes thrown me off.....sometimes it's embarassing!.....I know the word for goodness sake!...so that's why I'm making sure DS is getting the phonics and the phonemic awareness too.

[Halcyon]

So do you all recommend Spelling Workout for this child? My oldest is using Megawords and we like it fine, so I am not familiar with other spelling programs out there.

[monalisa]

Just my opinoin: If you want workbook spelling, SWO is probably as good as any.

 

However, if you use All About Spelling, which is a phonics based spelling program, you'll hit cover the phonics gaps your ds might have too because he'll be learning the phonograms. If you read reviews of AAS, people say it has improved their children's reading. The downside to AAS is that it requires you to teach it; it is not a "hand them the workbook" program.

 

I've been using AAS, and like it pretty well. Lots of people here love it.

 

Even though I went through OPGTR w/ dd, she still isn't great at sounding out words she comes to that she doesn't know (which isn't all that often, but she needs to be able to do it), so I feel I need to stick w/ a phonogram based spelling program. Overall she reads at about 5th or 6th grade though.

[Dana]

My son is self-taught for reading. His vocabulary is impressive and he reads very fluently - except for names. He didn't have any awareness of phonics and actively resisted sounding any words out.

 

Last year we switched from Spelling Workout (despite all we were doing with it he was just learning words for the test and not mastering them at all) to All About Spelling. His progress has been WONDERFUL. We still struggle with his desire on occasion to make a wild guess at a word, but he's doing so much better at sounding out names and at sounding out words when spelling.

 

I'd recommend AAS over SWO and then you don't need to do separate phonics.

 

If you want to know if your son is having phonics problems, find one of the lists of nonsense words and see how he pronounces those. That could give you more information on what you need. My son mangled names so badly it was really clear to me we needed a change. :)

[Tracy]

So do you all recommend Spelling Workout for this child? My oldest is using Megawords and we like it fine, so I am not familiar with other spelling programs out there.

 

Just my opinoin: If you want workbook spelling, SWO is probably as good as any.

:iagree:

But I would not recommend workbook spelling for a 5yo. We just finished SWO A with my 5yo, and although she has wonderful handwriting, we still had to do this orally, because it would take her too long to do on her own. I would happily stay with SWO if I thought that dd was getting something out of it, but I don't feel that the phonics is strong enough. I am not familiar with any other programs, but I have been researching programs to switch to.

[Lovedtodeath]

I don't understand. Megawords is an excellent program. Why would you not want to use it with this child?

[wimama]

I think it was my post you where referring too. I am the product of learning to read by sight reading and that is the reason I want my son to learn phonics. I think I would have been better served learning to read with phonics. I am a highly visual learner and I can see big similarities in my son’s learning style and my learning style.

 

I have always been a slower reader and spelling was always one of my worst subjects. I was such a visual learner that in high school, college and professional school, I rarely learned very much during lectures. I don’t absorb information well by just listening to it in class or talking it over. I always had to spend a lot of time reading and looking at my notes processing it. I would even wright things out over and over when I wanted to memorize something. It didn’t stop me from graduating for professional school, but I know I had to put in a lot more hours studying with my notes and books than my peers did.

 

I am already seeing my son learning words though sight, despite having a basic knowledge of phonics. Since, his learning style seems so similar to mine I want him to have the advantage of having a good foundation in phonics. I am hoping by him listening to the sounds of letters and words he will be developing pathways in his brain that will make it easier for him to learn using his auditory sense. In fact we originally, exposed him to the Leap Frog Phonics videos in an effort to improve his pronunciation, which was lagging behind some of his preschool peers. His pronunciation has improved since watching those videos. So, I do think phonics helps him focus more on listening. Hopefully that will help him as he advances to the higher grade levels.

 

I am going back and forth between Headsprout and Explode the Code. And haven't decided which one to pursue yet.

[Lovedtodeath]

I wasn't referring to your post, but...

I am going back and forth between Headsprout and Explode the Code. And haven't decided which one to pursue yet.

From what I understand both of those are very easy to do without learning phonics. (My DD was able to sight read her way through ETC, and I have had some people who are using Headsprout asking me privately about OG programs.) Just an FYI.

[wimama]

I wasn't referring to your post, but...From what I understand both of those are very easy to do without learning phonics. (My DD was able to sight read her way through ETC, and I have had some people who are using Headsprout asking me privately about OG programs.) Just an FYI.

 

Any other suggestion then?

[Lovedtodeath]

I am hoping by him listening to the sounds of letters and words he will be developing pathways in his brain that will make it easier for him to learn using his auditory sense. In fact we originally, exposed him to the Leap Frog Phonics videos in an effort to improve his pronunciation, which was lagging behind some of his preschool peers. His pronunciation has improved since watching those videos. So, I do think phonics helps him focus more on listening. Hopefully that will help him as he advances to the higher grade levels.

Reading Reflex is good for this.

 

I have also been looking at Dancing Bears. I have looked at a lot of programs, most of them Orton-Gillingham based (explicit multi-sensory phonics with NO sight reading) and Dancing Bears looks very good.

[wimama]

Reading Reflex is good for this.

 

I have also been looking at Dancing Bears. I have looked at a lot of programs, most of them Orton-Gillingham based (explicit multi-sensory phonics with NO sight reading) and Dancing Bears looks very good.

 

Thank you!

[Halcyon]

I don't understand. Megawords is an excellent program. Why would you not want to use it with this child?

 

MW is recommended for 4th grade and up (I blieve) and we are using it with my 7 yo who is a natural speller. But I don't think my 5 yo would be ready for this program!

 

I am leaning towards AAS, thank you all.

[Halcyon]

Okay, so I am looking at the AAS website. I looked at sample pages for AAS Level 1 and Level 2 and wow. They look teacher intensive....hmmmm....just trying to be realistic about my child's style and he really, really prefers workbooks. NEed to give this some more thought...

[Lovedtodeath]

MW is recommended for 4th grade and up (I blieve) and we are using it with my 7 yo who is a natural speller. But I don't think my 5 yo would be ready for this program!

 

I am leaning towards AAS, thank you all.

OH! DOH!;) I didn't realize that. I need to pay attention.

 

So now we need to work on finding workbooks. Hmmm... surely someone can help you out. The How to Spell workbooks that go along with How to Teach Spelling are very much like AAS in workbook form, so you might like those, but the other half of the program is dictation. Doing the first 2 together might be an idea though. I personally would just go through the phonograms in whatever way possible. AAS phonogram CD, HTS workbooks, or flashcards, any of them will be fine as an interim until you can start Megawords.

Edited June 10, 2010 by Lovedtodeath

[ubermomto5]

my oldest 4 kids have all taught themselves to read without formal phonics instruction. i just read with them and talk to them about how to read it and they have all figured it out by the end of kindy. my oldest is almost 13 and has no trouble reading, nor do any of the others. so, i've never spent my time on phonics because i feel it's not a good use of my time.