Idiot's Guides, Dummy's Guides, etc.

[jld]

I just saw Janice in NJ's recommendation of one of these for American literature, and I'm pretty sure I've seen others recommend these, too. Have you used them as a spine for courses? Would you say they are fairly complete in themselves? Would you recommend them?

[asta]

The chemistry one is certainly complete. And the author has a website complete with worksheets.

 

I am using it along with a couple of other texts. I know it is silly, but I don't want his only Chem text on his reading list to be "Chemistry for Idiots".

 

 

a

[jen_white]

we used the idiots guide to american government. I made up my own quizzes. We all learned a lot!

[K-FL]

 

The English Grammar Workbook for Dummies covers it all & you don't need anything additional.

[Ester Maria]

Out of principle I would not use - and if I used, I would most certainly not formally enlist them along the other works I used! - books entitled "The Idiot's Guide to X", "X for Dummies", etc. I don't consider myself or my children to be idiots or dummies, and while I realize that it might just be a catchy name and that the books might be a good resource, there is no way I would enlist that in a school context - it would take away from the credibility of the entire transcript and the other things we were doing.

[cathmom]

none of the colleges my ds applied to asked for a list of texts. one asked what math program we used, but that was it.

[Corraleno]

For those of you who use these, which of the two series do you prefer? Is there any overall difference in tone, comprehensiveness, etc., between the two series, or does it just depend on the individual subject and author?

 

Jackie

[Ester Maria]

none of the colleges my ds applied to asked for a list of texts. one asked what math program we used, but that was it.

It doesn't even have to be college-related, I'm talking about a general principle. Well, my own at least. :)

 

What's the first thing I do when reading an essay? I turn the last page to see the cited works. If amongst those I notice work in the rank of Wikipedia (or even too general works which do have a clear author - you cannot write an assignment with quotes from your typical general encyclopaedia, you need to use resources "from the field"), I'm tempted to stop reading the whole essay, no matter how brilliant in the end it might be. :)

When I consult a professional work, what's the first thing I do? I skim through list of cited and recommended works, the index of frequent and relevant terms used, and I check who wrote the recension more than what's written in the recension. Those, when combined, usually give a pretty decent light not only on what's written in the work, but on the ideological background of the work as well.

 

When I want to see what some course teaches, what do I do? I look for a detailed syllabus with bibliography (both primary and secondary, elective), and more often than not, I look into the credentials of the person who teaches it and who approved the course.

That's just what people do, having a "clean" list helps a whole lot (especially if teacher's qualifications are not "clean", which is the case in the homeschool setting) - and adding in works of debatable quality, debatable recensions, especially those aimed at masses rather than aimed to serve as textbooks for a relatively specialized course, ruins the impression even if you have a great student who knows a lot about the material. Even if such works help, even if they're great aid (and a lot of "popularizing" material does a great job at explaining things to starters, I agree), you can't list them, and you especially can't list only a single work of such a profile.

 

Simply put, the more serious the academic level we talk about, the more people will judge you by your resources. It's certainly not crucial what you use with a 6 y.o., but what you use with a 16 y.o. matters, and what a 26 y.o. uses for his thesis not only matters, but makes all the difference. ;)

And even if nobody asks, I guess for some people it's simply the issue of their personal standard of excellence, in lack of better expression (yeah, I know that that one sounds terribly elitist, but I can't think of anything with a more neutral flavor). I would never suggest works of that profile for my field to be used as a basis of a course, even if they're good as unofficial supplements, so I suppose it's the same with other fields.

 

Only my .02, of course.

Edited May 21, 2010 by Ester Maria
added in a few smilies, since I figured out I might again come off differently than I intended

[Robin in DFW]

SWB recommends the Government variety of one these...can't think of which one at the moment.

 

She's a college professor and I figure if she feels it's okay...why not? :001_smile:

 

If you feel it necessary to have a "reputable" book as your main reference (or even just for show), then do so, but don't dismiss these titles because of...ummm...the title...kwim?

 

They are FULL of excellent, precise information. No fluffy stuff.

 

I will be looking at the Government one for next year.

[cathmom]

Ester Maria, you crack me up! :lol: You don't need to use smilies for my benefit!

 

I agree with you. I think those books are a good place to start. A long time ago, I read the advice that when you wanted to learn about a new subject, you should start by reading children's books on the topic. I consider these to the be that equivalent. I don't like the titles, but that wouldn't stop me from reading it if I thought it would help.

 

BTW, I didn't capitalize before because I was holding my son!

[Ester Maria]

She's a college professor and I figure if she feels it's okay...why not? :001_smile:

I taught at university. ;) A lot of my close friends still do, in fact. Some of my extended family members do or did too.

 

I'm talking exactly out of experience here, my own and their own, since it's one of those ever-present topics we talk about a lot. Each of us can speak only about their own field with certainty, of course and ultimately judge resources from and for their own field only. But there are some "repeating patterns" all across the board, so very often even if you're not a Chemistry expert, you recognize various "profiles" of Chemistry textbooks...

 

If you feel it necessary to have a "reputable" book as your main reference (or even just for show), then do so, but don't dismiss these titles because of...ummm...the title...kwim?

Sure, I get your point about that - the title is the least important element of the book. We fully agree here. :)

The problem, however, is far more complex than the title. The title is merely a "warning sign" for a specific "profile" of books (and doesn't have to be true, of course) which, no matter how good as free-time supplements they are, can't be used as a basis of a course. I'm also fully aware that a lot of those "popularizing" works were written by the people from the field in attempt to familiarize the masses with very complex topics, and I don't negate that a lot of those books, in their superficiality, are actually quite precise and offer a plethora of relevant information.

ETA: So when you organize a course around one such book, or at least a book highly alluding to be that (even if it's not), you're somewhat taking off points from your "credibility", nothing more. Of course that a placement test or a discussion would solve the issue and show whether you know the material as well as somebody who used a more "reputable" course - but people often don't have time for that, nor an interest to go in-depth with everybody, so they'll quick-judge you based on what you've listed as your sources. That's why I think that that "profile" of works should not be listed, or at least not be listed without other titles as well. They do make great starting points, and great supplements, more often than a great primary material.

 

However, Konrad Paul Liessmann said it all and wrote it all; unfortunately, the anglophone market seems not to be interested in his short and brilliant analysis of what's wrong with the education today, and books of that "profile" - and the fact they're used so widely! - reflect that very nicely. But that's already another debate. :)

Edited May 21, 2010 by Ester Maria
smilies :D

[Ester Maria]

I agree with you. I think those books are a good place to start. A long time ago, I read the advice that when you wanted to learn about a new subject, you should start by reading children's books on the topic. I consider these to the be that equivalent. I don't like the titles, but that wouldn't stop me from reading it if I thought it would help.

Agreed, on all you write. :)

I was barely lamenting the idea to use such a work as a basis of a high school course. As supplements, or starting points - no problem at all.

[TravelingChris]

I used the Idiot's Guide to AMerican Government and Economics for Dummies this year in a class I taught in a co-op for high schoolers. Why did I chose the books- because they were the best, most clear and especially in the case of economics, most rigorous books I could find for teaching the classes. There was nothing dumbed down in the curriculum. What there was were all kinds of formatting points that made the material easier to learn. I compared the books to what I learned in a good class in high school and found it superior. Yes, some kids have an easy time with slogging through page after page of small print with barely any indications of what the most important points are and they naturally are able to pick those out. Most can't. Most nod off. My kids actually remembered most of the material and many of them wer astounded about how interesting this class was. Why? Because they were used to dry textbooks.

[Love2Smile]

SWB recommends the Government variety of one these...can't think of which one at the moment.

 

She's a college professor and I figure if she feels it's okay...why not? :001_smile:

 

If you feel it necessary to have a "reputable" book as your main reference (or even just for show), then do so, but don't dismiss these titles because of...ummm...the title...kwim?

 

They are FULL of excellent, precise information. No fluffy stuff.

 

I will be looking at the Government one for next year.

She recommends the "Idiots Guide to Government" I figure if she recommends it, it's worth checking out, which we will do!

[Love2Smile]

I used the Idiot's Guide to AMerican Government and Economics for Dummies this year in a class I taught in a co-op for high schoolers. Why did I chose the books- because they were the best, most clear and especially in the case of economics, most rigorous books I could find for teaching the classes. There was nothing dumbed down in the curriculum. What there was were all kinds of formatting points that made the material easier to learn. I compared the books to what I learned in a good class in high school and found it superior. Yes, some kids have an easy time with slogging through page after page of small print with barely any indications of what the most important points are and they naturally are able to pick those out. Most can't. Most nod off. My kids actually remembered most of the material and many of them wer astounded about how interesting this class was. Why? Because they were used to dry textbooks.

Great review! Thanks!

[Laurie in CA]

SWB recommends "The Complete Idiot's Guide to American Government" or Holt's American Government as a supplement to the great-books...The Declaration of Independence, The Constitution, The Federalist, "On American Taxation", "The Rights of Man", and "Democracy in America".

[TravelingChris]

Oh, I should add that I did additional assignments to the books. In American Government, they read the Constitution and did a long worksheet on it. They also did a chart on a department of the government, a report on a local or state government issue, tracked a bill through Congress, found how many lobbyists their family supports, and did a lengthy paper on a major bill, major court case, or major program. In Economics, I had them find news articles about the economy or financial news and we would discuss these (we did it with any current events of a governmental nature the first semester), continued tracking our stock and discussed what factors may have led to their stock going up or down, and read a book about a business scandal, business biography, business trend, or economics (many chose Freakanomics or Superfreakanomics). So I don't use these books alone but add to them.

[Nan in Mass]

Just for the record:

She doesn't just recommend the Idiot's Guide. She recommends an extensive list of foundation documents as the meat of the course, and she suggests reading parts of the Idiot's Guide as an overview before reading each document. That is different than just reading the Idiot's Guide.

-Nan (whose son did this, although he didn't read all the recommended documents)

[Teachin'Mine]

To me whether you use certain books has more to do with what your child's education is all about. Is it to impress someone, or for them to learn? If learning is the goal, then the title of books used doesn't matter. Knowledge is knowledge. Just my opinion.

[Love2Smile]

SWB recommends "The Complete Idiot's Guide to American Government" or Holt's American Government as a supplement to the great-books...The Declaration of Independence, The Constitution, The Federalist, "On American Taxation", "The Rights of Man", and "Democracy in America".

what are the "great books"?

[Laurie in CA]

The "Great Books" for government SWB recommended were The Declaration of Independence, The Federalist, the Constitution of the United States, "On American Taxation" (Burke), "The Rights of Man" (Paine), "Democracy in America (de Tocqueville). These are supplemented by "The Complete Idiot's Guide to American Government" or "Holt American Government".

 

This is only for American Government, not History or Literature, which would have another list entirely.:tongue_smilie: I think that having "The Well Trained Mind" book is the best way to see how to put it all together. I just got my copy last year and wish I would have purchased it years ago! It takes the mystery out of the study of "Great Books", along with a list of the "Great Books".

[Wildiris]

The English Grammar Workbook for Dummies covers it all & you don't need anything additional.

 

 

I wanted to take an online editing course for copy writing through UC Berkeley extension. English Grammar for Dummies - book and workbook were the required texts for the class.

[In The Great White North]

However, Konrad Paul Liessmann said it all and wrote it all; unfortunately, the anglophone market seems not to be interested in his short and brilliant analysis of what's wrong with the education today, and books of that "profile" - and the fact they're used so widely! - reflect that very nicely

 

Do you have a link?

[In The Great White North]

Out of principle I would not use - and if I used, I would most certainly not formally enlist them along the other works I used! - books entitled "The Idiot's Guide to X", "X for Dummies", etc.

 

:iagree: Yep, I'm judging a book by its cover!

 

What's the first thing I do when reading an essay? I turn the last page to see the cited works. If amongst those I notice work in the rank of Wikipedia (or even too general works which do have a clear author - you cannot write an assignment with quotes from your typical general encyclopaedia, you need to use resources "from the field"), I'm tempted to stop reading the whole essay, no matter how brilliant in the end it might be. :)

When I consult a professional work, what's the first thing I do? I skim through list of cited and recommended works, the index of frequent and relevant terms used, and I check who wrote the recension more than what's written in the recension. Those, when combined, usually give a pretty decent light not only on what's written in the work, but on the ideological background of the work as well.

 

When I want to see what some course teaches, what do I do? I look for a detailed syllabus with bibliography (both primary and secondary, elective), and more often than not, I look into the credentials of the person who teaches it and who approved the course.

 

I understand what you're saying but you will have a hard time applying this standard to most textbooks. I just glanced through Bailey's The American Pagaent, Zumdahl's Chemistry and Foerster's Calculus, both highly respected, and couldn't find a bibliography of sources in any of them.

[Ester Maria]

Do you have a link?

Theorie der Unbildung: Die Irrtümer der Wissensgesellschaft

I highly recommend it, an excellent reflection on today's education.

I understand what you're saying but you will have a hard time applying this standard to most textbooks. I just glanced through Bailey's The American Pagaent, Zumdahl's Chemistry and Foerster's Calculus, both highly respected, and couldn't find a bibliography of sources in any of them.

Actually, it's not that critical for specific textbooks on a general theme (elaborated bibliographies are usually found only in professional works with a more narrow thesis), but I was speaking for example if you were going to judge the quality of a random course - you would probably check the syllabus to see what works are being used.

[In The Great White North]

Do you have a link?

Theorie der Unbildung: Die Irrtümer der Wissensgesellschaft

I highly recommend it, an excellent reflection on today's education.

 

Thanks. I was hoping for an on-line article. I'll have to look for this next time I'm in Germany - shipping would be more than the book!

[Bostonian]

I'm an afterschooler and will never need to report what texts I am using. Questions for parents whose kids use "Dummies" or "Idiots" guides -- did your children ever get offended by the titles? Or did they laugh them off? If my children learn from book X, it ultimately does not matter what the book is called. (But they won't learn from books they refuse to read, obviously.) I have bought "Dummies" books for myself in the past but have drawn the line at "Idiot".

[Chris in PA]

Oh, I should add that I did additional assignments to the books. In American Government, they read the Constitution and did a long worksheet on it. They also did a chart on a department of the government, a report on a local or state government issue, tracked a bill through Congress, found how many lobbyists their family supports, and did a lengthy paper on a major bill, major court case, or major program. In Economics, I had them find news articles about the economy or financial news and we would discuss these (we did it with any current events of a governmental nature the first semester), continued tracking our stock and discussed what factors may have led to their stock going up or down, and read a book about a business scandal, business biography, business trend, or economics (many chose Freakanomics or Superfreakanomics). So I don't use these books alone but add to them.

 

Chris,

Can I ask a couple of questions? Did you make up the Constitution worksheet or find it on the internet? For the paper you required on a major bill, court case, or program, what major points did you want to see them cover in the paper? I am designing a government class for my dd and your ideas sound awesome.

 

Thanks