Hi! My name is fairfarmhand, and my kid's a liar....

[fairfarmhand]

I am really counting on you more experienced mom's to solve this problem for me. Please don't let me down.

 

How in the world do you deal with lying kids? Half the time I don't know whether to believe her or not. I seriously cannot trust her. This makes me so nervous because she is 12....figured she would have outgrown the lying phase.

 

Can I start a club?

[RegGuheert]

I feel for you. Lying is probably the least-tolerated behavior around here and we have always come down very hard on it, even at a very young age.

 

I've previously tagged discussions about lying and have added that tag to this thread. Just click on the tag below to find many good discussions on this subject.

 

Good luck!

[fairfarmhand]

What makes me crazy is that I feel the situation is turning me into a suspicious nosy mother...and I hate feeling/acting like that. But otherwise, she attempts to get away with all kinds of crazy stuff.

[Maddysmom26]

I have always told my daughter what my parents always told us.. Never Lie, because you will be in more trouble then if you actually told the truth. She actually had a few little spells of lying but then would remember what I said and would always tell me the truth within a few minutes after the lie and she would add.. I just cant lie to you mom.. ;) ... I just explained that maybe what she did was wrong or not right ( and we would deal with that) but if she lied about it , it would be so much worse. So just tell the truth!

 

Im sure every child is different.

 

But it always worked for us and seems to be working for mine.

[RegGuheert]

 

Half the time I don't know whether to believe her or not. I seriously cannot trust her.

One thing I've always stressed with my children is that trust is earned. While it is VERY easy to lose someone's trust by lying to them, it is VERY, VERY difficult to ever regain it. Sometimes it is impossible.

[OhM]

DD, dh and I had a *serious discussion* when she was around your dd's age. We explained how her habit of hiding things from us, misrepresenting the truth, and, yes, flat-out lying to us was going to impact her freedom when she became 15, 16, 17... and should realistically be expecting more freedom. We also made it clear that *everything* was in question after she had been caught lying about *anything*.

 

Being caught in a lie resulted in natural consequences of needing to be around us, or always in the presence of an adult who would monitor and verity her behavior (not "tomato-staking" per se, but very similar) and reinforcement of the "this will continue until you prove yourself trustworthy" speech.

 

I can't say it immediately cured her, but we did notice a change in her effort, and now at 15 I feel very confident that she's open with us about who she is and what she's up to ;) without us having to be constantly looking over her shoulder.

 

ETA: I should add that at 13-14 she got much worse - hiding the nature of some of her relationships and a dabble in cutting - so we went through family counseling, which I think helped her to be more honest with herself as well as with us.

[Mejane]

Your daughter needs to understand that lying and trust go hand in hand. Kids need concrete reasons to do or not do things. My daughter used to fib. She thought it was a game to see what she could get away with. I always told her that as she grew older she would want more freedom, but wouldn't get it if I couldn't trust her. If I caught her in a fib, she lost the next privilege that involved trust - going to a friend's or being on the computer for example. It put a more practical spin on why not to lie than just saying that it was wrong. Twelve is not too young to get this concept as that's an age when kids begin to want more independence.

 

I never tried it, but tomato-staking might be worth a try - "If I can't trust you, you have to be where I can watch you all the time." She'll tire of that quickly enough.

 

(See OhM and I were posting the same thing at the same time. :))

[TXMomof4]

I've really stressed to my oldest dd that there are real, tangible consequences related to a loss of trust.

 

She lied about something silly last week. We've just begun leaving her at home when I go to the grocery store, to get gas etc., and now she can't do that. An untrustworthy person is just that. If I can't trust her to tell me the truth about silly things, why on earth would I trust her to stay home alone.

 

She is really looking forward to babysitting in a few years and we've discussed that you begin building trusting relationships NOW so that people will feel comfortable trusting you with their child later.

 

We have a TV in the basement that they are allowed to watch sometimes. Unless you're going to lie to me, then you lose that. How do I know that she is being trustworthy with her tv viewing if she isn't trustworthy about little things.

 

This is something that makes me psycho. My oldest is the only one who has persisted in telling lies when she KNOWS she will be sorry in the long run. Middle dd starts bawling as soon as the words are out of her mouth - she's pretty easy to read. :tongue_smilie:

[justamouse]

I so feel and understand your pain. My first one lied like others breathe. Thankfully he's the only one like that but it taught me so much about parenting.

 

Why does she feel she has to lie? She isn't lying for no reason-does she think the rules are too strict? Is she doing it to stroke her ego (the bigger fish stories)?

 

Are you making it hard to come to you with the truth? That one hurts, I know, but you need to analyze your own reactions when she does come to you with something wrong-or is sharing something with you. If it's a reaction of constant disapproval, they will lie. If she feels she can never gain your approval or praise, they have nothing to lose and lie. If she all she feels from you is shame, she won't tell you the truth.

 

So, first check your responses (not here ;)) and make sure you're doing everything possible to make yourself available and a safe person to tell things to. When she tells you a fault, a problem, something she did wrong, no flying off the handle. Even if you have to walk away for 30 minutes. Tell her you're glad she told you, thank her for telling the truth and go pull weeds till you calm down. :D Then, if it is something that needs a consequence, talk to her about it. Go through what she should have done, and come up with a consequence together. Make sure it's fair-sometimes they'll overburden themselves out of guilt.

 

Explain to her how she is building up your trust so that later in her life she will be given the responsibilities of doing things on her own. If you can't trust her, she will have a short leash or no leash at all and that will make her life (and yours) miserable. You *so* don't want that.

 

Be open to therapy if it's something you can't handle. If she can't open up to you, she needs to to somebody, and a therapist is a great sounding board for that age. 12 is a crazy age. Hormonal, seeking identities, trying different ones on, hormonal hormonal hormonal. They're bodies are telling them one thing and they want freedoms we know they're not ready for.

 

Hang in there. I remember that 12, 13 were stressful (and my daughter never did anything more wrong than cop the occasional attitude, it was my oldest son that broke me in) but by 14 the tempest seemed to calm. Or they gained the maturity to self regulate.

 

:grouphug::grouphug:

[fairfarmhand]

typically, I tell her not to do something... and she does it anyway. Then she'll lie about it. She does not like some of the rules around here. She does try to explain her point of view on the rules. Which I am ok with. But she wants to argue about them, the whole discussion goes south and she is still unhappy when she doesn't get her way; many times does what she wants anyway, and just lies about it.

[StephanieZ]

What consequences are you applying so far? Can you give us a couple recent examples of what she's lying about, how you handled it, and how that worked out?

 

To what purpose is she lying (to avoid trouble, to avoid work, to hurt someone else). . .

 

I agree that 12 is past the typical lying phase in my family. My kids lying tended to peak around age 7-9, although my 10yods still lies about stupid things (like, yes, I brushed my teeth) just b/c he wants to avoid little bits of work. . . (Oddly, he doesn't lie about big stuff at all. . . I guess I came down effectively on those ones early on. . . and he has realized I don't punish the littler ones harshly enough. Gotta work on that. . .)

[justamouse]

typically, I tell her not to do something... and she does it anyway. Then she'll lie about it. She does not like some of the rules around here. She does try to explain her point of view on the rules. Which I am ok with. But she wants to argue about them, the whole discussion goes south and she is still unhappy when she doesn't get her way; many times does what she wants anyway, and just lies about it.

 

 

It's that first one, they're doozies.

 

Another hard thing to hear-ARE the rules too hard? Mine were. All out of love and keeping him safe, but he needed more rope and I never gave it so he lied. Granted, that wasn't the mature way for him to handle it, but you can't expect maturity from a 12 yo, when adults do the same thing. I pressed this kid down so hard (with very reasonable rules, I thought. But I was a fundamentalist back then and had expectations that were way too high.) he just exploded and I lost him. I totally lost him. It was painful. I learned my lesson and am repairing that relationship. My relationship with my daughter is 180 degrees different. I know what matters now, and shaved/dyed hair is not a hill to die on, iykwim.

 

Can you ease up a bit as an experiment and see how she handles it?

[susankenny]

Well, I don't have much advice really. The only thing I know is that it's important not to let your child's lying become the main indentifying characteristic of your child from your POV. James Dobson stressed this in a Focus on the Family talk, to never call your child a "liar" or constantly reiterate how much you don't trust them, etc. It can do a lot of damage. Yes your child is 12 & should know better for sure. I don't argue that. But just make sure your reaction isn't so strong that your child begins to believe that this is who they are, a liar. I hope that makes sense!

 

Susan

[justamouse]

Well, I don't have much advice really. The only thing I know is that it's important not to let your child's lying become the main indentifying characteristic of your child from your POV. James Dobson stressed this in a Focus on the Family talk, to never call your child a "liar" or constantly reiterate how much you don't trust them, etc. It can do a lot of damage. Yes your child is 12 & should know better for sure. I don't argue that. But just make sure your reaction isn't so strong that your child begins to believe that this is who they are, a liar. I hope that makes sense!

 

Susan

 

 

I'm not into Dobson at all, but I remember coming across that one and thought it was fantastic.

[Haiku]

I have one child who was a terrible, blatant liar. Even when it was extremely obvious that she was lying, she stuck to her story. We called it "crazy lying." We were very up front with her about the fact that lying meant that we couldn't trust her, and since we couldn't trust her, we had to restrict her activities. It took her several years to make the connection between her behavior and her lifestyle, but when she finally did, her lying stopped pretty much completely. (She's 15 now.) I can now tell when she'd padding the truth or only telling me what I want to hear, and I just remind her that her past behavior has left me suspicious of her and that I am more inclined to believe my gut feeling than her suspicious story.

 

One thing we do NOT do is punish more heavily when we find out a child has lied because, in my experience, that teaches a child that it's better to continue the lie than to come clean. If my kids decide to be honest with me, I don't want them punished for that.

 

Tara

[susankenny]

I'm not into Dobson at all, but I remember coming across that one and thought it was fantastic.

 

Honestly, I'm not into Dobson either. But I listen to Christian radio, and I hear his Focus on the Family spots all of the time. This particular one spoke to me as a parent & reminded me that my children yearn for acceptance and approval from me. Even when they are flawed, struggling, lying, and damaged - I can meet them with grace. Without it, they can grow up to believe false things about who they truly are in Christ.

 

Susan

[Haiku]

to never call your child a "liar" or constantly reiterate how much you don't trust them, etc.

 

I agree that we shouldn't call our children names or harp on them all the time, and I also acknowledge that I haven't heard what Dobson has to say about this, but I will say that I don't think there is a thing in the world wrong with telling a child straight up that their lying causes you to mistrust them.

 

Tara

[susankenny]

I agree that we shouldn't call our children names or harp on them all the time, and I also acknowledge that I haven't heard what Dobson has to say about this, but I will say that I don't think there is a thing in the world wrong with telling a child straight up that their lying causes you to mistrust them.

 

Tara

 

Yes, of course I agree with you. I hope I didn't come across as otherwise. I discipline my children all of the time, and we have clear standards of right and wrong. I wasn't trying to insinuate that the OP is calling her children names or making her daughter feel awful about herself. It's simply information that resonated with me & I felt it was worth sharing here. Either it will resonate with her too or it won't. It's simply my 2cents, (and it's hardly worth that:))

[Irene Lynn]

I appreciate this post. I was the child who lied easily in my family. It is certainly true that lying breaks trust , but sometimes the trust has already been broken and that contributes to the choice to lie. I think that it is hard for parents to realize that sometimes they are the ones that break that trust. (I am not speaking to the OP, but just commenting on this topic. :) ) My earliest memory, 18 mo old, involved not being heard. My trust in believing that my parents would listen to me was broken before I could even speak well! Of course they had no idea and it wasn't on purpose, but they just didn't believe that children really had minds of their own. They thought we were pretty much blank slates upon which to write. They also had a LOT of rules and were fundamentalists, too. I couldn't seem to obey all the rules that surrounded me, so I quit trying. Lying did afford me a better chance of escaping some punishment, especially as I improved my technique through the years.

 

Once I was grown I realized that I preferred to deal with reality more than fiction, because only when facing reality can progress be made. I was no longer afraid.

 

Lying is a complicated thing. Sometimes it is done by a very creative child that has trouble distinguishing between their imaginitive world and reality or at least they desire their imaginary world enough to try to make it reality. OR It can be done out of fear/self preservation. OR It can be done out of pride. Assessing the root cause is an important step to figuring out how to deal with it.

[OhM]

(See OhM and I were posting the same thing at the same time. :))

 

Great minds, you know. :D

[OhM]

Another hard thing to hear-ARE the rules too hard? Mine were.

 

Similar situation here. An important part of helping dd through this was learning to "give" a little on certain negotiable items. It did wonders of helping us to loosen up a bit, and helping her to know that we really were hearing her viewpoint.

 

I heard SWB speak at a conference a few years back, and she talked about some ground rules her mom had for letting her (as a young teen, I believe) state her objection to a rule with a signal that told her that "discussion" had gone too far into "arguing". I wish I could remember the details - maybe someone else does?

[IsabelC]

There's a slight problem with the traditional model of punish for misbehavior, then punish extra it they lied about it. You're always left with the third option of lying and getting away with it, resulting in no punishment at all. For some kids, the third option is going to be so attractive that they take it. Unless you are omniscient, of course!

 

I would suggest teaching her about why it is preferable to be as truthful as possible, but also endeavoring not to catch her lying so often. I mean, how are you getting into a situation where she does something forbidden and then says she didn't? Do you ask her whether she did it? Is the lie her 'default response' as soon as you find out? Could you bypass the whole lying issue by addressing the triggering issues differently? Eg avoid asking "who did x?", "did you do x?" or "why did you do x?" and go straight onto "I see that you have done x when I told you not to. What do you think the consequence will be?" and just decline to talk about whether she did it or not (assuming, of course, that you are sure of the facts).

 

And Irene Lynn, I love your post. It is really important to try and establish the root causes. If all you do is punish lying when you catch them at it, you are just teaching them not to get caught.

[fairfarmhand]

Well, this is a child who values her independence, so typically for lying that independence is curtailed since we cannot trust her.

 

The kind of things she lies about.....

 

Crazy stuff:

she and her sister are in a room together; I hear sounds of bickering and before I can intervene, younger dd is crying and yelling. Little sis is laying in the floor with a welt on her arm and when I ask, "anyone want to tell me what happened?" I get crazy stuff like "we were just talking and then she fell in the floor crying. No I didn't even touch her."

 

Or alot of the time it happens like this:

A friend is coming over and before the child arrives I ask her to specifically not play in a certain way because it is disruptive, or makes a mess that didn't get cleaned up properly last time, or I am just not in the mood to deal with it. So she goes into another room with the door shut and I find "evidence" all over the place later.

 

So as of now, the rule is no doors shut when a friend is over. Most of her lying is centered around doing things with a friend. I think she likes to show off to her friends since she doesn't do most of this crazy stuff when at home with her sisters.

 

How does one determine objectively that the rules are too harsh? I grew up in an extremely strict perfectionistic home so to me, my rules are pretty lax. Really our rules are not any more strict than any of our friends who have kids our children's ages.

[IsabelC]

How does one determine objectively that the rules are too harsh?

 

Maybe talk to her and ask her why she has a problem with a particular rule. But if you honestly feel the rules are reasonable, they probably are. My mental guideline is that their NEEDS outweigh my WANTS, but their WANTS only have to be accommodated if I feel it's reasonable. So once I work out whether something is a want or a need, it's easy to decide. And they can be separated out as well (eg if my child is hungry and asks for cake, she needs to be fed, but she doesn't need cake, you get the picture ;))

[Laurie4b]

There are ways to tell when someone is lying. There is a book called You Say More Than You Think by Janine Driver. She is also featured in several videos on U tube. It helps when you at least have a good idea of when a child is lying and when not.

[Laurie4b]

There's a slight problem with the traditional model of punish for misbehavior, then punish extra it they lied about it. You're always left with the third option of lying and getting away with it, resulting in no punishment at all. For some kids, the third option is going to be so attractive that they take it. .

 

Yes. This is why slot machines are so popular. Lying and not getting caught is the same way--big enough payment often enough to keep rewarding the lying.