If your child is fluent in a foreign language,

[plansrme]

can you share how she got there? Having a parent who speaks the language doesn't count!

 

Thanks,

Terri

[KuniMom]

My children are semi-fluent in another language, probably going to be completely fluent in the next year or two. I think that you need to have them tutored by a native speaker if financially possible. Also, put them in activities where that language is spoken. I know there are classes in America for Japanese and Korean children that are all in Japanese or Korean. Spanish would be easier, since it's becoming a more common language in America. What language are you wanting your kids to be fluent in?

 

can you share how she got there? Having a parent who speaks the language doesn't count!

 

Thanks,

Terri

[plansrme]

What language are you wanting your kids to be fluent in?

 

Mandarin Chinese. They have had a native speaker tutor for 2+ years now. They meet with her once a week, all year long. Many Chinese friends have suggested the local Chinese school, but it just does not work for us from a scheduling standpoint.

 

My younger daughter's swim coach is Malaysian/ethnic Chinese--perhaps I could ask him to yell at her in Chinese. ;) She would at least fluently be able to say, "Straighten those knees! Arms by your ears!"

 

Terri

[Mabelen]

Other than language immersion school, you need a combination of things.

 

Language lessons with a native or near native speaker, I would recommend a minimum of 3 times a week. Language camp or regular study visits to a country where the language is spoken. Computer games and movies/music etc in the language. Leveled books. Conversation exchange. Penpals.

[Mabelen]

Mandarin Chinese. They have had a native speaker tutor for 2+ years now. They meet with her once a week, all year long. Many Chinese friends have suggested the local Chinese school, but it just does not work for us from a scheduling standpoint.

 

My younger daughter's swim coach is Malaysian/ethnic Chinese--perhaps I could ask him to yell at her in Chinese. ;) She would at least fluently be able to say, "Straighten those knees! Arms by your ears!"

 

Terri

 

I personally would be cautious using the local Chinese school in your case. The kids who go there have been for the most part brought up in Chinese speaking families and have a very good passive knowledge of the language. My oldest has a friend whose parents are Chinese (one Mandarin speaker, the other Cantonese speaker so more English is spoken at home than Chinese) and she floundered there because she didn't have the solid foundation her classmates had. If your child is gifted in languages he or she might do well with the challenge, otherwise it might be too much pressure.

[Brindee]

My oldest ended up going to a Christian Boarding school his Junior and Senior year. It ended up being a GREAT move, and awesome opportunities that honestly changed the course of his life! There were many native Spanish speakers, and though the school's Spanish teacher left soon after school started, and they had no Spanish class, he was around those friends enough that he started picking up on some of their words and phrases. He is very linguistically minded, and decided he really liked the language and wanted to learn it well. He would write down words and phrases, look things up in his Spanish-English Dictionary, and kept a notebook with all that he was learning. He'd read through it a lot, and add more things as he went along. While other kids were out goofing around, he was sitting with his notebook and S-E Dict. learning more. He spent as much time with the kids as he could, and, since he is on FaceBook, he cultivated friends there that speak Spanish. He would practice talking to them in Spanish and they would help as well. He began to be able to read munus and converse quite coherently in Spanish. He was also able to read a story written in Spanish, and as he read he'd translate it to English. He does that very smoothly now.

 

He is a College Freshman this year, majoring in Spanish. He loves it! He tested out of first year college Spanish, so is doing 2nd year Spanish. He says it's not that hard, but he likes it, since he is learning the grammar way better, which he feels is importan. tHe's minoring in Education so he can teach/translate/etc. Next year he wants to go to a Christian University in Mexico. Some of the friends he made at the higschool are now going to that school, and he is working toward that.

 

Neither dh nor I speak Spanish, so we had nothing to do with him learning the language---well, except for having him in the first place! ;)

 

So, I'm thinking immersion is a GREAT way for them to learn. Being involved as much as possible with people that speak the language, and also putting forth the effort to hang on to what they're learning by studying it a lot. It's owrth the effort, I think! I'm soooo glad he ended up with that opportunity and took advantage of it!

[Laura Corin]

I personally would be cautious using the local Chinese school in your case. The kids who go there have been for the most part brought up in Chinese speaking families and have a very good passive knowledge of the language.

 

When my boys went to Chinese school for a year the non-Chinese students all dropped out pretty fast, apart from my boys (four years in China) and one other girl who had grown up in Hong Kong and had Mandarin lessons her whole life. The classes were mostly about learning to write the characters - it was assumed that the pupils already knew the spoken words.

 

Laura

[plansrme]

I personally would be cautious using the local Chinese school in your case. The kids who go there have been for the most part brought up in Chinese speaking families and have a very good passive knowledge of the language. My oldest has a friend whose parents are Chinese (one Mandarin speaker, the other Cantonese speaker so more English is spoken at home than Chinese) and she floundered there because she didn't have the solid foundation her classmates had. If your child is gifted in languages he or she might do well with the challenge, otherwise it might be too much pressure.

 

This is exactly what I have told my Chinese friends, but they assure me that there are now, by popular demand, classes for kids who do not speak Chinese at home.

 

Terri

[Joan in GE]

Hi Terri,

 

My children are pretty fluent in French, but since we live in a French speaking part of Switzerland, I didn't think that was what you meant either..so I'll talk about German, where they are not really fluent but well on the road to fluency...

 

I think there should be something of each of these four factors to varying degrees...

 

1. Compelling personal reason/desire/determination - something that lights the fire of desire...

 

for my daughter, a very good friend married a German and moved to Germany. She desires intensely to visit this person and thinks she needs to speak German to be able to do so. So even though she is only in 6th grade, she attacks German with gusto and happiness and is on her way to fluency(she started in 4th grade before her friend moved). She talks to me in German for fun...

 

for my son, the possibility that he will need to know German for a job here (since it is one of the official languages) (combined with the great teacher factor) have gotten him moving...

 

Both of these have a European context, but there are ways to have that desire in the US...it could be a missionary desire, travel desire, Peace Corps type of desire, Mabelen mentioned pen pals, native speakers, and immersion experiences...

 

Even temporary immersion situations are helpful. High school students here are typically sent to England or Germany for a few weeks or a few months to live in a family.

 

Sometimes I meet someone who speaks English quite well and ask them where they learned...they say school and 2 months in England, or some other short duration...

 

I think that over here, people feel that their future depends upon learning these other languages...It's not just that they have done the language, but done it well enough to pass the final school exam (bacc, matu, O/A levels, etc)..

 

2. Great teacher / program -

 

Not all programs are equivalent. While the Learnables might be a good grade school introduction, they would not be sufficient for high school. I know one poster used RS for high school, and maybe I was using it wrongly, but for us it was better for grade school or jr. high level...

 

The program should require output that is measurable often...so they get lots of feedback...the more passive the program, the less engaged they are...

 

Nor are all teachers equivalent....and you might want to know what kind of philosophy they are teaching as well...a local Chinese teacher told her one student to "hide Buddha in her heart", secretly, not tell anyone about it...

 

Cleo mentioned that European foreign language programs are better...but the ones I have/have seen tend to need a teacher that speaks the language. Cleo can you suggest any that are made for self-directed learning?....maybe that is something to check out online via Great Britain?

 

3. Time - both weekly (as in 4 - 5 days/wk + homework) and yearly (as in start before high school)...and as much extra practice as possible in the form of library of easy books (in different subjects and audio books), games in the language, educational videos, etc.

 

In Jr. Hi here, my daughter's friend in 7th grade has 5 classes of French (maternal), 4 classes of German (2nd language), 2 classes of English (3rd) and 3 classes of Latin (4th) (The Latin is for students in the Latin stream. Lots are not taking Latin. But the German and English are mandatory.) They started learning German in 3rd grade.

 

I think if a student was immersed in a foreign high school, they would probably be able to be fluent in those few years. But that is not realistic for most of us, so either fluency will take longer than the 4 years by starting before high school or continuing after high school.

 

And as much time with supplemental CD's in the car, while jogging, etc (not your official program but a secondary program - eg Pimsleur is good as a secondary program)

 

4. Parental enthusiasm....they catch ours (while this is not so important at university level, it really helps for homeschool)...learn with them...even if you learn more slowly, they get pleased with themself when they can speak better than I can... or if you are not learning it, your excitement over their progress (presuming a good relationship on other fronts) helps...

 

Just a few ideas,

Joan

Edited April 13, 2010 by Joan in Geneva

[C_l_e_0..Q_c]

Sometimes I meet someone who speaks English quite well and ask them where they learned...they say school and 2 months in England, or some other short duration......

<skip>

Cleo mentioned that European foreign language programs are better...but the ones I have/have seen tend to need a teacher that speaks the language. Cleo can you suggest any that are made for self-directed learning?....maybe that is something to check out online via Great Britain?

 

That's what's impressive with European languages. School, and a little immersion, and yes, people get to fluency. As for me, I reached Spanish fluency with just school, and being in contact with a Spanish girl at an English school (oh the irony!) for 3 weeks. Fluency was expected at my school, for English and Spanish. I just reached it faster (by a year!) because of 3 weeks of contact with that girl.

 

The European programs always expect a teacher that speaks the target language. They're easy to find in Europe. And homeschooling is a rare bird. AFAIK, there are none that are aimed to self-learners. And I honestly believe you can't reach any level of fluency without a native speaker somewhere along the line.

[Kareni]

Joan,

 

I enjoyed reading your thoughts. I do have one question. When you said the following:

 

...

In Jr. Hi here, my daughter's friend in 7th grade has 5 classes of French (maternal), 4 classes of German (2nd language), 2 classes of English (3rd) and 3 classes of Latin (4th) (The Latin is for students in the Latin stream. Lots are not taking Latin. But the German and English are mandatory.) They started learning German in 3rd grade.

 

Are you referring to weekly classes? So, the friend of your daughter has five French, four German, two English and three Latin classes per week?

 

Thank you for clarifying.

 

Regards,

Kareni

[Joan in GE]

So, the friend of your daughter has five French, four German, two English and three Latin classes per week?

 

Yes, that is per week. And it goes up in 8th.

 

Scroll down on this page for the basic obligatory course plan - you can probably understand it even though it is in French. Then according to whether you are in the Latin stream or the Science stream or some others, you have extra classes.

 

You will see that there is hardly any science (2 classes) and only 4 of math (in 7 & 8th grade) as an obligation! which only goes up slightly in 9th..

 

At the bottom you see "cours a option" for the Latin, science, etc streams - 3 classes which are on another page. So for the friend - her "option" is Latin - working up to 5 classes in 9th grade.

 

I have come to the conclusion that here in Geneva, they are weak in Science and Math...I do not know the course plans for other cantons or countries...but it is interesting...

 

Cleo, if you find any good self-directed European level programs, please let me know...

 

Joan

[Kareni]

Thanks for sharing that additional information, Joan. It is interesting indeed to see how things are done in other countries. I see what you mean about the plan (in general) being light in the sciences; however, given that this is only through the 9th year, I can imagine that for those who pursue a science track that the level of science will increase in the next few years. (It always boils down to only so many hours in the day!)

 

Regards,

Kareni

[Brindee]

In Jr. Hi here, my daughter's friend in 7th grade has 5 classes of French (maternal), 4 classes of German (2nd language), 2 classes of English (3rd) and 3 classes of Latin (4th) (The Latin is for students in the Latin stream. Lots are not taking Latin. But the German and English are mandatory.) They started learning German in 3rd grade.

Wow, I wish we even did HALF that in the US! I would've loved to have my children learn another language or 2 or 3! My oldest did some French, and more German, and now is close to fluent in Spanish. My younger two haven't, not because I didn't want them to, but because I don't know another language, and we had a hard time sticking with it! We attempted a few times, but without support, it fell through, sad to say.

 

Anyway, I will look up Pimsleur and see what it looks like...

 

Thankyou so much for your thoughts, enjoyed reading them!

[Laura Corin]

Wow, I wish we even did HALF that in the US! I would've loved to have my children learn another language or 2 or 3!

 

But I learned three languages at school: French to fair fluency, Latin to a level where I could read original texts and a smattering of Spanish. Calvin will be studying Latin and French at high school level when he goes to school in the autumn, in addition to private classes in Mandarin. He also has the opportunity to pick up Italian when he is sixteen, if he wishes.

 

Laura

[Brindee]

But I learned three languages at school: French to fair fluency, Latin to a level where I could read original texts and a smattering of Spanish. Calvin will be studying Latin and French at high school level when he goes to school in the autumn, in addition to private classes in Mandarin. He also has the opportunity to pick up Italian when he is sixteen, if he wishes.

 

Laura

But none of the schools I went to offered languages. I would've taken them then if they had! You were blessed!

[plansrme]

Thanks, everyone, for your thoughts.

 

Based on the input so far, I will step up their between-lesson exposure and stick with my initial plan, which was to send them to China for a semester or so down the road for immersion.

 

It is encouraging to hear your experiences.

 

Terri

[Laura Corin]

But none of the schools I went to offered languages. I would've taken them then if they had! You were blessed!

 

I believe that a foreign language is compulsory up to age 14 in the UK. I wish it were compulsory to 16 at least.

 

Laura

[Joan in GE]

I see what you mean about the plan (in general) being light in the sciences; however, given that this is only through the 9th year, I can imagine that for those who pursue a science track that the level of science will increase in the next few years. (It always boils down to only so many hours in the day!)

 

This is true, but if you would see that they do almost no science in grade school either, you would say that the general Genevan populace has hardly any science understanding....this might be why there is less do it yourself mentality...

 

Brindee, you probably did more science and math than they are doing...

 

Science fairs in schools are non existant...

 

Joan

[C_l_e_0..Q_c]

From what I can see from France by using CNED, they expect 6 years of one foreign language (living language 1), 4 of another one (living language 2), and there's an option of 2 years of a third language (the third language may be Latin, but in this case, they expect 5 years of it, not 2)

[jld]

Dh went through the French system. He did 7+ years of English in jr. high and high school, and continued in college, and could hardly say a thing when he moved to Chicago at 22, even after having spent a year in England during university. He also did 3 years each of German and Latin in 7th - 9th grades, then dropped them (he was in the math/physics track in high school, and apparently didn't absolutely need the languages).

 

I know many French people who only speak French, and some English. I'm always a little hesitant in assuming that Europeans have the foreign language fluency we Americans think they have. I think sometimes we give them a little too much credit . . .

 

Just sayin'.

[Joan in GE]

I know many French people who only speak French, and some English. I'm always a little hesitant in assuming that Europeans have the foreign language fluency we Americans think they have. I think sometimes we give them a little too much credit . . .

 

I do think some people have more giftedness for language learning (eg Cleo) so three weeks of a native speaker is enough and others need more time. How is your husband's English now?

 

Yes, I've been thinking about this more because I started thinking about Italy and there it is hard to find an English or French speaker. I'm not sure what foreign languages they tend to learn in school...

 

In a very general way, it seems like they speak more languages in the North and fewer in the South...In Sweden almost everyone speaks English well, gas station attendants, waiters, etc. The Germans generally speak several languages well. The Dutch seem to be very gifted with language abilities - again so many people speak English...The French are getting better about English.

 

It used to be that even if they knew English they did not speak it...their English could be better than my French but they wouldn't speak because they were shy or not wanting to speak with a French accent or whatever...We Americans tend to try to say whatever we know...or is it just me? But it seems that there are more and more who do want to practice their English.

 

The Swiss Germans seem to speak more languages than the French Swiss - but all these are generalizations.

 

But in some ways it is hard to measure. I tend to ask if someone speaks English or French. But they can be learning German, Spanish, Italian, etc. Eg. the Eastern countries tend to learn German due to the German tourists and business connections so we had a lot of trouble communicating there...

 

Jld, you are certainly right that not everyone is fluent in several languages, especially people who have less education, store clerks, etc.

 

What could have been misleading about the schedule I posted is that here in Switzerland, lots of students go into apprenticeships at the 10th grade level and some stop foreign languages all together. I was not really thinking about that when I posted as my children are dealing with university entrance and competing with those people who do the end of high school exams where they have oral exams in three languages (French, German and English or Italian)...so I tend not to think much about the other kids:sad: or those repairmen I have to argue with in French.

 

Joan

[Brindee]

Dh went through the French system. He did 7+ years of English in jr. high and high school, and continued in college, and could hardly say a thing when he moved to Chicago at 22, even after having spent a year in England during university. He also did 3 years each of German and Latin in 7th - 9th grades, then dropped them (he was in the math/physics track in high school, and apparently didn't absolutely need the languages).

 

I know many French people who only speak French, and some English. I'm always a little hesitant in assuming that Europeans have the foreign language fluency we Americans think they have. I think sometimes we give them a little too much credit . . .

 

Just sayin'.

Thankyou!!! I did not have any notion of what they did in European countries, though I knew many learned English for sure. What I was basing my thoughts on is what I've read here on this board.

 

I got the idea that Europeans take many, many foreign languages and speak them fluently, while we Americans only know one, and if we learn another, we certainly don't know it fluently, as they do! That's just how it sounded that people think, so I'm thinking I wished I lived in a European country, because I really wish I would've learned at least 1 or 2 other languages....................and speak them fluently!!! :D

 

(btw Joan, I didn't get that feeling from what you've posted...)

[Laura Corin]

I got the idea that Europeans take many, many foreign languages and speak them fluently, while we Americans only know one, and if we learn another, we certainly don't know it fluently, as they do!

 

From the people I've met and the stories I've heard, British and French schools don't seem to do a good job, nor Belgian. The Netherlands and the Scandinavian countries seem to do very well. I'm not sure about elsewhere: I didn't find many English speakers in Italy, Spain or Portugal, but quite a lot of French speakers in Portugal.

 

Laura

[jld]

I didn't mean to challenge the idea that Europeans have more experience or need in learning languages than Americans, just that I don't think Americans should feel inferior in any way. Americans can learn languages, too, when and if they need/want to.

 

Most of the Europeans I've met that speak a foreign language, speak English. Some may speak another major language, say German if they're French, or French if they're German, but I honestly haven't met many Europeans that speak more than say 3 languages, including English.

 

And they aren't necessarily so good at them!

 

I remember working for a short period for a Swedish man who told me he spoke 5 languages. I spoke to him in Spanish, and quickly realized we had different definitions of "speaking a language", lol!

 

Northern Europeans often speak their national language (say Danish), plus English (of course!) and German. They may also speak French, say, but that could be a big maybe!

 

No one in dh's family speaks more than French and some English. Dh is fluent in English, but he's the only one. They don't even seem interested in improving their English, lol!

 

I just don't want Americans to feel inferior on this issue. We can learn other languages if we need/want to; we don't need to feel intimidated or inadequate. Sorry to not explain this more clearly before!

[jld]

One more thing: I understand Switzerland is a special case, with 3 official languages, plus all that English being spoken there, too! I am sure it's very cool to grow up there, with the possibility of learning so many languages all in one country! Very cool!:)

[C_l_e_0..Q_c]

I didn't mean to challenge the idea that Europeans have more experience or need in learning languages than Americans, just that I don't think Americans should feel inferior in any way. Americans can learn languages, too, when and if they need/want to.

 

But of course! Any human can, regardless of nationality!

 

Most of the Europeans I've met that speak a foreign language, speak English. Some may speak another major language, say German if they're French, or French if they're German, but I honestly haven't met many Europeans that speak more than say 3 languages, including English.

I would not have stated "including English" here. I've met many Europeans who have no interest whatsoever in learning English. Many will reject English in fact. It's not seen as a 'generic' language at all, and is no more important than French or Spanish or Italian. Wherever the person lives will influence their choice of second language. I would definitely not assume English in there.

 

And they aren't necessarily so good at them!

It's not because a school system does something well that all kids will learn. I would say North America tends to be stronger in math and sciences than Europe. That doesn't mean all children in North America can handle algebra on a regular basis.

 

I remember working for a short period for a Swedish man who told me he spoke 5 languages. I spoke to him in Spanish, and quickly realized we had different definitions of "speaking a language", lol!

 

That's why the European Standards for language learning were invented! At least now, we can 'quantify' speaking a language. It was a major pain in Europe when it came time to hire people. Some people could list 7 languages on their resumes because they could greet someone in those languages. Not quite 'speaking' ;-) So now, they have to list their level, and greeting someone does not even qualify as A1.

 

Northern Europeans often speak their national language (say Danish), plus English (of course!) and German. They may also speak French, say, but that could be a big maybe!

Again, don't assume English. Yes, it's one of the major languages, and many will know it. Just don't put it on such a pedestal. In Europe, it's not true.

 

<snip>

 

I just don't want Americans to feel inferior on this issue. We can learn other languages if we need/want to; we don't need to feel intimidated or inadequate. Sorry to not explain this more clearly before!

 

Of course, Americans can. And so can English Canadians ;-)

And for that matter, French Canadians too. I know many who don't speak a word of English, even if it's mandatory in schools from grade 3.

 

The point of bringing the European standards on this board was only to show that Europeans *aim* higher with foreign languages than *most* North Americans. And by aiming higher, you may get more people to reach a specific fluency level. Americans - as a general rule - don't seem to think fluency is achievable unless under very special conditions. With such attitude, very few will reach a comfortable level in their foreign language.