HS Spanish... Are we all confused??

[cshell]

Are we all confused???:iagree:

I think because alot of us do not speak this language well or at all...it is a bit mystifying!!!

We are not too sure what our goal should be for HS Spanish!!

 

So, when your child is finished High School how familiar with Spanish should he or she be,,,????

 

 

If we could figure this out...picking a curriculum would not be SOOO hard!

 

In just 2 years in High School what type of knowledge do we want our kiddos to have concerning Spanish?

They will probably go on to take 1-2 or more yrs. in College.

 

And even then...what do we want them to come away with...how will this Spanish info. be useful for the Kingdom of God????

 

I think we all need to relax & realize we are here to glorify Him!!!

He has plans for our kiddos...& He even cares how we teach our children their Spanish. Remember He will guide you to the program that is best for your child.

 

 

So, what are your goals for HS Spanish?

What do you want your child to have learned in those 2 years at home?

Please reply....& give us ideas...

When we pick out a HS Spanish program --what are the basic requirements??

What should our goals be?

What are we trying to produce in our kiddos?

 

Let's get our goals set....so we are going in His direction...knowing He has a plan & a purpose in all...even HS Spanish!!!

Blessings,:001_smile:

Christal

Edited April 1, 2010 by cshell

[Jane in NC]

May I propose that your musings begin not with Spanish but with foreign language in general? Why study foreign language may be the broader question that you wish to answer for yourself.

 

For some, the study of a foreign language is actually a window into understanding a student's first language. This was the case for me. I never really understood English grammar until studying Latin in high school. Because I wanted my son to be exposed to the grammar and roots of Latin, this was his first rigorous foreign language exposure. As it turned out, it was an excellent choice given his interest in classical and medieval history.

 

A foreign language is a cultural window. For us, French is an important language for at least minimal exposure. French continues to be the language of diplomacy. But we have limited opportunities for French conversation, so our French studies focused more on grammar and reading comprehension. I still hope that my son will study in a Francophone country some day for immersion into the language.

 

It seem to me that the first year of any foreign language study focuses on basic vocabulary and grammar, something which is further developed in a second year. Two years of a language does not produce proficiency. You ask your fellow boardies what the goal should be. Frankly I think you need to determine this goal for yourself and your children. My goal for my son was four years of Latin as well as several years of French. I would never impose my goal on someone else.

 

I would enjoy hearing from others on their general foreign language goals.

 

Jane

[cshell]

Great thoughts!!!

I was actually trying to ruffle some feathers...make us think....:001_smile:

 

Thanks for your thoughts.... I think you are correct the question is broader than Spanish....:iagree:

 

What are goals that may be achieved by studying 2 yrs. of a language in HS?

Here are some of the questions I originally posted....with a broader perspective!!!

 

What do you want your child to have learned in those 2 years at home?

When we pick out a HS language program --what are the basic requirements?

What could some goals be?

What are we trying to produce in our kiddos??

 

Please don't hesitate to give your own family goals...none of us are trying to

impose our goals on others....just sharpen each other....to encourage & inspire others!!!:grouphug:

I would enjoy hearing from others on their general foreign language goals !!!:001_smile:

[Susan C.]

Our oldest, ds, graduated, did Rosetta Stone for two years. I don't speak Spanish, so it was nice to have him do that independently. He started over in college and is taking Beginning Spanish 2 now. After I saw the book, 12 chapters, and was told it was three semesters of Spanish (the equivalent of Spanish 1-3 in high school), I am not worried about how much we cover with dd. Ds said Rosetta Stone helped with familiarity, but that is it. I am doing Standard Deviants (4 dvds) with dd for Spanish 1. She talks with her friends in Spanish (they are ahead of her). She facebooks in Spanish, you get the idea. Standard Deviants covers the grammar, in fact, she will probably be grammar heavy, vocabulary light by the end of this year. For Spanish 2, I am hoping to be able to afford putting her at the local college my son is at (a 4 year, so one class is about $1000...). I would like to see my ds and dd talking in Spanish with each other, but they don't. I had the vision of all of us learning it, but dd is SO independent, she does the dvds on her own and doesn't want to tell me what she has learned, so, I will just do my best and let her college take it from there (even if it means her starting over at beginning again).

[cshell]

:001_smile:

[2cents]

I'm pretty lucky. We live in FL so I can use the Florida Virtual School (FLVS) languages. My son did 2 years of High School Latin with FLVS. My daughters are taking Spanish with FLVS too. The girls will have 2 years of Middle School Spanish and 2 or 3 years of High School Spanish with them. I like the FLVS classes because they are very structured and emphasize using the correct grammar (conjugations), reading and speaking. The course uses a mic and the instructor has them answering and conversing in Spanish. It is so much more than I (personally speaking) am able to do with them at home. I am hoping that between FLVS and the additional work I will do with them at home that we will have them speaking the language naturally and conversationally. I took two years of Spanish in HS and it was largely wasted. I only did it to satisfy a grad requirement. I want my children to see more value in their language study. My son benefitted greatly from his Latin exposure. The girls like Spanish so we're planning on making that just as valuable.

[cshell]

:001_smile:

[cshell]

:001_smile:

[C_l_e_0..Q_c]

My personal goal is to follow the European Language Portfolio and reach at least level A2. Ideally, after two years a youth should reach B1, talented youths would reach B2.

http://www.coe.int/T/DG4/Portfolio/?L=E&M=/main_pages/levels.html

 

These standards are far from what the average American expects from a language course. My son is working on his second year of Spanish, and he's seen a LOT of stuff. I just got him a tutor, who teaches adults normally (aka me!) The tutor is also impressed by the European standards. They don't aim low at all. Mid-year, my son was studying poetry, not kiddy songs. My son will be attempting the B1 exam in May.

[cshell]

:lurk5:

[Ester Maria]

My personal goal is to follow the European Language Portfolio [...]

Those are my general guidelines too, except for classics.

 

For (modern) Hebrew, I want my older daughter to attain C1-C2, and my younger one to at least keep a good, solid B2 (she's not as interested in the language past the communication part, which she got down already when younger). Since Hebrew is for them a weird mix of a foreign and a familiar (albeit not native) language, since we get to travel to Israel on a yearly basis and supplement our schooling with some Israeli materials, as well as have a heritage connection to the language and the culture, it's important for me that their Hebrew is truly good, and they're also in a lucky position of being able to use it a lot. When they talk about regular daily issues and communicate with people, you basically can't tell they're not natives and they're mistaken for Israeli kids all the time (no accent problems, grammatical features are already intuitive for them, they even get the youth slang, understand TV, etc.), but it's the more technical and literary layers of the language that reveal them, so we're focusing on that.

 

I also want them to reach at least a B1-B2 level in another foreign language before they graduate. Ideally, I'd like them to choose that language for themselves, though I secretly wish they chose French or German, I think that would pay off the most. They technically already have a sort of A1 level in both of them (by the virtue of having spent a lot of time in Austria, and having traveled in the francophone countries, plus French is very similar to Italian).

 

For classics, I want them to have what's referred to as "reading fluency", and I'm okay with slacking a bit on Greek and not gaining a truly comfortable level to read any Greek text naturally, but I want them both to be able to actually read Latin. The older one is already there, and we're getting the younger one there too. So basically, if I were to speak in "portfolio terms" for classics solely from the point of view of reading fluency, I'm okay with B1+ for Greek, but demand a C1 for Latin.

[Jane in NC]

My personal goal is to follow the European Language Portfolio and reach at least level A2. Ideally, after two years a youth should reach B1, talented youths would reach B2.

http://www.coe.int/T/DG4/Portfolio/?L=E&M=/main_pages/levels.html

 

 

 

Those are my general guidelines too, except for classics.

 

 

 

Thank you for referencing the European Language Portfolio scale which is fascinating. Foreign language instruction has been one of the challenges of homeschooling in rural NC. As I have mentioned in previous posts, I managed to keep my head above water in Latin until some point in Latin III, continued my own personal struggle in our introductory Latin literature studies (Ovid, Catullus, Cicero) and am now grateful on a daily basis for my son's AP Latin Vergil instructor.

 

The study of Latin does not depend on the level of conversational skill that is emphasized in the guidelines. We also attempted to learn some French together. A friend who had spent her high school years in West Africa worked with us on conversational skills during French I but felt that the French in Action curriculum quickly outpaced her memory. So we hired another tutor (a non-native speaker) who interestingly insisted that things were pronounced in ways contrary to the FIA audio content. Hmmm.... Eventually our emphasis shifted to reading comprehension (although we do listen to EuroNews in French). I figured that this was the best we could do in our circumstances.

 

The OP began this discussion with that of Spanish study. I know many, many high school students who have studied two to three years of Spanish in high school yet they feel completely unable to maintain a basic conversation. My niece, an attorney who is proficient in Spanish and French, notes that there are so many different Spanish dialects spoken in the US. Understanding idioms is another issue. Do you feel that this is an inherent problem in any modern language study?

[Ester Maria]

I know many, many high school students who have studied two to three years of Spanish in high school yet they feel completely unable to maintain a basic conversation. My niece, an attorney who is proficient in Spanish and French, notes that there are so many different Spanish dialects spoken in the US. Understanding idioms is another issue. Do you feel that this is an inherent problem in any modern language study?

Well, to make you feel better, I know a whole lot of people who had a few years of German at school - in some cases even a lot of years - and who are completely unable to use the language in an active setting, even if they have developed a sort of passive understanding, and even a "feel" for it. We always blamed it on the "nature of German as a language" more than anything else (people used to find it quite, to say so, "unnatural"), since even people who aced French or English at school tended to have problems with German; however, the situation really is, in a way, parallel to the American one with Spanish - despite knowing a lot of people who at some point of their formal education studied German, I know very few people who actually attained a decent level of German (and I'm not talking about fluency or setting some insane criteria right now - what I have in mind is "only" about a solid B1, preferably B2), and if they did, it was usually through self-study, travel and exposure that wasn't directly connected to school studies and often took place once their formal education ended.

 

In the American setting, within the Jewish school system, a surprisingly similar thing is going on with Hebrew. A whole lot of kids attending day schools all their lives are basically unable to speak it past very basic level (which is partially to expect, since the focus is usually put on the religious, and much older, layer of the language - but it's still surprising given that a lot of those kids, at least officially, study their Judaics in Hebrew, and you'd expect them to end up bilingual, even if not balanced bilinguals).

 

The thing is that the school setting itself is not particularly "geared" towards foreign language study, and if you don't outsource it, it usually accomplishes very little. The aforementioned portfolio doesn't even mention B2 in the school setting most of the time (maybe for the first foreign language after a number of years, or for multilingual countries).

 

Idioms are a whole other issue, as well as what's usually referred to as "cultural literacy", the set of specific cultural associations and connotations that each language carries and which is reflected in idioms, sayings, ways to imply things, ways to be humorous about something, etc. That's generally a level that's really hard to attain without actually mingling with speakers to whom it's the primary cultural context, spending a great deal of time in the country where the language is spoken, extensive reading, redoing your school experience in the new language (meaning getting down the vocabulary an educated native speaker would have), getting to know the language on all of its layers (which would include, for English for example, being exposed both to Ebonics and Dickens). In all honesty, I'm not sure I've attained that level with English, despite living in an anglophone country for a number of years and being technically able to read and understand anything - I don't mingle with the native speakers enough (and I'm also guilty of actually preferring the company of other European expats or people raised internationally, exactly because we're of a more similar mentality), I didn't "absorb" the culture enough, and you might even argue that I was too old to start with, and came too burdened with my own set of cultural associations, as opposed to somebody who came here in their 20s, or as opposed to my daughters who came here as toddlers and to whom the "mentality" of English is as natural as the one of Italian. They're the ones who, intuitively, really get the idioms - while I might be aware of them, or I might even consciously go and start learning them, but it might forever elude me the subconscious "why" of them, even if I reach the point of using them "by an ear" rather than by "rules", since I'm operating within, ultimately, a foreign system.

 

Foreign language will for 99% of people who study one at some point remain a foreign system. That doesn't mean that the effort is futile or that nothing will ever be accomplished - a LOT can be accomplished, if you're dedicated. But to talk about idioms, dialects, absolute "naturality" of expression... it's the level, if you don't adopt a foreign culture, you probably won't get, or if you will, it will be gradually, through the decades of using the language after you've formally learned it. But it's not the reason why learning a standard form a foreign language should be hard or impossible. :)

It's just that, as Cleo said originally, that portfolio is actually awfully demanding, there's a more detailed version of the requirements per levels, so if you think it through, you'll see how far from B - let alone C - you are if you just went through your typical high school Spanish. Which is another reason to outsource, heavily, and to maximize the contact with the layers of the language aimed at natives, that's possibly the only hope of ever becoming near-native, if you score that high.

 

(Sometimes I really hate the fact I work from the computer. I spend far more time on these boards than working. Which results in essays like this. I'm sorry for the length, though you all probably got used to it already. :D)

Edited April 2, 2010 by Ester Maria

[Jane in NC]

Well, to make you feel better, I know a whole lot of people who had a few years of German at school - in some cases even a lot of years - and who are completely unable to use the language in an active setting, even if they have developed a sort of passive understanding, and even a "feel" for it.

 

 

 

After two years of college German, I was excited to practice the language in Germany. What I discovered was that my knowledge of German was paltry compared to the average German citizen's knowledge of English. Back in the late '70's, when I was an undergrad, I found my German to be more useful with an older generation in pre-Solidarność Poland. Young people there spoke English beautifully. I used my German regularly on buses, in restaurants, etc. (after explaining that I was an American--resentments understandably remained.) I suspect that a different picture would emerge today.

 

Foreign language will for 99% of people who study one at some point remain a foreign system. That doesn't mean that the effort is futile or that nothing will ever be accomplished - a LOT can be accomplished, if you're dedicated. But to talk about idioms, dialects, absolute "naturality" of expression... it's the level, if you don't adopt a foreign culture, you probably won't get, or if you will, it will be gradually, through the decades of using the language after you've formally learned it. But it's not the reason why learning a standard form a foreign language should be hard or impossible.

 

 

Frankly I think that many Americans see no reason to study foreign language under the assumption that English is spoken everywhere. While this may be true, much of the nuance of a culture is missed by those who do not attempt at least the basics of a language.

 

Your post leaves me thinking about the desire that I have had for decades to learn French. I had been working on the language but have abandoned it in recent times. Perhaps after I launch my son I can approach French in the way I formerly approached piano as adult: with scheduled daily practice.

 

With gratitude for your thoughtful response and warmest regards,

Jane

[cshell]

:001_smile:

[cshell]

:001_smile:

[Elinor Everywhere]

My personal goal is to follow the European Language Portfolio and reach at least level A2. Ideally, after two years a youth should reach B1, talented youths would reach B2.

http://www.coe.int/T/DG4/Portfolio/?L=E&M=/main_pages/levels.html

 

These standards are far from what the average American expects from a language course. My son is working on his second year of Spanish, and he's seen a LOT of stuff. I just got him a tutor, who teaches adults normally (aka me!) The tutor is also impressed by the European standards. They don't aim low at all. Mid-year, my son was studying poetry, not kiddy songs. My son will be attempting the B1 exam in May.

 

So......if a parent is not fluent in a foreign language, how can this be accomplished? A year abroad as an exchange student? Private tutors (ala your son)? Some fantastic curriculum that I haven't heard about yet? It would be great if that could be accomplished via a curriculum, but I know you're going to tell me to hire a tutor. I promise my hands aren't over my ears... :D

[C_l_e_0..Q_c]

So......if a parent is not fluent in a foreign language, how can this be accomplished? A year abroad as an exchange student? Private tutors (ala your son)? Some fantastic curriculum that I haven't heard about yet? It would be great if that could be accomplished via a curriculum, but I know you're going to tell me to hire a tutor. I promise my hands aren't over my ears... :D

 

Well, first of all, get yourself a European curriculum, not an American one. I found American ones to go very slowly, and are quite boring. A European one will get the kids into reading interesting texts much more quickly. My son managed the first year without a tutor, those curricula come with plenty of audio. However, to keep the interest in the language, I do believe you need occasions to converse, eventually.

[Brindee]

 

Well, first of all, get yourself a European curriculum, not an American one. I found American ones to go very slowly, and are quite boring. A European one will get the kids into reading interesting texts much more quickly. My son managed the first year without a tutor, those curricula come with plenty of audio. However, to keep the interest in the language, I do believe you need occasions to converse, eventually.

How do we look at the European programs to see what we'd want, and then, perhaps, order them?

[C_l_e_0..Q_c]

How do we look at the European programs to see what we'd want, and then, perhaps, order them?

 

What language are you interested in?

 

I would do a search on <language> european standard and see what comes up.

 

For Spanish, EDELSA is a big editor.

http://www.edelsa.es/inicio_content.php

 

It helps if you know a bit of the target language to order :)

[Brindee]

What language are you interested in?

 

I would do a search on <language> european standard and see what comes up.

 

For Spanish, EDELSA is a big editor.

http://www.edelsa.es/inicio_content.php

 

It helps if you know a bit of the target language to order :)

We're interested in Spanish.

 

Uh-oh, basically I can count to 10 in Spanish, and say hello, goodbye, thankyou and you're welcome.......................I don't think that'll get me very far for ordering! :D So, the link you provided doesn't get me very far, since it's in Spanish. Maybe I should just stick with American stuff?

[Reya]

My niece, an attorney who is proficient in Spanish and French, notes that there are so many different Spanish dialects spoken in the US. Understanding idioms is another issue. Do you feel that this is an inherent problem in any modern language study?

 

Spanish dialectical differences are really pretty minimal. Smaller than differences in English within Britain, for instance.

[chadzwife]

The reason I would teach a conversational langauge such as Spanish or ASL is so they could speak (converse with a deaf person with) it...so they'd have to be fairly fluent to satisfy me.

Also, tho, foreign language teaches alot of ENGLISH grammar so there's that 2, if nothing else comes from it.

BUT

I have way way way more than 2 yrs of Spanish. I start when theyre young. Do The Learnables pretty young too. Those 2 yrs of formal Spanish should be doable in jr high. SOOO you've got all those teen yrs to concentrate on Span Lit or Latin Lit or learning Greek/Hebrew OORRR other languages the student wants to learn. But had to wait to do much on the regular, as mom was requiring other languages first lol.

(ya just hafta take piano first in our family, ya just hafta learn latin; and at least some ASL for the locale we live in)

Ideally, have a Spanish-speaking 20something come live w/you when ur kids are young to help care for/educate them.

Or find someone Spanish-speaking in ur church who wants to give of themselves, just holding conversations with ur kids 2x a week even. Maybe ur kids could go work at their house and speak to them for a few hrs whilst working?

 

The thing is, the person helping you in the grammar and the not the speaking part of language study has to be someone who knows how to educate. I used a native older teen once who was clueless (she spoke english fluently) about lang study. She was confusing, went off on tangents, no structure and got mad when i tried to help her TEACHING--cuz i was not a native born speaker, i didn't know how to teach it, was her thinking. When in reality, she did not know how to teach, period. AND I did know quite a bit of the language myself so I had both perspectives. FRUSTRATING and we quit that fast. lol

[Rain]

So, the link you provided doesn't get me very far, since it's in Spanish. Maybe I should just stick with American stuff?

 

I found a similar one in English

 

http://www.europeanbookshop.com/languagebooks/subject/SPA/m1

[Brindee]

I found a similar one in English

 

http://www.europeanbookshop.com/languagebooks/subject/SPA/m1

Thankyou Rain!

 

Anyone know if we can buy these in the US with US money? This one uses the British pound for payment.

[Matryoshka]

Thankyou Rain!

 

Anyone know if we can buy these in the US with US money? This one uses the British pound for payment.

 

Continenalbook.com in the US sells books from the European publishers, but they're not usable if you don't speak Spanish - all the instructions, and all the teacher guides, everything - is 100% in Spanish.

 

One book series I just have to put in a plug for, which is in fact only available from the European link (in Britain), is El español con juegos y actividades. It's not a main curriculum, but it's a fantastic supplement. Yes, it's all in Spanish as well, but it's fairly self-explanatory - the kids I teach in addition to my own have been able to figure most everything out even though their parents can't help them, and all eight kids I've used it with love it. I've ordered it from the European Bookshop in Britain (yes, you can just use your credit card and it'll convert the currency automatically), and the shipping isn't bad.