Would like your opinions about Algebra...the more the better

[distancia]

Hi, I'm new here and looking for insight.

 

We pulled our D out of ps and she was halfway through Algebra 2. September 2009 she was 16.5, 1 month into Algebra 2, and her SAT score was 500...good for some, but with an IQ over 140+ , an SAT score of 500 shows a lack of something and and she knows it. For a variety of reasons her math scores do not reflect her abilities. She has had some bad math teachers, bad math textbooks, bad health, bad attitude, and an apathetic high school experience. Anyway:

 

After much research I ordered TT (through Pre-Calc) for her, thinking that the program would fill in any missing gaps and bring her up to speed. This past week she has tried it. She likes the pace and the "man's nice voice". However, her mindset is like that of many other ps students: rush through, get a good grade, move on as fast as possible to get this over with. I am trying to have her understand that if she does this right, and takes her time and learns this information--both current and whatever she missed way back in pre-algebra--the RIGHT way, then the payoff will be greater: if she scores a 680 or higher on her SAT she will be exempt from College Algebra (essentially a repeat of Algebra 2 hs level) or she will be able to CLEP the College Algebra and College Mathemtics tests. At the very worst, having to take College Algebra will be a breeze, if she is well-prepared.

 

Last night I gave my husband (a chemistry professor) and my daughter's boyfriend (a pre-med student) an Algebra 1 problem I found in the TT. Here it is:

 

Mr. Cash invested $80,000 in various stocks and bonds. He earned a 7% dividend on his stocks and 5% interest on his bonds, for a one year profit (from both stocks and bonds) of $4,900. How much did Mr. Cash invest in bonds?

 

After 45 minutes my husband became irritable and gave up trying to solve this. After a 5 minute attempt my d's bf announced "there is no solution". This morning I awoke to an email from my husband with the incorrect answer.

 

Now, this is not a hard problem. Yet here we have 2 educated individuals, both math whizzes, and neither could master a simple algebra word problem. Nor, for that matter, can I...I watched the explanatory video 3x and "got" the way it was done, but that was it. I can't do another, similar problem without assistance...the only way I can do this type of problem is to draw a picture! And my daughter? She just skips over these, figuring that if there are 10 problems, and only 1 word problem, she can get the other 9 problems right and score a 90.

 

This tells me something is wrong with the way we teach math in the US.

 

While perusing other material I came across the methodology behind Singapore Math. I agree with the concepts: it is better to master fewer concepts than have a superficial knowledge of many bits and pieces (the US method). Also, it seems to stress a different way of "looking at" math.

 

Questions:

 

1) Can I start D off at Singapore Math at a primary school level to "get her brain thinking that way"? (She'll hate me!).

 

2) Is Singapore Math really that different a perspective or is it just more repetition? Meaning, doing 50 word problems (instead of one) until you memorize the process. Is it like Math-U-See, which I had her try in elementary school--I loved it but she hated it.

 

3) Or is it actually UNDERSTANDING the process of interpreting a word problem?

 

4) Is it literally a whole 'nother mindset, seeing math as more concrete than abstract? (which would work wonders for me!)

 

5) Is there a better way that is NOT Singapore Math?

 

6) Can I mix the Singapore Math with TT? Are they diametrically opposed?

 

Thank you so much for your help!

Edited March 14, 2010 by distancia

[Pamela H in Texas]

I really cannot answer your questions, but I do think it is VERY unlikely that your daughter is going to gain 180 points on the SAT using TT and she certainly won't do WELL without going through at least precalc unless she just has a huge amount of intuition and/or other math exposure. And even going through preCalc, the majority of TT users then start at college algebra or precalc, not calc I.

 

What *I* would do is get a much stronger program (which your daughter may not like pace wise based on your post) and do as much as you can. And plan on her taking college algebra (as she's already 17). Where you would start with her in another program would be dependent on her skills. If she is having any issues with fractions, decimals, percentage, roots, etc, I'd start with something like Dolciani's PreAlgebra or Lial's Basic College Mathematics. She can PROBABLY get through the BCM and Algebras by Lial in a semester each as she already has had so much exposure.

 

It is MOST important for her to have a firm foundation. I would worry less about her level.

[Brindee]

You had an earlier post where you asked about what to use, right? The consensus came back to try TT Algebra 2, so you got that. Am I right? There were people who said they'd used TT and done very well in testing out of college maths and doing well on the SAT/ACT tests, so I'm not sure where the above poster's information came from! It was already mentioned in the other post that you should try to get her through the TT Pre-Calc, I believe. Since you have the TT now, I would continue with it. The good thing about TT is that it explains the reasons why, so that when other problems come up, you CAN switch the knowledge to the new problem.

 

But, you're not happy with TT because of what you just described? Are there other problems with it? Can you just tell your dd NOT to skip the word problems? That's part of learning and understanding how to!

 

We're doing TT with some Life of Fred to supplement. It helps to go back and forth between a couple of programs, so that's a good option!

 

Sorry, I don't know enough about Singapore to answer the question about it...

 

Best wishes!

Edited March 14, 2010 by Brindee

[cmpet7]

My son used TT for Algebra 1. Initially, he also had trouble with word problems. As he progressed through the course he became better at the word problems. TT uses so much repetition that he sort of internalized what to do. Tell her not to skip the word problems because that is the point of Algebra, it can be used for real problems. Perhaps supplement with a book that gives word problems for Alg 1. It may be that she needs the review here.

Edited March 14, 2010 by cmpet7

[In The Great White North]

Mr. Cash invested $80,000 in various stocks and bonds. He earned a 7% dividend on his stocks and 5% interest on his bonds, for a one year profit (from both stocks and bonds) of $4,900. How much did Mr. Cash invest in bonds?

 

 

The problem with this problem is not the math but the definitions. Does she know what dividends and interest are? Does the book say somewhere that the interest is compounded annually (as opposed to monthly, quarterly, etc) so she could make that assumption?

 

As for a SAT score of 500 and IQ of 140, I don't think algebra II will help her there at all. There is hardly any algebra II on the SAT and she's smart enough to figure most of them out.

 

Try giving her a timed test of a sheet of math facts (like a hundred multiplication problems in two minutes - just barely enough time to write them in, not enough time to figure them out.) Although they are allowed to use calculators, knowing math facts cold speeds the whole thing up and time is of the essence. It also helps dramatically with fractions and factoring. If she has been in a ps the whole time and calculators were allowed, she may not know them as well as she needs to.

 

After the math facts, do another timed test with fractions, then decimals, then percents. If none of those are the weak link, then you know you can concentrate on story problems.

 

Have you tried the Aleks free trial?

[distancia]

Have you tried the Aleks free trial?

 

Yes, and D scored something like a 227 out of 306 or something, intermediate algebra. It was accurate in showing her weak areas. And great point about practicing simple arithmetic skills, because I know for a fact that my girl cannot do simple decimals (10%, 20%) in her head...forget trying to figure a tip in a cafe!

 

We are reviewing TT on a trial right now. What prompted this is an editorial on the Math Mammoth boards: it made me re-think the whole concept of how to learn math, including the higher maths.

 

My concern is the overall approach to math, regardless of whether it is TT, LOF, Saxon, or whatever...this is where I need clarificaiton on what Singpaore Math is (the methodology) and what it is not. TT has a very in-depth explanatory approach, but nevertheless, is the methodology to teaching math really any different than any other US source?

 

With MUC it was really cool (for me) because when I started using the manipulatives, all these lightbulbs went off in my head, and I could see how the abacus system in China worked...base systems that could be observed and, well, manipulated.

 

As an adult I felt, intuitively, that MUC gave me a connection between what was real and what was abstract, and conceptually I would be able to transfer material things into ideas. For my daughter, though, who relies entirely too much on (selective) memory...well, memory doesn't cut it when you get into higher levels of math. Witness my husband and D's boyfriend: neither of them could do anything more than the first step of the word problem. No fault of TT: it is the way we in America approach math.

 

So no, I am not dissatisfied with TT, I am just wondering if it is "more of the same" (though with a kindlier approach) US math. Likewise, I am wondering if Singapore Math is so much different and the pedagogy behind it.

Edited March 14, 2010 by distancia

[Mejane]

As to Singapore... both of my kids used it through 6. Daughter never really got the bar diagrams that are such an integral part of the program because she started in 3B (in fifth grade). Son got it because he started in 1B (in second grade.) It's difficult to get the bar diagrams without starting almost at the beginning. Is your 16yo going to be willing to do this? I know my 17yo would balk.

 

I do believe Singapore gave them a very good foundation for conceptualizing math and doing mental math, however. They have gone on to Teaching Textbooks and are both doing well.

Edited March 15, 2010 by Mejane

[Corraleno]

As to Singapore... both of my kids used it through 6. Daughter never really got the bar diagrams that are such an integral part of the program because she started in 3B (in fifth grade). Son got it because he started in 1B (in second grade.) It's difficult to get the bar diagrams without starting almost at the beginning.

 

Math Mammoth uses the "bar diagram" approach to word problems as well, and I don't think a student necessarily needs to start at the beginning to get the concept of it. My son started MM in 4th, and got the bar diagram approach fairly easily when he was still in 4A.

 

To the OP: here's a blog that explains how to use bar diagrams with word problems (I'm sure there are similar resources out there as well, if you poke around). You don't have to do the whole Singapore or MM program to understand this part:

http://letsplaymath.wordpress.com/2007/10/02/pre-algebra-problem-solving-3rd-grade/

 

Jackie

Edited March 15, 2010 by Corraleno

[Sunshine State Sue]

Here's my 2c, fwiw. First, a little background: I have a degree in math and ds is math-oriented. We used MUS from K thru Algebra, supplementing with Singapore's Challenging Word Problems. We did a 2nd year of Algebra 1 this year using Foerster's. He just completed it. I LOVE Foerster's, partially because it has clear explanations, partially because it has many, many word problems, partially because it teaches the student step-by-step how to complete the word problems, and especially because it's challenging and thorough.

 

Mr. Cash invested $80,000 in various stocks and bonds. He earned a 7% dividend on his stocks and 5% interest on his bonds, for a one year profit (from both stocks and bonds) of $4,900. How much did Mr. Cash invest in bonds?

This is so simple (I hope I am not putting my foot in my mouth):

x=amount in stocks (Foerster's ALWAYS makes them define their variables)

y=amount in bonds

x+y=80,000

 

.07x = stock dividend

.05y = bond interest

.07x+.05y=4,900

 

Now you have 2 equations. They have been taught 2 ways to solve them: by substitution (x=80,000-y and substitute in 2nd equation) or by the linear combination method (multiply 1st equation by -.07 or -.05 and add to 2nd equation)

 

Questions:

 

1) Can I start D off at Singapore Math at a primary school level to "get her brain thinking that way"? (She'll hate me!).

Here's my experience. When ds was in 2nd grade, I tried to supplement MUS with Singapore. He had been taught in MUS how to add vertically, starting with the 1s, next the 10s, next the 100s, carrying if necessary. Singapore teaches adding horizontally. They add the 100s, then the 10s, then the 1s, carrying and readjusting the prior digit if necessary. Ds knew how to add one way and was absolutely.not.interested in learning another way. I can't imagine what kind of resistance I would get trying to start over with a teenager.

 

2) Is Singapore Math really that different a perspective or is it just more repetition? Meaning, doing 50 word problems (instead of one) until you memorize the process. Is it like Math-U-See, which I had her try in elementary school--I loved it but she hated it.

Singapore math is a completely different way to teach/learn math. In all honesty, I had a hard time teaching it because it was so different from the way I had learned.

 

3) Or is it actually UNDERSTANDING the process of interpreting a word problem?

Yes, it does help with understanding the process of interpreting a word problem. It helps the student to be able to see it in their mind at a very young age. Singapore's CWP (and I assume the rest of the program) has the students create bar diagrams to solve Algebra problems.

 

4) Is it literally a whole 'nother mindset, seeing math as more concrete than abstract? (which would work wonders for me!)

Having no experience with Singapore besides the CWP, I am not very well equipped to answer this one. I read a post the other day about Singapore's methods: pictorial->something->abstract. I'm afraid I didn't pay enough attention. Someone else will have to answer this.

 

5) Is there a better way that is NOT Singapore Math?

I love Foerster's myself.

 

 

 

My 2c. I'm only an expert on my child though. By the way, I took 8FillsTheHeart's advice and had ds do the odd problems, but ALL the word problems.

[titianmom]

Hi, I'm new here and looking for insight.

 

We pulled our D out of ps and she was halfway through Algebra 2. September 2009 she was 16.5, 1 month into Algebra 2, and her SAT score was 500...good for some, but with an IQ over 140+ , an SAT score of 500 shows a lack of something and and she knows it. For a variety of reasons her math scores do not reflect her abilities. She has had some bad math teachers, bad math textbooks, bad health, bad attitude, and an apathetic high school experience. Anyway:

 

After much research I ordered TT (through Pre-Calc) for her, thinking that the program would fill in any missing gaps and bring her up to speed. This past week she has tried it. She likes the pace and the "man's nice voice". However, her mindset is like that of many other ps students: rush through, get a good grade, move on as fast as possible to get this over with.

 

Hi, FWIW, it isn't a PS student mindset. It's a teenager mindset.

 

Mine has been homeschooled since 4 and she sounds just like your daughter. Bright, but really doesn't want to work too hard at anything, you know?

 

I'm struggling with finding the "best" math curriculum, myself. Wishing you the best,

 

Kim

PS: Looking at Lial's 8th ed, Life of Fred and Saxon... and a child can be very bright and still not get math very well; it's all about the wiring. :)

[EKS]

When my son was having trouble with TT, I sat with him and we did the practice problems together. I would do this with all word problems (in the practice set) for the foreseeable future. Just passively watching the video is not going to do it. She needs to actively engage with the material and when things are hard, it is important to be there to help with that process.

 

I've found that it helps me to try the problems myself first, which forces me to struggle with any issues I have solving them. Then I look at the solutions to be sure I completely understand what's going on before working with my son. When he gets stuck, instead of showing him what to do right away, I try to ask questions that help lead him through it. After several sessions this way, he is usually good to go on his own again.

[Carmen_and_Company]

For starters, the SAT math sections do not cover math quite the way we think of mathematics. Most of the problems lean more toward logic, and a majority use basic math. What makes the math section hard, is how College Board words the problems, and the board's use of unconventional symbols.

 

I would continue with algebra II, but also have your dd work through Chalkdust's ACT-SAT Math Review program. Has your dd taken the ACT yet? Some students do better on the ACT than the SAT, as one tests knowledge, and the other critical/logical thinking.