Brainstorm with me, please: LAC vs. state univ (some CC, but opinions welcome)

[Halftime Hope]

ETA: sorry, the subject should have said *all* opinions welcome

 

So we're in a situation where dd has earned great merit scholarships but they will not cover the entire cost of her education at a LAC. She would have to go into some debt or a lot of debt, depending on the school, to pay for her education. We have saved quite a bit for her, but not nearly enough to cover the entire cost. The EFC is laughable.

 

She has earned enough scholarship $ at the local uni to entirely cover her tuition this year and by the end of four years, it might still cover the major portion of the tuition, if tuition increases continue at the projected rate. At the uni she would be in the honors program (which has some decent perks, like priority enrollment), and it has a respected, accredited program in art, but that is not her main passion: biblical studies/ministry/pastoral studies are. However, she is thinking about double majoring in art and the other at a LAC.

 

She thinks she wants to go to seminary and eventually become a chaplain or perhaps do some kind of counseling, although she has thought about art therapy. All would require a masters degree and more $$, although, surprisingly, seminary tuition seems to run quite a bit less than undergrad work.

 

I am all emotional about the problem that her heart's desire in a major, her peers, her mentors are *not* at the uni but at the LAC. Dh, who went to the uni and found his career niche there in a very different world 30 years ago, points out that one way to achieve her final goal without being manacled with debt is to do the uni for undergrad and then pursue her grad degreee with more freedom. (Thirty years, but the realities of $ haven't changed.)

 

 

CC: I'm really torn over this, because dh has a good track record of wisdom and discernment in bringing things to the table for us to decide on together. I, on the other hand, am very often motivated by fear.

 

 

Will you brainstorm this with me? Arguments pro and con? We are going to have this discussion over the next few weeks as financial aid packages come rolling in and she has to start making tough decisions.

 

ETA2: She knows what the state uni is like, as she has already taken 18 hours there. She'd most likely live at home. From an emotional and maturity standpoint, she is ready to spread her wings. It could be argued that making this choice for financial reasons, a la Dave Ramsey, would be the ultimate in maturity, but there is so much more than just $.

Edited February 25, 2010 by Valerie(TX)

[Michelle in AL]

I don't have a dd going off until 2 yrs, but here's what helping us to get a flavor of colleges she's interested in:

Look at the courses for her major at each school One school may fit her desires better.

 

Look at student reviews (google univ+Student reviews). This can give you an idea as to the party factor of the school, attitude of the student body and the quality of professors.

 

Of course you have to consider # too.

[Jane in NC]

The way I see it, a decision needs to be made base on a number of factors, only one of which is money. The school that is the best "deal" on paper may not be the best "deal" in the long term if the college is not a good match for the student.

 

My son has been primarily drawn to LACs although he applied to two larger universities as well. One is a large, private uni that is a leader in his intended major. (My take is that he should go there for grad school.) The other is a state uni. I asked him to choose one and apply there in case the economy went to heck. It has not obviously. But that is only one reason that this state school is all but off the table. We have yet to see if they will offer any merit aid. At this point, all he knows is that he has been accepted in their honors program which means a nicer dorm and greater opportunities for research and travel grants.

 

The key difference that he has noted is the lack of personal touch between materials from the state U and those delightful LACs. Yes, you pay for personal touch. The state U sends a form letter. The LACs have hand written notes or make mention of some personal tidbit in their acceptance letters. It is a token gesture which one could argue comes at a price. Or does it indicate the general philosophy of the college?

 

Perhaps I am biased. I attended a small LAC for undergrad and then received a grad degree from a large state U. When I was a TA, I saw a number of freshmen get swallowed by impersonal courses or the party scene in the high rise dorms. I also saw a number of students rise above the nonsense and do quite well. But my own personal LAC experience was so different. I was on a first name basis with a number of profs, had coffee with them, would stop by their offices a year after being in their class to say hello. That is certainly true of my grad experience but my department was small--essentially like a mini-college within the larger campus.

 

But I understand your fear of debt. If my son's options required significant debt, I would perhaps be working on survival skills for the State U. Generous merit aid still leaves a large gap.

 

Perhaps it is premature to make a decision. Maybe those who have BTDT will let us know if financial aid packages change before the May 1 deadline. I know some parents have phoned financial aid offices. If the debt level is beyond your comfort zone, maybe you could do this?

 

:grouphug: I'm keeping vigil with you, sister.

Jane

[readwithem]

The way I see it, a decision needs to be made base on a number of factors, only one of which is money. The school that is the best "deal" on paper may not be the best "deal" in the long term if the college is not a good match for the student.

 

 

 

I totally agree with this. My dd discovered early on in our process that she definitely wanted a smaller environment, small classes all taught by professors (as opposed to TAs). So she's never wavered from that.

 

Having said that, is there a way for your dd to make the big state uni like a small LAC? Could she do honors courses and live in the honor dorm? I'm not sure which state uni is in play, but I can tell you UT feels like a city to me, it's so spread out. But I do know people who have gone there in the Plan II program and that made it feel like a smaller school.

 

How far do you live from the state U? Could she come home spontaneously if she needed to fill up her emotional tank? Is there a Christian ministry on the campus you feel could help her find her niche?

 

Where does your dd see herself?

[Halftime Hope]

Jane, Michelle, and readwiththem! Good thoughts!

[KnitWit]

Hi Valerie!

 

We are in the SAME BOAT!! :) Well, except that my dd's pursuit is collaborative music. :)

 

She can go to state U for free, or, if it all comes through, *mostly* paid at a Christian liberal arts school.

 

LAC has E.X.A.C.T.Y. the program she wants. PERFECT fit.

 

State U would be a performance degree.

 

The other thing I recently noticed about her awards, the State U letters specifically state 4 years. The LAC specifically state *up to 5 years*. I called the State U and they told me that MOST of their students graduate in FIVE years, some 6, less common is 4. Hmm....when I asked *why*, among the reasons, which most were student choices, was *class availability*, which would be IN SPITE OF student choice.

 

I called LAC AND spoke with the Dept. Head there, they are COMMITTED to getting the kids out in four unless it is the choice of the student to go another year and they said that is with great counsel and prayer behind it.

 

It feels stupid to walk away from *free* schooling...but I think we are. My dd also has the opportunity of getting a pianist position which would be *paid*, beyond her scholarship or work study, after her freshman year, so that will help.

 

Blah, blah, blah... LOL! I don't think I said anything helpful really! LOL! We do understand though! And I agree, we have come to the place that we are seeing the some things DO go beyond the money.

[Orthodox6]

Please tell this Texas resident, and a Christian, what is an "LAC" ??

Thank you !

[Jane in NC]

Please tell this Texas resident, and a Christian, what is an "LAC" ??

Thank you !

 

Liberal Arts College.

 

Jane (happy to translate)

[KnitWit]

Liberal Arts College :)

 

Oops! Jane wasn't there! Sorry to be redundant!

[April in CA]

Hello Valerie,

My hear goes out to you and your family as you make some difficult decisions about your daughter's college plans. We are looking at some of the same things with my son, and all his choices (the best ones, anyway) are far, far from home - so I will be in serious need of support in August! But I digress!!

An important economic consideration to think about is what her projected job possibilities/income would be upon graduation. What kinds of jobs could she gt with a bach degree in her chosen field? Would the income be enough to support her and pay back her debt in a timely fashion? No matter how wonderful the undergrad experience might be, she probably doesn't want to be in the position of not being able to take a great ministry position because she needs more money to pay off her college loans. Also, how long would it reasonably take her to pay off any debt she incurs? Since it sound like she will need to pursue a Master's degree to get to the place s he really wants to be, I would think long and hard before taking on significant debt as an undergrad.

 

By the way, and sort of off-topic, I totally get how nifty it is to get personal attention from a LAC. My son has been accepted to Calvin in Grand RApids, Mich, and they send the nicest letters!

 

Blessings and prayers for clarity of thought,

April

[Orthodox6]

Liberal Arts College.

 

Jane (happy to translate)

 

Thanks ! You know, I would have thought that, except that the op was written to sound as if two oppositional types of schools were under discussion. . . . One can obtain a solid "liberal arts education" from a state university. In fact, that was the premise underlying UT-Austin's crafting of the honors program, "Plan II". (don't know whether it still exists) Also, some state universities are small. (but size is a subjective, relative observation)

 

I guess the question is, rather, whether to attend a small private school or a larger public school -- ?

 

The point about classes being taught by TAs is good -- but this differs from school-to-school. It can be investigated, if this is a consideration. During my undergraduate years at what seemed to me a large (albeit private) university, I took the "behemoth population" math and science introductory courses -- all of which were taught by full professors. TAs were for labs, only.

 

At any rate, OPs daughter sounds like a talented girl with a lot going for her. She probably will do well in most any environment !

[outtamyshell]

It's easy to get sucked into the LAC mindset when you value education as highly as we do. When we toured St John's College, I was ready to sell the house and go into debt so dd could go there. An education like that would be a dream! It's the kind of education the very wealthy would have received back in the old days. Alas, we are not wealthy. In fact, it wasn't long ago that we were very poor.

 

But I've got to put a vote in for the practical side. If you're offered a deal... two elephants for a quarter... it's only a good deal if you need two elephants AND you've got a quarter. In this case, you feel like you really need those two elephants. I know exactly how you feel. But practically speaking, it sounds like this dd is going to spend her life in service to others and not making much money. All of that debt is going to be a burden that will limit her future choices.

 

I agree that she's a bright girl and will be successful anywhere she decides to go. It's easy to get lost in a large university. It's important to find a way to pare down the size of the school and get her into a program with smaller class sizes. Not being able to get into classes is a huge draw-back at the big universities. But it sounds like both of these negatives are overcome by the honors program.

 

One of your negatives about the local university is that she's ready to spread her wings. Would she have to live at home? Would she be able to spread her wings at the cheaper school?

 

Another point you brought up is the individual attention at the LACs. Is it really true that she won't be able to find the mentors and opportunities in her field at the University? Or will she just need to work harder to get it? I think some of the benefit of researching LACs for us is the vision of what we want out of the educational experience. Then we've come home and looked for ways to get that education at a price we can afford.

 

Good luck. And don't make your decisions based on fear. Lack of fear is part of what will help you to know you've made the right decision. And there's plenty to fear in both directions!

[Halftime Hope]

Thanks ! You know, I would have thought that, except that the op was written to sound as if two oppositional types of schools were under discussion. . . . One can obtain a solid "liberal arts education" from a state university. In fact, that was the premise underlying UT-Austin's crafting of the honors program, "Plan II". (don't know whether it still exists) Also, some state universities are small. (but size is a subjective, relative observation)

 

Our local UT branch which gives quite a bit more scholarship funding. We looked at UT Austin for art, but I couldn't get *any* information about what kind of scholarship funding they might provide, and believe me, I tried a variety of avenues--no one was forth-coming on even ballpark amounts. Dd didn't really want to be there, so we decided not even to try.

 

 

I was posing the two (LAC vs. state uni) as opposing choices because it's not so much about "liberal arts at any school" as it is about private, religious LACs as a group (well, at least the few that we've IDed as good matches), at which dd could get a LA education that included her first choice field vs. a secular uni which, of course, offers little direction or mentoring regarding the integration of faith and learning.

 

I guess the question is, rather, whether to attend a small private school or a larger public school -- ? To some degree, but dd did not want to attend the religious-based flagship school either, b/c it is too large. (She goes to a state uni campus that has 25K students.)

 

The point about classes being taught by TAs is good -- but this differs from school-to-school. It can be investigated, if this is a consideration. During my undergraduate years at what seemed to me a large (albeit private) university, I took the "behemoth population" math and science introductory courses -- all of which were taught by full professors. TAs were for labs, only. And at our same uni, ds has had several fantastic TAs who were much better teachers than the profs they were replacing.

 

At any rate, OPs daughter sounds like a talented girl with a lot going for her. She probably will do well in most any environment ! Thanks!

 

I'm sorry if this is kinda disjointed...I have a muddled head today.

 

 

 

I appreciate everyone's thoughts!

Edited February 26, 2010 by Valerie(TX)

[emubird]

Some random thoughts:

 

There are good and bad profs everywhere. (And good and bad TAs at the schools that use them.)

 

Debt will be a big consideration for the field your daughter is considering.

 

One of the schools (LAC) my daughter is considering told us point blank that they know the W-2 forms don't tell the whole financial story. They were inviting families to tell them if their needs were higher for some reason. I obviously don't know if that's true for all schools, but it might be worth investigating.

 

There are religion depts within the big schools that concern themselves with faith issues -- I know a couple kids in religion at the big U near here who are finding it just what they would like. I think one does have to be somewhat tolerant of other ideas -- A big university is going to be a place of many ideas and faiths etc, but that doesn't mean one has to change one's own ideas and values to fit in. It may be that joining clubs or organizations will help her to fit in and find kindred spirits. If she's already at the school now, she might want to see if she can find some of these groups to see if they'd be helpful.

 

I did ok at a big university. The big classes were mostly in the first two years. After that they got much smaller and more personal. If your daughter has already done a number of credits, she may have gotten a significant number of those large classes out of the way already.

 

At big schools, you really do have to search out opportunities. There aren't people holding your hand quite so much. In general. But everything depends on the particular school.

 

Folks at small schools will give you a very impressive picture of what their school is like -- but there aren't so many people doing PR (on a per capita basis) at large schools. So the large schools may not look as great.

 

In some ways, large schools provide more opportunities as there are more varied classes and more majors to choose from. Depends on the school.

 

I suspect seminary is where most of the important topics for pastors are covered. Undergrad is probably more the basic stuff -- reading, communicating, history, that kind of thing. A woman who works at the local seminary here told me she thought that the students coming in who had already had Greek or Latin had a bit of an advantage -- but that suggests that there are plenty of students coming in who have had neither who do just fine.

 

Most colleges do a fine job of educating most students. Brochures may tell you otherwise, admissions folks may tell you otherwise, but that really is the reality. When I went to grad school, my fellow students came from ALL kinds of backgrounds, educationally speaking, but we were all on a pretty equal footing. Except that a few (not all) of the kids from small LACs seemed to *think* they were smarter. They were cured of that problem within the first semester or so. Even those people who had started out at CC because their grades weren't good enough at first for a 4 year school did just fine in the grad school I was in.

 

Also, a number of LACs do offer scholarships to transfer students. So if she goes to the big U and finds it's really not what she wants, there may still be the option to transfer.

[Orthodox6]

Hi, Valerie !

 

I don't know where in Texas you live; however, if you live way down south, the UT branch there (UT-Pan American) seems generous with financial aid. I am friends with two young ladies currently enrolled there, and receiving sizeable amounts of financial aid. They are from a deeply religious (Orthodox Christian) family, and are very, very happy with the school. The older of the two, in fact, wants to study music at one of the seminaries for her graduate work.

 

I attended UT-Austin for graduate school, following my undergraduate years at a smaller university out east. It did not occur to me to seek spiritual guidance and/or support from a school. That came from the church communities with which I was involved while a student. Just a thought. . .

[Elisheva]

I took on heavy debt for a religious school and have never ceased to regret it. What if she wants to be a SAHM?

 

YMMV.