Saying No to AP

[Guest]

Is anyone turning their backs on the whole AP class route and doing anything different? I have found myself extremely disenchanted with the domination of AP classes, their focus on memorization and testing, the superficial coverage at the expense of in-depth focus. AP has a huge influence, practically prescribing high school course choices for college-bound kids in California due to the UC system's pushing of weighted course grades and the high emphasis on weighted grade point average. I would really rather not go that route with my daughter. She has proven to me time and again that she can memorize. What I want is for her to develop other skills that take more time and go into a topic in depth rather than going for breadth of coverage.

 

I've read that many highly elite prep schools back east -- Andover, Exeter, Deerfield, and the like -- have moved entirely away from the whole AP curriculum and are offering topic seminars instead. You can see them on school websites under curriculum or course of study; they look pretty interesting to me, a valid and much more engaging alternative. I'm currently planning a few topic-based literature and history seminars for my daughter based on her input. Has anyone else done this? How do you go about it? What have your results been?

[JeanM]

Is anyone turning their backs on the whole AP class route and doing anything different? I have found myself extremely disenchanted with the domination of AP classes, their focus on memorization and testing, the superficial coverage at the expense of in-depth focus. AP has a huge influence, practically prescribing high school course choices for college-bound kids in California due to the UC system's pushing of weighted course grades and the high emphasis on weighted grade point average. I would really rather not go that route with my daughter. She has proven to me time and again that she can memorize. What I want is for her to develop other skills that take more time and go into a topic in depth rather than going for breadth of coverage.

 

I've read that many highly elite prep schools back east -- Andover, Exeter, Deerfield, and the like -- have moved entirely away from the whole AP curriculum and are offering topic seminars instead. You can see them on school websites under curriculum or course of study; they look pretty interesting to me, a valid and much more engaging alternative. I'm currently planning a few topic-based literature and history seminars for my daughter based on her input. Has anyone else done this? How do you go about it? What have your results been?

 

We're not to this point yet, since my dc are young, but I'm interested in this for future planning. :bigear:

 

What I'm thinking now is that there is a lot of value in having my dc take the AP exams, since that is a standard that colleges can understand. As homeschoolers though (assuming we are still homeschooling then), we can choose the curriculum and explore topics that are not necessarily on the exams.

[tajott]

I believe some classes are a good idea for some kids, but I don't believe it is a good education to teach to the test.However if a family is looking at it as a way to save money, then that seems like a good enough reason to pursue the credit.

 

I have one student who is now in college who did not do any APs, but has taken a CLEP and plans on 2 more this summer. I have one student who is now taking an AP Calculus course with a friend. I hope he gets some "free" credit for it. He is also taking a college level Physics course with this same friend (the friend's dad who is a college prof is teaching them). I will call it an AP Physics even if he doesn't end up taking the test.

 

The idea of offering seminars is intriguing and i will look into it. There are several things my ds is doing that would look good described as a seminar on a transcript .

 

Teresa

[EKS]

We will not be doing AP courses unless a particular course meets my son's goals in other ways. For example, he is interested in taking AP Computer Science online because it appears to be the most challenging course in that area available online. For the work we do at home, I will not be designing courses with AP test preparation as the goal, though we are/will be using college texts whenever it makes sense to do so.

 

That said, I do like some aspects of the AP program. I like that I know what I'm getting if I buy a text that is aligned with AP goals. I like that there is review and study material available that is standardized.

 

Thank you for the tip about the topic seminar approach. I'll take a look at those school websites that you mentioned.

[EKS]

What I'm thinking now is that there is a lot of value in having my dc take the AP exams, since that is a standard that colleges can understand. As homeschoolers though (assuming we are still homeschooling then), we can choose the curriculum and explore topics that are not necessarily on the exams.

 

The problem is that, for certain AP courses like biology, if you want to be fully prepared for the exam, there isn't time for anything else. At least that was the conclusion I came to when I was designing a biology course for my son. What is on the AP syllabus was covered in three semesters when I was in school.

[KAR120C]

Is anyone turning their backs on the whole AP class route and doing anything different?

I think they have their pros and cons just like anything... The one I actually kind of like is AP Statistics. It really does cover just about exactly what I want it to, so teaching DS statistics led right up to all the sorts of things he would need for the exam. He hasn't taken it yet -- we were going to do the statistics whether we did the exam or not (and he's young), but I think he could, and probably will eventually.

 

I like it because if he does take the exam, I have a solid objective measure of what he learned. Something he does entirely on his own without me even in the room. He has done projects that used different kinds of statistics, but there's no proof that I didn't walk him through it. kwim? I'd kind of like to have the AP score to say he didn't need my help... especially since he's young.

 

Now literature and history I'm not quite as thrilled with -- they just don't strike me as that interesting... and the foreign language ones are a maybe. But math and science I can kind of deal with. I wouldn't teach to the test specifically, but if we found ourselves in a position where he had done enough work to be "there" (or "almost there" and needing just a tiny bit of gap-filling) I wouldn't shy away from using the exams to prove it.

 

What I really see as a possibility is if DS ended up maybe "halfway there" on a topic, he might opt to jump through all the hoops and prep for the exam just so he can get it out of the way. It's not ideal, but if it's something outside his main interests it could get some general ed requirements out of the way and give him room for more work in his major. So while I don't really think that AP is necessarily a superior approach, I'm not going to throw it out altogether. I think we can take advantage of its benefits while not turning our whole plan over to that.

[Guest]

The problem is that, for certain AP courses like biology, if you want to be fully prepared for the exam, there isn't time for anything else. At least that was the conclusion I came to when I was designing a biology course for my son. What is on the AP syllabus was covered in three semesters when I was in school.

 

That's the kind of thing I am afraid of and want to avoid. Plus, the UC system seems to be moving away from offering course credits for AP; they say AP's main purpose now is to "prove the student is capable of handling college-level work." Basically now the main motivation for many, many kids to take APs is not to place out of freshman classes and so save money, but just to prove they can work at an advanced level in order to even be accepted. Most people -- including me -- are nervous about stepping too far away from what "colleges want." But I would think that there are myriad ways one can prove the quality and level of work without buying into the whole AP machine, and that homeschooling would be an area for exploring these options.

 

I am also very concerned about the way that "rigor" and difficulty level are being so exclusively identified with AP-style classes.

 

And finally, I'm wondering how much of the AP push is being maneuvered by the testing industry; SWB had a couple of entries on her education blog about the push to make tests for younger kids, more frequent testing, etc. AP has expanded enormously in the past five years and they have to be motivated to maximizing the number of test-takers; that's what their business is about.

[at the beach]

I'm glad you posted this. It's a dilemma for us. I want to make sure we can document what we are learning. My 13 yo is a high achiever up to this point. I think some AP's would be a good way to document what we've covered. However, I really dislike the whole AP push, too. I've thought about perhaps having her take some AP's in areas like foreign language, math, and science, and then doing something else for history and lit. Foreign language AP's are something you can't just jump into in the last year of school and that appeals to me, it takes years to be ready for an AP foreign language exam.

 

It is awful how the testing has gotten crazy out of hand. I mean, if you take the ACT and score really high, is it really going to matter if you have a boat load of AP's? I wish I knew the answer to that. It seems like it shouldn't matter. I think in the scheme of things, for a homeschooler, it is probably just as important to do things like volunteer, take a class at the local college, play a sport or something to show a school who you are.

 

I really wish we could just not have to worry about AP's, but I am afraid to completely not use them. It is interesting that exclusive private schools are shying away from them now. AP classes and tests are everywhere and everyone is taking them it seems. So, now, these schools are saying no, it's not the best approach, and I think that's true. Unfortunately, they're in the minority right now it seems.

 

I also agree with you that it seems "rigor" is associated with AP classes but there are so many other ways an education can be rigorous.

 

Maybe you should cross post on the high school board. I bet a lot of folks there would have interesting input on this.

Edited February 21, 2010 by Violet

[Guest]

I was thinking of cross-posting but couldn't figure out how -- can anyone enlighten me? These are the first boards I've ever participated on and it's taken me a good long time to just get into the swing of regular things like new threads and quotes. I'm over 50 and technologically challenged; what more can I say?

[EKS]

Just copy what you wrote here and post it on the High School Board. Make the title the same but put "Cross Post:" at the beginning.

[Nan in Mass]

Now, my older one went to a state school that was happy to have him without APs. But we made the decision before we knew that was where he was going. And we don't know where the youngest will go yet. If I were going to go the testing route, I think I would be much more interested an IB program. From my small amount of research, it looks like that is more thoughtful and less fact-full. We're rather sieve-brained, so doing APs doesn't seem like the best use of their time. I think we could put tons of time into APs and still not shine. I think it might be better to develop other aspects. We knew we needed outside validation of my son's work and a way to show colleges he could do advanced work so we did some community college classes. I plan on doing that with the youngest. This leaves us time to do some other interesting projects. My older one did multiple peace walks. He did a bit of anatomy that culminated a field trip to a cadaver lab. My younger one is currently working on models and learning enough that we are going to fill in with a bit of documentation on his own projects, some research, some field trips, and a properly documented project that we will send away to a shop to be made. He'll do something with weather, probably, and something with sailing. AP courses don't really match the way we've chosen to educated our children. We'd rather they do great books than AP lit or history. We'd rather they learn how to design their own experiments and be able to explore the things they are interested in than do AP science. Their education will be much more spotty and they won't get as thorough a grounding, but it will be more fun and they will be more interesting adults and hopefully (hopefully, hopefully) it will make them, or allow them to remain, more creative.

-Nan

[Tracy]

Most people think of AP classes/tests as a way to prepare for college, but many don't realize how it effects your education after you get to college. As someone who took several AP tests, I thought I would chime in here, FWIW. I took every AP class in high school that I could reasonably fit into my schedule, and I ended up with about a full semester of college credit. Coming from a poor family that wasn't going to help me pay for college, I thought this to be a great boon. However, this meant that most of my classes as a freshman were sophomore or junior level. While I got AP credit for the freshman level classes, my AP grades were not included in my GPA. Consequently, my entire GPA was made up of higher level classes, whereas my classmates without AP credit were able to include easier, lower level classes in their GPAs. Additionally, I had to take more higher level classes to complete my degree requirements.

 

I am glad that I took the AP tests, because it did save me a lot of money. But I do wish I had contemplated the consequences so that I could make the choice with my eyes open.

 

Tracy

[Jane in NC]

I responded to the OP in the cross post over on the high school board (here). In my post, I mention a thread that goes back to '08 in which a number of parents of older students chimed in on AP. This may be of interest.

 

Jane

[Quad Shot Academy]

Additionally, I had to take more higher level classes to complete my degree requirements.

 

I am glad that I took the AP tests, because it did save me a lot of money. But I do wish I had contemplated the consequences so that I could make the choice with my eyes open.

 

Tracy

 

Are you sure it saved you money? That is the issue I ran into when I was home schooled and trying to decide whether to CLEP it, AP it, CC it or keep doing the accredited correspondence course that I was doing. As I recall, all of them worked out to about the same price. While CLEP and AP would allow me to start at a higher level in college, I would have still had to take the same number of credits from the college to earn my degree, so still pay the same amount. I thought it more likely to fail the AP test, after spending all that money, than to fail a whole college class. I was also worried about jumping into college midstream, so I went the CC route.

 

I don't know what I will encourage my kids to do yet. At the time I will have to find out the price of the college they want to go to, the price of the CLEP and AP tests and if they will still have to pay for the credits. I am not thrilled with the CC route now. Socially, they are like high schools with most HS'ers attending.

[JennW in SoCal]

I may have to answer on the other board as well, but as long as I'm here....

 

I am against APs in principle because they are part of the whole "educational industrial comlex" that isn't interested in my child's education but in its own profit margin. The strangle hold these courses have over high school life in California is obscene. I think it is a huge disservice for these students to base their entire education on these exams -- where is the deeper thinking and analysis? The development of rhetoric skills? I know lots of ps high schoolers who take several of these courses a semester -- it is their entire academic life and the ONLY measure of academic rigor.

 

Having a science minded high schooler has made me question my stance as I wonder if he should take the AP bio or chem tests, or the SAT II subject tests, but I'm still leaning against them. I just don't think he will gain anything from them, and as we aren't independent homeschoolers he doesn't need the outside verification of his grades. (We homeschool through a public charter school.) I'm also looking into other avenues for him to stand out -- internships, volunteer work, travel. He reads extensively in science both articles and books, and listens to podcasts. It all adds depth to his course of study, makes him more well rounded. I also believe he will need to follow his college department's course of study as they design their freshman courses specifically to prepare students for the higher level courses.

[babysparkler]

I responded to the OP in the cross post over on the high school board (here). In my post, I mention a thread that goes back to '08 in which a number of parents of older students chimed in on AP. This may be of interest.

 

Jane

 

Thank you! How thoughtful of you :D!

[JeanM]

Are you sure it saved you money? That is the issue I ran into when I was home schooled and trying to decide whether to CLEP it, AP it, CC it or keep doing the accredited correspondence course that I was doing. As I recall, all of them worked out to about the same price. While CLEP and AP would allow me to start at a higher level in college, I would have still had to take the same number of credits from the college to earn my degree, so still pay the same amount. I thought it more likely to fail the AP test, after spending all that money, than to fail a whole college class. I was also worried about jumping into college midstream, so I went the CC route.

 

 

I'm not the person who posted that it saved them money, but I'm certain that AP classes saved me money when I was in college. I think it all depends on the circumstances. I attended a very expensive private school. Between the AP credits that I got and taking a few classes at a different school one summer, I graduated in 3 years instead of 4. That one year of tuition + room and board was way, way more expensive than the cost of the AP exams and the summer classes combined.

 

On the other hand, I'm not sure what route my dc will take. I'm not sure that I want them to do everything the way I did.

 

Jean

[Guest]

Thanks to everyone who responded. I can see that AP classes would suit a certain kind of child with a particular educational philosophy; but I still tend to think of AP in terms of restricted learning, having to memorize a ton of informational factoids or analyze specific quotes out of a larger context. And one question I continually ask myself is, what is a student NOT doing because of the AP load? How is she able to follow up on areas of a course that pique her interest if the pace of the course moves relentlessly on to cover what will be on the test? How is she learning flexibility of approach or creative lateral thinking if AP classes are prescribing a particular way to learn -- which becomes the only way to learn if a student piles them on?

 

One reason I like TWTM is its turn toward individual interests in later high school: allowing a child to specialize, to devote extended amounts of time to research, depth of study, and a longer paper -- although I don't think a paper should be the required outcome. There should be options according to what best fits the topic, or an experience (Nan's son who peacewalks, building a boat and sailing it, a huge volunteer project, etc.). But I have found it hard to hold on to that vision of flexibility and individuality given the pervasiveness of AP culture and the fear that "good" or elite colleges will not accept kids without the courses.

 

It's good to step back every so often and question elements of education that we take for granted or find ourselves having been caught up in. One thing I have decided after thinking about these responses is that my daughter will be reading books on testing in education in her early high school years: books on the history of the SAT, the admissions process, a couple of books on "overachieving" kids who go the pressurized route, and books about people who have chosen to do otherwise -- and perhaps threads like this one. I don't want to choose for her; but I don't want her following a particular course of action without knowing the pros and cons.

[Nan in Mass]

I thought I might add here that every college, alternative or traditional, that we spoke with wanted to see SAT scores. They said they would take into account that my son doesn't test well, but that they wanted him to take it. So unless you are going the community college route, you probably will have to play the testing game a bit, maybe not with the APs or SAT2s, but at least with the SATs (or probably ACTs, but they aren't as common here so we never discussed them). Some of the schools we spoke with were non-SAT ones, but not for homeschoolers. Just don't want anyone to get the idea that we managed without any testing at all...

-Nan

[Nan in Mass]

Right - that is what is haunting me about the youngest, who might be able to do APs without spending an innordiante amount of time on them: What will he not be doing? The time commitment is still going to be huge.

-Nan