TOG - Deeper? Can you explain that further for me?

[Cynful]

Hope this isn't a silly question. I'm currently using Sonlight and we've been happy with it for the most part. I like the discussion questions and the vocabulary in the guides. I've always been intrigued/drawn to TOG for some reason though. I've heard it said many times here that TOG allows you to go deeper and have deeper discussions with your children. Can you explain how that is different than Sonlight? I've not quite understood.

 

Thanks in advance,

[TracyP]

I am using TOG and love it. However, my kids are young and I have never used Sonlight so I hope someone else can be more helpful.

 

I think the best thing to do is to download one of the 3 week samples. I think there are two to choose from - or get both. You can get an idea of the reading assignments to compare to what you are doing. Skim through the Teacher Notes until you get to the discussions for an idea what those look like.

[Mama Lynx]

I have not used Sonlight, either.

 

TOG provides the parent with pages and pages of information and notes, so that *you* can be absolutely prepared for the discussion. Then they provide enough discussion questions for an hour or two - some questions are to check comprehension, but many are designed to get the student thinking about the issues, and making connections.

 

The discussion questions are what sold me on TOG. My husband wouldn't need them - he'd be able to come up with questions like that on the fly. I can't. I need the help :)

[Cynful]

Thank you for the replies. I downloaded the samples from Year 2 and I'll look over those. I'd love to hear from anyone else who might have used Sonlight also so they could give me an idea of how TOG goes deeper. I'm guessing from what Mama Lynx said, TOG just has much better questions and not just comprehension which is what Sonlight appears to be?

[siloam]

Thank you for the replies. I downloaded the samples from Year 2 and I'll look over those. I'd love to hear from anyone else who might have used Sonlight also so they could give me an idea of how TOG goes deeper. I'm guessing from what Mama Lynx said, TOG just has much better questions and not just comprehension which is what Sonlight appears to be?

 

There are several ways in which TOG is different, that you could say makes it deeper.

 

First of all at the R level it focuses on original texts where SL purposely chooses books that are engaging regardless of their academic level. I don't know if you have caught some of the chatter lately, but I have seen several threads here talking about how many of the books SL uses are not at academically demanding. It is kinda like they hit a Jr. High level and stay there. Now there are exceptions, especially in Core 400, but there are enough of them to make people think twice about if SL is academically advanced enough.

 

From what I have seen of the discussion questions in SL (which isn't a lot at the High School level-I did cores Pre-K 3/4, K , 1 and 2 and own the IG for 3, 4 and 100) they are comprehension questions. In TOG their are some questions that are discussion questions and there are thinking questions, designed to get the child to think deeper to make connections.

 

In my mind another big plus was the integration of topics. You don't just look at history you also look how philosophies were introduced and how that changed the culture, the art, the literature, the government. This is why I really adore TOG.

 

For Literature they also include worksheets which are sometimes basic literature analysis (plot, characters, ect...), but can also be intense. I remember the one on Gulliver Travels in particular because they have the student break down each of the characters/groups of people and then show how they represent the different governmental/societal groups of that day. It was fascinating! I probably read over the answers for an hour. Nor did I realize before TOG that the book was originally written to be a spoof on the government of the time.

 

TOG also includes Church history in depth, as you study history, and missionaries as well, so it covers everything in Core 200, just in context of the history, philosophy and government of those times. In my mind just learning about Gladys Alyward at the same time you learn about the government and history of the Chinese makes it deeper. But I really love seeing those cause and effect type situations in history.

 

Art History, Music history and science again are also covered with in the context it developed. These are not the super in depth studies that the history is. They hit on major movements and major people. You can add to them if you like. For example we adore Mike Venezia books, and he covers more artists than TOG does, so I just add them where they fit. Not a big deal.

 

The difficult thing with TOG is that it is deep and some people find it very difficult to keep up with the depth, especially in all the different areas. I personally will probably end up taking 6 years to do a complete TOG rotation because that is the only way we will be able to manage the workload required to go to the depth that TOG offers. You also shouldn't get stuck on having to use R level just because a child is High School age. You are in charge and know what your child can handle. If you need to jump around between R and D level to make it work, then do so. If you do 80% of R level it is considered AP, so it makes sense that it will be too much for some kids to do in its entirety. You can just pick the things at the R level that are important to you and do D level for the things that aren't.

 

I also second going through the 3 week sample BEFORE buying. I have seen so many people buy TOG, and then sell it before they even opened it. Keep in mind that one year of TOG takes up 4 3" binders. Just the volume of information overwhelms people.

 

Heather

[Cynful]

Heather, I was hoping you'd see this and reply. I knew you had used both and I've read so many of your posts.

 

The way you explained it just confirms for me why I'd like it. I think I'll stick with my plan of finishing Core 3 and Core 4, maybe Core 5, and then move on to TOG. I knew it would be alot in "volume" as I've looked at a friend's Classic before but that doesn't bother me. Besides, if I start buying it now ;) , I can get all nice and cozy with it before we are even ready for it.

 

If anyone else has any opinions, I'd love to hear them also.

 

Thanks again,

[Cynful]

Oh, Heather, I saw in another post of yours that one of the things liked better about TOG was the mapping. How is it different than SL?

 

Thanks,

[siloam]

Oh, Heather, I saw in another post of yours that one of the things liked better about TOG was the mapping. How is it different than SL?

 

Thanks,

 

With TOG you have a specific topic each week that you are covering vs. the continual flow of history with SL. So if the topics one week is the beginning of WWI then your mapping will be of the world before WWI. With SL you would map any places and countries mentioned in the reading, but with TOG you start with a blank map and map the whole area (whether mentioned or not), including the oceans, rivers and mountain ranges.

 

At the LG and UG level they only do main cities and stick mostly to countries (big idea) and with the D and R they get fairly detailed. Then a few weeks later when you cover the end of WWI you will do another map of countries ended up after the war was over. The older students even get to do an overlay map if they choose, where you use clear overlays and can lift it up to see the before or put the overlay down and see exactly how it changes. I must admit I can't wait to do overlay maps-too cool! (I am such a nerd.)

 

Does that make sense? With SL you are always building on what you have done before, with TOG each week stands alone. Practically I had a hard time getting to the SL mapping. Either the kids did it and erased half of what we had done, or I did it and we lost some of the educational value. Most of the time I just pointed it out on the map. It was better than nothing, better than what I was exposed to in PS, but the way TOG mapping is laid out works better for the way I think. Having individual maps that are ready to go (I don't not do well searching for my own as I spend way too much time finding the perfect one) and check boxes of what needs to be mapped (I have a strong emotions towards check boxes :001_wub:). The more consistent work getting to do it themselves work better for the kids. They ended up enjoying mapping-it is one of their favorite parts of hs now. Why knew? :001_huh:

 

By the way one of the biggest transitions in getting used to TOG is being Ok with the weekly focus vs. a continual flow of history. I actually didn't like the weekly focus at first, but now I don't think I would go back. The unit approach what allows me to substitute books so easily. At first you might find it awkward. For example after covering WWI&II TOG chooses to go off and cover the rest of the world, so we spend a week covering India, then one in China, then Korea and the Korean War and later the whole middle east. When you cover a country like that you often step back a ways in time to the last time TOG covered it and play catch up from their point of view (so both WWI and WWII will be mentioned again). That repeat drives some people nuts, but I like how you are also learning about their culture and sort of see things through a different perspective. Some people find it disjointed, so that is something else to think about/prepare for.

 

Heather

 

[momee]

What might help is to find a sample of the week in TOG that covers what you're learning in SL. If you tell me what you're studying and how you're doing it with SL I'd be glad to pm you the assignments for TOG to see exactly what is so different. Using Year 2 at the rhetoric level and SL Core 200 we did alot more work in TOG. SL left us unprepared in terms of composition help each week (I didn't like their assignments at all) and the mapwork, as Heather said was hit and miss in SL.

 

One big thing I haven't seen mentioned here I'd like to bring up if I may.

 

When considering the two, really, really! consider your investment.

Time and financial. With TOG it's big.

 

For each student:

ordering books (from intrnt or lib), printing worksheets if using, printing maps, determining which (if choosing) questions students will answer

For your prep time to teach:

reading teacher's notes, holding discussions for dialectic and rhetoric for each! subject (wldvw, lit, history, gov't, philos, etc)

 

This is huge. Yes, TOG is amazing. Yes, it teaches the children at their levels, it's a help to mom learning too, multi students, multi subjects, etc.

But it's all geared towards what you're learning in history.

With SL it's not always that way (there are lighter, off topic books scheduled in).

 

It's also expensive! That's one of the main downers for us. EACH week I'm having to find a new book for my ug's and most times for my dialectics. That's alot of money, on top of the money spent on the spines and the program itself. I have ug. dial, and rhetoric and we've been using TOG for five years now.

 

I think TOG is wonderful. That said, I'm on my third time leaving it because we simply can't afford it right now. I spend about $18 per week on books for TOG average, and with dh out of a full time job, it's not prudent.

Sorry to be so negative but it's a big consideration many don't take into account.

 

 

BTW Cynthia, I just saw on another post you are using AO. That's what I'm using the rest of the year with my younger two and still holding onto some TOG for my oldest. Curricula - ack. The worst part of homeschooling don't ya think? :)

Edited December 31, 2009 by momee

[lovemykids]

 

 

It's also expensive! That's one of the main downers for us. EACH week I'm having to find a new book for my ug's and most times for my dialectics. That's alot of money, on top of the money spent on the spines and the program itself. I have ug. dial, and rhetoric and we've been using TOG for five years now.

 

I think TOG is wonderful. That said, I'm on my third time leaving it because we simply can't afford it right now. I spend about $18 per week on books for TOG average, and with dh out of a full time job, it's not prudent.

Sorry to be so negative but it's a big consideration many don't take into account.

 

 

 

 

Hijacking...:)

 

See, this is the part that I do not understand. I hear other people saying that TOG is not book specific and that books scheduled in TOG can easily be replaced with library books. So which is it?

Also, what about high school? How do you work the credits? Does your high schooler have to do all of the work to receive credit? What if I want to use TOG in an LCC style? Is that even possible for high school?

[Cynful]

BTW Cynthia, I just saw on another post you are using AO. That's what I'm using the rest of the year with my younger two and still holding onto some TOG for my oldest. Curricula - ack. The worst part of homeschooling don't ya think? :)

 

Yes, I've had a love/hate affair with all three (TOG, Sonlight and AO) - I adore the scheduling/lack of planning involved with Sonlight and I love the selections and higher book levels and just the premise of AO. I was hoping TOG might be sort of in between? Perhaps you can tell me if it is.

 

I've found I definitely need more of an "outline/schedule" than AO provides or something, I can't place my finger on it exactly. Sonlight, I really do love and could see us continuing through High School for it, but I keep hearing how TOG is "deeper" hence my big question here. :)

 

We are on the Revolution in Sonlight; just starting it actually. If you have anything you could send my way, that would be great.

 

It seems so many of the programs have overlapping books, spines, etc. My head just spins sometimes. The tough part is half the time I want EASY (for me) and half the time I love planning. <sigh>

 

Also, to Heather, thanks so much for the comparison on the mapping.

 

Thanks,

[Cynful]

Also, what about high school? How do you work the credits? Does your high schooler have to do all of the work to receive credit? What if I want to use TOG in an LCC style? Is that even possible for high school?

 

I can't remember who on here does it, but I've seen them post about how the "do" TOG LCC style. I'm sure I saw it recently in one of the TOG posts or at least maybe a search of it will pop up. I'll see what I can find.

 

For the books part, I "think" (big guess actually) that you can easily switch out books if you want, however, then you have to come up with your own questions/worksheets, etc. for the book. I get the feeling that many use the actual books recommended for just that reason. Please tell me if I've got that wrong. :001_unsure:

[momee]

your quote:

See, this is the part that I do not understand. I hear other people saying that TOG is not book specific and that books scheduled in TOG can easily be replaced with library books. So which is it?

 

I think you'll get varying answers on that one if you read back through other posts on this subject. For me, I want to use the maps and the worksheets that come with TOG, that's why I picked TOG, right? :) Otherwise it turns into a book list and I can go to WTM for that, really. I guess from the above quote the "easily" part is relative.

 

To explain, if you choose a different book you can't always use the worksheets. Sometimes, but not always. For older kids the thinking and accountability questions don't always match up if you sub a book. Give a kid going through puberty a different book and they spend a day looking for the answer to a question that isn't addressed in their reading and it's a nasty evening for mom! (Ask me how I know that one.) That was our beef with classic but that's a whole 'nother hijack :tongue_smilie:.

 

It's a juggling game to substitute. One that most moms I know don't have the time/energy to do in the middle of a unit of teaching. At the onset it might be possible if you set aside time to plan each unit or year out and do the research for what books you have/need. This would entail reading the worksheets/questions to be sure they're addressed in the book you've chosen. Who has that kind of time?! Make sense?

 

then you asked...

Also, what about high school? How do you work the credits? Does your high schooler have to do all of the work to receive credit? What if I want to use TOG in an LCC style? Is that even possible for high school?

 

You'll have to do a forum search on that one. There are documents on the TOG site that explain all this in detail. Short answer, no. You don't HAVE to do anything ;) They do tell you though, on the loom specifically, what has to be done to be considered credit worthy. Looking at what our local high school considers a credit though (history through film or something like that...) I think you could pare down TOG's recs a bit and still be in good shape, just my 2cents.

 

Never heard of LCC so can't help you there.

[momee]

To Cynthia,

you said

I adore the scheduling/lack of planning involved with Sonlight and I love the selections and higher book levels and just the premise of AO. I was hoping TOG might be sort of in between? Perhaps you can tell me if it is.

 

Hmm. I don't know about that one. I too loved that ready made schedule in SL until we got ahead in one book and behind in another :001_huh:.

 

The higher book levels in AO could be a bad thing for us too if it's too hard and over their heads (my personal concern with books like Robin Hood by Pyle and Pilgrims Progress). The thing I an looking to improve upon in our schooling is the variety of subjects.

 

We are tired of so much being tied to history. The pace is just too much also. I love the idea of kids studying the great artists but with TOG it goes so fast (mainly now through the Renaissance. I can't even keep who's who straight we're speeding through!) With AO we'll take art appreciation as a subject. That's more my speed for this season.

 

TOG somewhere in between? I guess so. It's a schedule, but more flexibility than SL. There is a whole page (very nice) of alternate readings for you if you want to sub or supplement. In the rhetoric level, there is no concern as to rigor regarding book choices. The selections are mostly college level, I've heard from hs lit teachers I've asked.

AO is fewer selections studied deeper whereas TOG is more works covered quicker. If you do a comparison (I have) there are alot of the same books in WTM and TOG. Not so much with TOG and AO.

HTH

Edited December 31, 2009 by momee

[choirfarm]

If I look at your signature, then you are using Core 3 with your 9yo and 12yo?? Gulp, that seems like a young core for a 12yo... 7th grade??? TOG would be a HUGE step up. You said you were on the Revolutionary era. Well my 14yo is doing rhetoric level and my 12yo is doing dialectic.

 

I looked back at Year 2 unit 4, which is where the Revolutionary era would be. My dialectic student (who is 12 and who actually read all this at 11) would be reading 5 chapters from This Country of Ours, 36 pages from George Washington's World, 25 pages from Why Not Lafayette, and three chapters of Joahnny Tremain for literature. The readaloud for me was 5 chapters of Carry On, Mr. Bowditch. There are two different books for arts and activities, which we didn't do. And then he had a reading in The Church in History.

 

My rhetoric student would have read p. 208-241 and 252-277 out of The Revolutionary Period, some out of the President's Fact Book, 4 chapters of Yankee Doodle Boy, pp. 77-197 in Gulliver's Travels (original version) and My Theme is Freedom if you are doing the Government elective. In this particular week there is no church history for him.

 

That is all reading for ONE WEEK. Here are a few of the questions for dialectic: Outline the major events of the Saratoga Campaign. Why was the Hudson River critical for the British to control. (Those are examples of 6 accountablity quesions.) For thinking questions they have several with these being a few: How did the war for American Indpepence become a world war? Why did Benedict ARnold betray his own country? What factors contibuted to his betrayal.

 

There is a geography assignment for dialectic where they are labeling 6 battles as well as 20 other places important to the war. They have lots of timeline dates of battles.

 

For rhetoric here is an example of an accountablity question: What was Washington's overall stategy for winning the Revolutionary war after 1776. What important role did Washington's intelligence network of spies play in the Revolutionary War? How was Washington the master of "disinformation." List specific examples from your reading that support your answer. Thinking question examples: Why were the slaves not freed during the Revolutionary War years given the ideals of the Declaration of Independence. or France supported the Americans in their rebellion against their lawful sovereign. Why is this surprising, given France's governmental stucture.

 

The Johnny Tremain worksheet had my dialectic student give examples of setting, character description, man vs. man conflict, simile and metaphor from 4 different chapters.

 

The Literature for rhetoric is complicated, here is one questions. Look up the following pages and find all the places where Gulliver mentions eyes or sight (either his or others) then she lists tons of pages. Suppose for a moment that eyes and sight in Gulliver's Travels are symbolic. What secondary meaning can you find in these references to eyes? Remember that eyes and seeing are usually tied to the idea of moral or spiritual insight.

 

 

There are tons of questions in rhetoric level for art/music as well as governent, philosophy and church history. For 9th grade I've done the history, geography, literature and church history. It has been a ton. I did Core 3 and 4 in one year when my boys 3rd/5th then we did Sonlight Core 5 when they were 4th/6th. Then the next year we did TOG year 1 for 5th/7th and they both read the dialectic material, but the younger one didn't do the questions. The next year we did year 2 6th/ 8th and the 6th grader had to attempt to answer the questions. This year for year 3 he is answering them completely and my oldest has moved up to rhetoric. There is absolutely no comparison, none to the depth in TOG as compared to Sonlight. I was always tweaking Sonlight and trying to add depth and literary analysis and such so it is actually less work for me but tough none the less. If you like the open and go of Sonlight, then don't change. I never used the Sonlight IG as written and their questions were superficial. I mean. I did enjoy it, but as they moved into dialectic level I wanted something more.

 

Christine

[siloam]

Hijacking...:)

 

See, this is the part that I do not understand. I hear other people saying that TOG is not book specific and that books scheduled in TOG can easily be replaced with library books. So which is it?

Also, what about high school? How do you work the credits? Does your high schooler have to do all of the work to receive credit? What if I want to use TOG in an LCC style? Is that even possible for high school?

 

You get both.

 

Think of a house. You have a weekly topic, the frame. You have mapping, timeline figures, vocab, crafts and such that wrap around that topic. That would be the sheet rock, siding, roof, ect...

 

Then you have three basic options. You can have the house that is ready to move into, the house that will be ready next week, or the house that will be ready in a month and you get to choose the carpet color, counter top and type of windows used because it isn't done yet.

 

The house that is ready to move into would the the first choice books they list, found here on the the left of the pages. This would be similar to using SL because you don't have to make a bunch of choices. Not exactly like SL because it isn't broken down into daily reading portions, and you still have to decide if you want to use any of the In-Depth material, or drop one of the other pieces (some people don't do one piece like Fine Arts, or Worldview).

 

The second choice, the house that is going to be ready in a week would be using the alternate list. It is almost like a house that is ready to go, but might cause you some difficulty. That would be the right hand side of the page I linked above. Some times there will be discussion questions answered by the main choices, that aren't covered by the alternates. To some people that is a big deal and other people just skip them and move on. Not quite as convenient, but nice if you are attached to a specific title like SOTW.

 

The third choice, the one where you get to customize the whole thing to a T, but you also have to put in the time to make the custom decisions. That would be when you decide to scrap both the main and alternate choices that TOG provides and instead to with a book of your choice. Again the discussion questions might not always fit exactly (most will, but not all), but you get to use the author or text you prefer or if you use the library you use a book you can check out instead of buying one. The framework of the house is still in place and still works with the substituted text, it just requires more work.

 

The one exception to this would be the Literature. Generally it doesn't overly matter if you buy a different publisher (unlike with SL where your page numbers would then be all off), but if you want to use the Literature Worksheets they are written to specific books. You can just decide to use something that is not on their main or alternate list, unless you are willing to drop the worksheet for that week.

 

Make sense?

 

I haven't followed the talk about credits for TOG much, but I know if you do 80% of the work it is considered AP, so obviously they don't have to do it all to get credit. Given there are different topics obviously we are also talking more than just a history credit too. I do know that it is covered in the TOG material, and that both the gals who are on the LooseThreads yahoo group and Marcia herself on the TOG forums will answer those types of questions.

 

Heather

 

 

[choirfarm]

For my lower grammar girl, I haven't bought any of the books. I've used the ones I have that are on the topic. Since there are no discussion questions for lower or upper grammar there is no problem. Instead, they discuss projects and crafts you can do to make it fun. Once you get to dialectic/rhetoric the questions make a difference. If I don't have a resource (I realized that I didn't have Wild West because it was out of stock and our library had it and I didn't get it.), then I often have tons of other resources. I just pull and have my dialectic child read them and try to answer the questions. I tell them to do their best. If they can't find it, then I lecture. Then they tell me what they find interesting in their readings. So it is both. Also, I love, love love the discussion outlines and answers. They are invaluable. That said, year 1 was hard with dialectic. The outlines didn't follow their questions. It has gotten better and better each year. I'm hoping they will revise a little when they get back around to year 1. Year 3 has worked really, really, well.

 

Christine

[TracyP]

I'm hoping they will revise a little when they get back around to year 1. Year 3 has worked really, really, well

 

This just came up on the TOG forum and they plan to get started on revising year 1 as soon as they finish year 4. So maybe end of 2010.

[melmichigan]

Anyone care to venture how much they spend in a year on TOG? I don't plan on using SL for high school and am looking at other options. I can look in the catalog and say SL cost x dollars for the year. I don't see anywhere that I can do that with TOG. Is $20 a week a true estimate and for how many weeks? I assume that is above the core costs?

[Cynful]

If I look at your signature, then you are using Core 3 with your 9yo and 12yo?? Gulp, that seems like a young core for a 12yo... 7th grade??? TOG would be a HUGE step up. You said you were on the Revolutionary era. Well my 14yo is doing rhetoric level and my 12yo is doing dialectic.

 

Actually, that's part of my problem. Well not problem, but my son has had learning delays and also has dyslexia. We held him back in preschool so he did 3 years of it. Basically, he'd be 6th grade if we had kept him in school. However, he's been no way ready to do grade level work at all. He's only just recently made some huge strides in his reading level - finally on a solid 4th/5th grade level and its come hard for him. He's making huge strides lately and he's ready for some more challenges. Core 3 is actually quite good for him unfortunately, though slightly more of a challenge wouldn't hurt. I actually am reading TCOO to him now. I've been slowly passing over the readings to him as he's getting better. He's ready to "catch up" in a way though I question how fast he'll be able to do that.

 

My daughter on the other hand is more advanced - so, the major plus for me, is that I've kept them on the same level and just adjusted where needed. She hates too many details, he thrives on them. She'll get there though.

 

I think TOG would actually be just almost too much for him right this minute, not just the reading, but also the depth, however I think in another year or two, he'd be quite ready and he really likes discussions. We discuss all our books now all the time but only in an informal way.

 

Anyway, all of this discuss has been fantastic for me and I thank everyone for their replies. It helps immensely. My thoughts are to continue and finish Cores 3 and 4, maybe do 5 and then move on to TOG - that may be his high school. That would be missing Cores 6 & 7 but I thought that would work well since TOG would cover that anyway. I'll never get DS to where everyone else is just because of time, but we school year round and for the first time ever, he's asking me if we can do more work and more school weeks in order to work harder. I've been waiting for that - it works so much better when he's on the same page. :)

 

Thank you again everyone!!!!

[Guest]

Anyone care to venture how much they spend in a year on TOG? I don't plan on using SL for high school and am looking at other options. I can look in the catalog and say SL cost x dollars for the year. I don't see anywhere that I can do that with TOG. Is $20 a week a true estimate and for how many weeks? I assume that is above the core costs?

 

I am no pro since we have not started yet but we purchased Year Plans 1-3 and this is how you would go about calculating your costs, I feel.

 

1) The cost for the Year Plan. Here the cost may vary depending on what you want. You could still get some printed copies that are still in stock. You could get DE and then print the pages you need (that's what we will be doing) or you can get DE and have a printed copy made and shipped to you also. So here the cost depends on what you choose.

 

2) You have to decide what supplements if any you want to get. We got all the supplements for Year 1 except for Government since we are only in the LG level and we also got Writing Aids. So again you have to look at what supplements you want.

 

3) If you register for ordering and you get a logon id and password you can go to the Resource List and get from the system the recommended books with their prices. Now again, this is your choice. Do you want to purchase all the books? Some for example just purchase those that are used extensively and will not bother with books that are used for only one Unit and one or two weeks.

 

That's the difference with SL I find where purchasing is concerned. Since you cater the program to your needs/ wants you determine the cost. HTH!

Edited January 1, 2010 by Guest

[Guest]

Anyone care to venture how much they spend in a year on TOG? I don't plan on using SL for high school and am looking at other options. I can look in the catalog and say SL cost x dollars for the year. I don't see anywhere that I can do that with TOG. Is $20 a week a true estimate and for how many weeks? I assume that is above the core costs?

 

Just to add that $20/ week for 36 weeks (4 units X 9 weeks) sounds about right to me for the Year Plan, supplements and books but I don't know how things are at the high school level and the other Year Plans which from what I have been reading have more books than Year 1 that we are currently looking at starting in the fall.

Edited January 1, 2010 by Guest

[siloam]

Anyone care to venture how much they spend in a year on TOG? I don't plan on using SL for high school and am looking at other options. I can look in the catalog and say SL cost x dollars for the year. I don't see anywhere that I can do that with TOG. Is $20 a week a true estimate and for how many weeks? I assume that is above the core costs?

 

I don't keep track of TOG specifically, and I get a lot of books off of Bookmooch and Paperback swap. Then I also buy used off of Half (because they combine shipping from the same person) and frequent our local Goodwill where most books are $2-1, so it is still a decent chunk, but not horrible. I get a little money each paycheck and spend it as we go.

 

Heather

[lovemykids]

Okay, it’s very clear to me now. I want to thank each and every one of you who took the time to respond to my hijacker question.

:tongue_smilie:

Siloam, (Heather)

Yeah, it’s unfortunate, but I am not sure I can afford a TOG home, in any stage of readiness, which presents a problem. I loved your analogy though. It seems to me that if the reason I want to buy TOG is to cut down on preparation time, but yet, I am going to have do most of the work in coming up with alternate discussions, etc., that it just might not be a practical purchase. Since I do not feel like I can afford the “move right in, it’s all included†package, maybe it’s not a good fit for our family. I haven’t fully decided yet. Also, I would need to secularize it, making even more work for myself. Taking all of that into consideration, I might as well build my own house. Ideally, I would like to build my own house, from the foundation on up, but I do not have the time to finish high school plans for my oldest. There just are not enough hours in the day, and I am stressed out with too many responsibilities and personal problems as it is.

Maybe I’ll register at the TOG site and play around with the cart, just to see if it would be an affordable venture. I like to buy used books as well, and I already possibly own some of them, so we’ll see. :)

Thank you for the literature tip, that’s something to take into consideration. Oh, and really, 80% equals an AP class? Amazing. It’s also nice to know where to find help with the yahoo groups if I decide to go the TOG route. Which reminds me of my other question about LCC; I guess I could go ask at the LCC yahoo group. Duh, Thanks!

 

 

[HappyCrazyMama]

This just came up on the TOG forum and they plan to get started on revising year 1 as soon as they finish year 4. So maybe end of 2010.

Where did you see this? I'm looking for the thread. Thanks!

[siloam]

Siloam, (Heather)

Yeah, it’s unfortunate, but I am not sure I can afford a TOG home, in any stage of readiness, which presents a problem. I loved your analogy though. It seems to me that if the reason I want to buy TOG is to cut down on preparation time, but yet, I am going to have do most of the work in coming up with alternate discussions, etc., that it just might not be a practical purchase. Since I do not feel like I can afford the “move right in, it’s all included†package, maybe it’s not a good fit for our family. I haven’t fully decided yet. Also, I would need to secularize it, making even more work for myself. Taking all of that into consideration, I might as well build my own house. Ideally, I would like to build my own house, from the foundation on up, but I do not have the time to finish high school plans for my oldest. There just are not enough hours in the day, and I am stressed out with too many responsibilities and personal problems as it is.

 

 

I am glad to have TOG myself, but there is no way I have the time to do it as scheduled. It is after all just history. You can use critical thinking products, science or debate with which to do teach the thinking/analytical piece, without it being a burden. I love history, TOG, WTM, SL (yes all of them) but sometimes I think they all put way to much emphasis on a topic that no one is that concerned about academically. I say walk away without guilt.

 

Heather

[Cynful]

I love history, TOG, WTM, SL (yes all of them) but sometimes I think they all put way to much emphasis on a topic that no one is that concerned about academically. I say walk away without guilt.

 

Heather

 

I ponder over this myself. My goal has always been the 3 R's as top priority. I figured TOG would work for the reading part and then add the gravy of history, fine arts, etc. Writing would work some with TOG but I plan to finish Writing Tales and then move to Classical Writing. Math just continues on. I've also added Latin and will also add more Logic. Science, again, I will continue but consider gravy. Will TOG work this way or will it be a waste for me in this plan?

[melmichigan]

I have to be careful that history doesn't overwhelm us at the expense of other subjects. I have taken a lot of time to look at all the curriculums, SL, TOG, HOD, BF, HO. The one thing I find is that you can line them all up next to each other and there is a core set of books that are common to most. The premise is the same, it's all in how they get there. I have to adapt everything I use to some extent so it becomes a matter of what is easiest to adapt for your family.

 

Thanks for the help!

[Guest]

Honestly, I don't think that it can be overwhelming if you package it well. I am a firm believer of the phrase "repetition is the mother of skill". I was always a mathy/ science oriented kid. In Greece (I did my middle and high school years there) we always had 12 to 13 subjects going each semester. Unfortunately for me though, since I jumped into Greek school in grade 5 (and the textbooky approach in the school system didn't help either), while trying to keep up and fill in gaps I studied subjects like history and geography just to get the grades. I memorized, always did well in my exams (I was a straight A kid) and then promptly hit the delete button at the end of the year to free up space for next years content :p. It bothered me for many years and still bothers me to this day because both the countries that I love (Canada and Greece) have such a rich history that I can’t remember. So, with my family I have decided to follow a different approach. We add what we can and as much as we can. We have the luxury of homeschooling, and learning while homeschooling can happen all hours of the night or day. That's how we school in our home. Since Adrian was a baby and was the driving force behind his learning I/ we always took the time to answer his questions and explain things to him no matter where we were or time of day. We still do that today, even though our studies are not always child driven. We want him to have a broad knowledge of the different subjects no matter what he decides to follow and of course we will follow the same with Malcolm. While I agree with Heather that:

 

"I think they all put way to much emphasis on a topic that no one is that concerned about academically."

 

History explains many things about where we came from and where we are headed and so not putting emphasis, I feel, may make us complacent with what we have while forgetting about the struggles and sweat of our fathers to bring us where we are today. Just my thoughts!

Edited January 1, 2010 by Guest

[2squared]

It is after all just history. I love history, TOG, WTM, SL (yes all of them) but sometimes I think they all put way to much emphasis on a topic that no one is that concerned about academically. I say walk away without guilt.

 

Heather

 

Thank you for this. I was beginning to think I was the only homeschooler in the world with this same perspective.

[siloam]

I ponder over this myself. My goal has always been the 3 R's as top priority. I figured TOG would work for the reading part and then add the gravy of history, fine arts, etc. Writing would work some with TOG but I plan to finish Writing Tales and then move to Classical Writing. Math just continues on. I've also added Latin and will also add more Logic. Science, again, I will continue but consider gravy. Will TOG work this way or will it be a waste for me in this plan?

 

Marie (4evercanucks) and I are very much on the same page. In fact there is a possibility I won't even get back to 20th century history before my oldest graduates. :001_huh: I hope that as my ds gets a little older we can pick up the pace a little, so she can make it, but I have decided that if she doesn't that I can live with that.

 

I would love to be able to do 4 year cycles...to be able to do it all, but my first problem is that my interest in history outweighs my kids interest, so if I try to read much more than 15-20 mins at a time I have lost them all. Generally I keep it to about 3 pages in an encyclopedia or we might do a whole picture book. Right now we are covering the Great Depression and I have a couple history spines: A Child's Encyclopedia of American History which is an overview and Children's History of the 20th Century which is like a scrap book of headlines for each year of the 20th century. Three is two days of reading between those two. Then Herber Hoover is scheduled, so I bought Mike Venezia's book on him (my kids like MV books) and I have an encyclopedia of First Lady's that I will use to cover Lue Henry Hoover with. Those two are another day. Last I bought the Kit (American Girl) history text. That one is taking us about 10 days to finish. Given we hs 4 days a week that ends up being a total of 3 weeks and a day to comfortably cover the information. At the same time we spend about 10 mins a day cutting out there 1920's paper dolls for our craft. Right now we are reading a Sisters in Time book for our read aloud, but often we use books not related to history. The last one we did was a cat book because my family is obsessed with cats. :D

 

The slower pace makes TOG more affordable, because I never finish a year plan in a year.

 

Now I haven't started the discussion questions yet, my oldest will with year 1, but I have 3 more units to finish and that could take a year. I have started some preliminary planning, and I think the approach I will take is to do a question or two a day rather than having the intense discussions once a week. To be honest this is the way we do best with most things. My kids balk at doing mapping once a week because it is too much writing. Tell them they can do one or two places a day and they love it. Thus the plan is that once my dd finishes the reading I will start the discussion questions. When I run across one she didn't cover in her normal reading (because I will be using MOH as one of my spines instead of the TOG recommendations) then I will either teach it with the discussion or if it isn't a topic I care about we will just move on. If you don't have a child doing the discussion substituting a book is very easy, with very little problems. In your case you might look at sticking to TOG main choices for any kids doing discussion and substitute away for the younger kids.

 

Heather

 

 

[Guest]

... so I bought Mike Venezia's book on him (my kids like MV books) and ...

 

...but often we use books not related to history. The last one we did was a cat book because my family is obsessed with cats. :D

 

Heather, Heather, Heather, what are you doing to me here :lol:? It's not bad enough that I already have a huge list of books and other hs stuff on my list, you go and remind me that I wanted to get some books on the great composers to add to our Calvert Discoveries in Music program. We have had it for a while and I have scheduled it and covered it twice with Adrian and then put it aside for when he is a little more mature so that I could then add resources such as these to it. Thank you for the recommendation. I had seen these a while back but did not know anyone that was using them and was not ready to do this yet anyway. Now I am adding more books to our list :banghead: :lol:.

 

By the way we also add books of personal interest :D. What we have been adding a lot of are books on vehicles and construction machines. Adrian has a passion for anything to do with vehicles, construction machines and building/ construction.

[Mama Lynx]

I can't remember who on here does it, but I've seen them post about how the "do" TOG LCC style. I'm sure I saw it recently in one of the TOG posts or at least maybe a search of it will pop up. I'll see what I can find.

 

:

 

It's me. I talked with Lovemykids a bit in PM, but I thought I'd put this here, as well.

 

We are LCC in philosophy, and we use TOG. When we first started with LCC I wanted to keep to the four-year history cycle. We used SOTW for the first go-round, but for logic stage TWTM-style history just didn't work well for us. I found that TOG works beautifully for us. I have two logic stage kids and two grammar stage kids. We mostly just use TOG for history - I assign the readings, and we discuss. We do some writing based on the history questions. The teacher helps and discussion questions/answers that TOG provides leads us to excellent, in-depth discussions.

 

I use some of TOG's literature, and some of the geography, and none of the rest of it. So the way we use TOG might not be cost-effective for many, but this is a good combination for us.

 

As far as high school goes: I believe that TOG says that if you do 75% of the assignments, that's a full credit; if you do all of the assignments, that's honors.

 

My oldest child will start 9th grade in the fall, and that is an ancients year for us. I have some problems with TOG Year 1, and so we will not actually be using it for high school for that year (and possibly, not for any of my kids for that year). Right now we're looking at a self-made curriculum, or more of a TWTM Great Books study. We will see how the year goes with that, and then make the decision to either continue on in that vein, or return to TOG for Year 2.

[siloam]

Thank you for this. I was beginning to think I was the only homeschooler in the world with this same perspective.

 

Jennifer,

 

My dh is the one to thank. He started asking me why we were spending so much time on history way back in 1st grade when I did SL. Eventually he got through, well that and I have 4 students and limited time. :D Real life has a way of making one see the light quickly. :smilielol5:

 

Heather

 

[siloam]

Heather, Heather, Heather, what are you doing to me here :lol:? It's not bad enough that I already have a huge list of books and other hs stuff on my list, you go and remind me that I wanted to get some books on the great composers to add to our Calvert Discoveries in Music program. We have had it for a while and I have scheduled it and covered it twice with Adrian and then put it aside for when he is a little more mature so that I could then add resources such as these to it. Thank you for the recommendation. I had seen these a while back but did not know anyone that was using them and was not ready to do this yet anyway. Now I am adding more books to our list :banghead: :lol:.

 

By the way we also add books of personal interest :D. What we have been adding a lot of are books on vehicles and construction machines. Adrian has a passion for anything to do with vehicles, construction machines and building/ construction.

 

:smilielol5::smilielol5: I have almost the whole series now, of both the art books, and the president books. They are the one history type text that even my non-history kids will pick up and read on their own.

 

Now he is producing books on scientists too, which I love but my pocket book could use a break too. :D

 

Too bad we didn't live closer, our boys would be instant buddies.

 

Heather

 

[Tracy]

Also, I would need to secularize it, making even more work for myself.

 

I haven't used TOG yet, but I have been heavily researching it. From the looks of the free samples at the site, TOG would be really hard to secularize. It is about as heavy a religious (and specifically Protestant) curriculum as you will ever find.

[lovemykids]

I haven't used TOG yet, but I have been heavily researching it. From the looks of the free samples at the site, TOG would be really hard to secularize. It is about as heavy a religious (and specifically Protestant) curriculum as you will ever find.

 

Yes, that’s the reason that I dismissed it so many times before. But recently I have heard of several WTM forum members using it secularly, which is why I was reconsidering TOG. I also love the idea of teaching all of my children from the same central theme, since that is basically what I end up doing anyway. As my children get older, and my workload increases, I find myself wanting to use something pulled together for me, so I can stop juggling so many different sources, especially for high school.

We are currently doing an ancient study along with Sonlight 3+4 (I broke down and bought it after putting my own together the first half of the year) and SL 4 LA (in addition to various other LA materials); I have little difficulty secularizing SL. Although, admittedly, SL seems like a very easy program to use in a secular manner, and over the years we have used bits and pieces of several cores. (two different pre-school cores, core k, and 1+2) We did them in addition to SOTW and used pieces of Ambleside Online as well. ….but the cost of TOG is what is really holding me back. Sonlight and Ambleside are much more affordable because I can usually use the library for half of the books or more.

[lovemykids]

I am glad to have TOG myself, but there is no way I have the time to do it as scheduled. It is after all just history. You can use critical thinking products, science or debate with which to do teach the thinking/analytical piece, without it being a burden. I love history, TOG, WTM, SL (yes all of them) but sometimes I think they all put way to much emphasis on a topic that no one is that concerned about academically. I say walk away without guilt.

 

Heather

 

Yes, I agree, but if you couple history studies with LA, at least one can ‘kill two birds with one stone’, so to speak. My problem is that I continue to add in program after program, even doing two history studies at once. I just can’t keep up with everything! :tongue_smilie:

[Mama Lynx]

FYI, I have only found secularizing it a problem with Year 1. The others have been easy - little to no effort.

[Mama Lynx]

Thank you for this. I was beginning to think I was the only homeschooler in the world with this same perspective.

 

Oh, definitely! This is why I tell people that many would not consider the way in which I use TOG to be cost-effective. We just use it for history. It doesn't take us all that much time.

[Tracy]

Sonlight and Ambleside are much more affordable because I can usually use the library for half of the books or more.

 

 

I did a trial run with one week of TOG free samples. I ordered every book from the library on the first page of reading lists for all of the levels. I was able to get 90% of what I ordered within one week. There were a couple of stragglers that came the next week and just one LG book that came later than that. There were some spines, like SOTW, on the second page that I couldn't get at all. But at least in our library system, I think I can do TOG without buying hardly any of the books.

[Mama Lynx]

I haven't used TOG yet, but I have been heavily researching it. From the looks of the free samples at the site, TOG would be really hard to secularize. It is about as heavy a religious (and specifically Protestant) curriculum as you will ever find.

 

Year 1 is pretty much impossible to work with, yes. The other years I have found to be very, very easy to secularize.

[lovemykids]

I did a trial run with one week of TOG free samples. I ordered every book from the library on the first page of reading lists for all of the levels. I was able to get 90% of what I ordered within one week. There were a couple of stragglers that came the next week and just one LG book that came later than that. There were some spines, like SOTW, on the second page that I couldn't get at all. But at least in our library system, I think I can do TOG without buying hardly any of the books.

 

So are you thinking of trying it now? LOL. It’s very attractive, especially if you have several children to teach. I also checked at my library for some of the books from the store, but I didn’t have much success, I also kept running across books that I wouldn’t be able to use…

But if Mamalynx says it’s easy to secularize, I believe her.

Oh, Mamalynx, nice blog; I think those of us that requested information on how you use TOG in an LCC way, would like a few more details please. Although, I think I get it, so no need really. :) Thanks for the PM.

 

[Guest]

:smilielol5::smilielol5: I have almost the whole series now, of both the art books, and the president books. They are the one history type text that even my non-history kids will pick up and read on their own.

 

Now he is producing books on scientists too, which I love but my pocket book could use a break too. :D

 

Too bad we didn't live closer, our boys would be instant buddies.

 

Heather

 

 

 

You are bad, telling me about the books on scientists also :banghead:! When I looked at them way back I was looking at the full series also but decided to wait since Adrian was so young. I love having books around. I have bought books that sat for a couple of years because Adrian was not ready for them and then when the time came he pulled them out on his own. So this is why I am not worried. When you have good books around eventually someone will pick them up and read them.

 

As for the boys they are close in age too and Adrian is a cat lover also by the way (as am I :D). Our last kitty died shortly before I got pregnant with Malcolm and so Adrian keeps asking when he can have another kitty. OK, better stop now, I'm way... off topic :p.

[Cynful]

Year 1 is pretty much impossible to work with, yes. The other years I have found to be very, very easy to secularize.

 

Did you use something different for year 1 then?

 

By the way, I really value everyone's comments in this whole thread. It's really helped me narrow down what my thoughts/plans will be for the future.

[Tracy]

So are you thinking of trying it now? LOL. It’s very attractive, especially if you have several children to teach. I also checked at my library for some of the books from the store, but I didn’t have much success, I also kept running across books that I wouldn’t be able to use…

 

Yes, I am going to try TOG, but secularizing it is not the concern for me. My problem is that we are Mormon, and TOG is really Protestant, and Protestants are known for being quite adversarial toward Mormons. But all in all, I think it is the same challenge for anyone that isn't Protestant--that is, making sure that the curriculum you are using is not offensive toward your beliefs (or others' for that matter).

[Guest]

Yes, I am going to try TOG, but secularizing it is not the concern for me. My problem is that we are Mormon, and TOG is really Protestant, and Protestants are known for being quite adversarial toward Mormons. But all in all, I think it is the same challenge for anyone that isn't Protestant--that is, making sure that the curriculum you are using is not offensive toward your beliefs (or others' for that matter).

 

I am not Protestant but I feel that generalizing like that is not very fair especially when you don't know someone. We have been using SL for two years now and SL is a curriculum used by many different denominations without any concern. I have also seen Mormons on their forums. As for the Somerville's, I don't know them IRL either but anything I have seen so far and any communications I have had with them or others from their staff in regards to my orders has been very respectful.

[Tracy]

I am not Protestant but I feel that generalizing like that is not very fair especially when you don't know someone. We have been using SL for two years now and SL is a curriculum used by many different denominations without any concern. I have also seen Mormons on their forums. As for the Somerville's, I don't know them IRL either but anything I have seen so far and any communications I have had with them or others from their staff in regards to my orders has been very respectful.

 

I am very sorry. In no way did I intend to offend anyone. I know many wonderful and non-judgmental people from many different religions, including Protestants. I often listen to Protestant radio programs and benefitted greatly from them. There are people from all religions (my own included) that are disrespectful of other religions, and there are non-religious folks that are disrespestful of religion in general. I only specifically mentioned Protestants because I was researching a Protestant curriculum. My intention was simply that all of us, religious and secular alike, have to be careful that the curriculum we are using is not going to be offensive to our families or our children. Please accept my apologies for any offense. I truly believe that there are good people everywhere, and I am so sorry that I came across as judgmental.

[Guest]

I am very sorry. In no way did I intend to offend anyone. I know many wonderful and non-judgmental people from many different religions, including Protestants. I often listen to Protestant radio programs and benefitted greatly from them. There are people from all religions (my own included) that are disrespectful of other religions, and there are non-religious folks that are disrespestful of religion in general. I only specifically mentioned Protestants because I was researching a Protestant curriculum. My intention was simply that all of us, religious and secular alike, have to be careful that the curriculum we are using is not going to be offensive to our families or our children. Please accept my apologies for any offense. I truly believe that there are good people everywhere, and I am so sorry that I came across as judgmental.

 

I was not offended ;). I just didn't want any misconceptions formed in others minds that might be reading this thread regarding TOG and its authors. I do agree that any program needs to be researched for suitability to our family values prior to purchasing it for our family.

[siloam]

Yes, I am going to try TOG, but secularizing it is not the concern for me. My problem is that we are Mormon, and TOG is really Protestant, and Protestants are known for being quite adversarial toward Mormons. But all in all, I think it is the same challenge for anyone that isn't Protestant--that is, making sure that the curriculum you are using is not offensive toward your beliefs (or others' for that matter).

 

Mormons are covered in year 3 week 15, 16, 17 where the expansion of the US is covered. I glanced at the Teacher Notes (using the search feature, nice thing about having digital versions) and most of the material was straight out of the Encyclopedia Britannica. It does have a side bar, but it just lists scriptures from the Bible, now they are points of differences between the two faith's but there is not additional commentary. The discussion time does go through the differences of faith, but I didn't find it demeaning. I lists the points, and lists a side bar of scripture again that from a Protestant point of view contradicts them. I suppose a Mormon would use the whole thing to flip it and talk about how Protestants and Mormon's differ.

 

Maybe you could find someone in your area who has TOG year 3 and look at those weeks specifically. I was skimming so it is possible I missed something.

 

Heather