Christian's watching Harry Potter and the like....a little help please

[Harriet Vane]

So HP is a sorcerer that doesn't perform sorcery? :confused:

 

The Bible specifically warns against using demonic power. Harry Potter does not interact with any demons, nor does he derive his power from Satan or any other spiritual force. Therefore what he does in the book is not what the Bible warns against.

[Guest Katia]

So HP is a sorcerer that doesn't perform sorcery? :confused:

 

Exactly. That is what we have all been trying to tell you. He is not a sorcerer by any Biblical definition, nor does he perform any kind of witchcraft that is mentioned in the Bible. At.all.

 

You are thinking that when we say what he does isn't 'real', that it is just because it is fiction or pretend. But, no, that is not what we are saying. We are saying no, he is not a wizard, nor does he practice witchcraft or sorcery that is mentioned in the Bible.

 

I think you are getting hung up on terms. When JK Rowling made up her story, she used the terms 'wizard', 'witches', 'spells', etc. because those are terms most are familiar with, but those terms have nothing to do with what the characters in the books are doing. They are not doing what Biblical witches, sorcerers or wizards do/did. She could have called them 'gozerds' and 'gazads' that learned 'signomes' and it would have been just as accurate. Then, perhaps, your children could read the books because those terms are not mentioned in the Bible, nor is their actions, nor are they Biblical sins.

 

Does that make it any more clear?

[OnTheBrink]

I did not single you out in a negative way by quoting you. I disagreed with you and went on to address a different point. That irritated you, and you then critiqued my character which was very judgemental. You don't even know me, but okay.

 

I think this is going to go back and forth, which I don't want to do (as there is no point), so say what you like, bash me, whatever, but I'm not interested in this conversation.

 

Please quote where I did this. Do not presume to know what has irritated me or not. You don't even know me. If you prefer to respond via PM, fine. But I've read and reread my exchanges to you and see no place where I've personally attacked you in any way. Again, if you feel so attacked, please report it.

[Word Nerd]

Exactly. That is what we have all been trying to tell you. He is not a sorcerer by any Biblical definition, nor does he perform any kind of witchcraft that is mentioned in the Bible. At.all.

 

You are thinking that when we say what he does isn't 'real', that it is just because it is fiction or pretend. But, no, that is not what we are saying. We are saying no, he is not a wizard, nor does he practice witchcraft or sorcery that is mentioned in the Bible.

 

 

:iagree: Well said.

[Guest Katia]

Sorry, Katia, I was being sarcastic. I can't tell if you took me seriously, or knew that and were being sarcastic too. :tongue_smilie:

 

I saw a trailer for the sorcerers stone, and I still think it's unbiblical, fantasy or not. I think we are going to have to agree to disagree on this one. :)

 

Sorry, no. I didn't know you were being sarcastic and my reply to you was certainly not sarcastic in any way. I was trying to be truly helpful.

 

I'm also sorry that you only saw a trailer to a movie and have made judgments about it being unBiblical without any way to substantiate that judgment, and yet have argued that non-supported opinion for 13 pages.

 

Yep, you are welcome to your opinion, no matter how unsubstantiated, but I think I'll stick to my well researched, Bible-based one. Have a great day!

[Mrs Mungo]

Maybe this will help?

http://www.religioustolerance.org/divin_bibl.htm

 

There are many Biblical passages that described some prohibited types of occultic activity by the ancient Israelites. These include Exodus 22:18, Leviticus 19:26-26; 19:31; 20:6; Deuteronomy 18:10-11; Isaiah 8:19 and Malachai 3:5. Of these, Deuteronomy 18 is perhaps the most important. They forbade the Israelites from engaging in human sacrifice and in eight specific practices which some have been regarded as occultic. The King James translation is:

"There shall not be found among you anyone that maketh his son or his daughter to pass through the fire, or that useth divination, or an observer of times, or an enchanter or a witch, or a charmer, or a consulter with familiar spirits, or a wizard, or a necromancer.

Interpreting Deuteronomy 18 in terms of modern-day practice, it is apparent that the following are prohibited:

 

1. yid'oni
   The New Age practice of channeling in which a person attempts to contact a spirit in order to gain knowledge.
   
   
2. sho'el 'ov
   Spiritualism, in which a medium contacts the dead.
   
   
3. qosem q'samim
   Casting stones or sticks and predicting the future by their position (e.g. I Ching, and perhaps runes, or Tarot cards).
   
   
4. m'onen
   Foretelling the future by looking for signs in nature (e.g. predicting the harshness of a winter by looking at moss on trees, or fur thickness on animals in the wild, or whether the groundhog sees his shadow on FEB-2.)
   
   
5. m'nachesh
   Snake charming.
   
   
6. chover chavar
   Casting (presumably evil) spells while tying knots.
   
   
7. m'khaseph
   Reciting evil spoken spells to injure others .
   
   
8. doresh 'el hametim
   Any other method of contacting the dead .

 

 

 

 

 

[lionfamily1999]

Sorry, no. I didn't know you were being sarcastic and my reply to you was certainly not sarcastic in any way. I was trying to be truly helpful.

 

I'm also sorry that you only saw a trailer to a movie and have made judgments about it being unBiblical without any way to substantiate that judgment, and yet have argued that non-supported opinion for 13 pages.

 

Yep, you are welcome to your opinion, no matter how unsubstantiated, but I think I'll stick to my well researched, Bible-based one. Have a great day!

She's concerned about her children's spiritual welfare. She commented on a post asking parents who had those concerns. She got blasted.

 

She's basing her points on prayerful consideration of the scripture, I would hardly call that unsubstantiated. You disagree, fine, but there's no need for the full on attack that she's faced.

[Mrs Mungo]

HP does magic/sorcery. Are you saying he doesn't?

 

We are saying that imaginary magic is not the same thing as Biblical sorcery, at all. The type of "magic" in Harry Potter is not forbidden by the scriptures because that type of magic doesn't exist.

[lionfamily1999]

We are saying that imaginary magic is not the same thing as Biblical sorcery, at all. The type of "magic" in Harry Potter is not forbidden by the scriptures because that type of magic doesn't exist.

They do try to fortell the future, they do contact the dead, they do some of those things that you listed in your links. Those things are very real, they aren't games, right? Kids, seeing this fantasy world, could be just as drawn into reading tea leaves or casting runes which are strictly prohibited Biblically, right?

 

Yes, it's imaginary. So is Hitman. It doesn't mean that it will not have an adverse effect on a child's view of the world or how the child will react to the world.

 

 

1. yid'oni The New Age practice of channeling in which a person attempts to contact a spirit in order to gain knowledge.

That big mirror thing that Harry sees his parents his...

 

1. sho'el 'ov Spiritualism, in which a medium contacts the dead.

see above.

 

1. qosem q'samim Casting stones or sticks and predicting the future by their position (e.g. I Ching, and perhaps runes, or Tarot cards).

They teach a class on that at Hogwarts.

 

1. m'onen Foretelling the future by looking for signs in nature (e.g. predicting the harshness of a winter by looking at moss on trees, or fur thickness on animals in the wild, or whether the groundhog sees his shadow on FEB-2.)

see above.

 

1. m'nachesh Snake charming.

Doesn't Harry speak snake language? Isn't that one of those things that happen in the first movie?

 

1. chover chavar Casting (presumably evil) spells while tying knots.

2. m'khaseph Reciting evil spoken spells to injure others .

Well, how about all the spells they use?

 

1. doresh 'el hametim Any other method of contacting the dead .

 

Yes, it's fantasy, but it plays/dabbles in very real, very ungodly behavior.

Edited November 23, 2009 by lionfamily1999

[Mrs Mungo]

They do try to fortell the future, they do contact the dead, they do some of those things that you listed in your links. Those things are very real, they aren't games, right? Kids, seeing this fantasy world, could be just as drawn into reading tea leaves or casting runes which are strictly prohibited Biblically, right?

 

The only person who tries to read the future is shown as a ridiculous figure.

 

I can't think of an instance where someone on the side of "good" is deliberately contacting the dead, but maybe I'm forgetting something? Can you give me an instance of that?

 

Yes, it's imaginary. So is Hitman. It doesn't mean that it will not have an adverse effect on a child's view of the world or how the child will react to the world.

What is Hitman? Are you speaking of this movie? Really? You're comparing Harry Potter with a shoot 'em up assassin movie with sex scenes?

 

edited to address the added points:

 

 

1. yid'oni The New Age practice of channeling in which a person attempts to contact a spirit in order to gain knowledge.

 

That big mirror thing that Harry sees his parents his...

 

He isn't contacting them, he can only see them.

 

 

 

 

1. qosem q'samim Casting stones or sticks and predicting the future by their position (e.g. I Ching, and perhaps runes, or Tarot cards).

 

They teach a class on that at Hogwarts.

Again, this class is something of a joke, it's shown to be most charlatanism.

 

 

 

1. m'nachesh Snake charming.

 

Doesn't Harry speak snake language? Isn't that one of those things that happen in the first movie?

Ah, but speaking snake language is a skill associated with evil. Harry gained it in a unique manner and does not use it to control snakes and use them for evil.

 

 

 

1. chover chavar Casting (presumably evil) spells while tying knots.

2. m'khaseph Reciting evil spoken spells to injure others .

 

Well, how about all the spells they use?

Evil spells that harm others are illegal in the "wizarding world."

 

eta: to Jinnah-the link I posted wasn't about Harry Potter. It was only about these terms and what they mean.

Edited November 23, 2009 by Mrs Mungo

[lionfamily1999]

The only person who tries to read the future is shown as a ridiculous figure.

Except when she's right! Also, they (including Ron) forsee the coming of the dog, the grim. It's not just the teacher, the students actually make at least one good prediction.

I can't think of an instance where someone on the side of "good" is deliberately contacting the dead, but maybe I'm forgetting something? Can you give me an instance of that?

 

What is Hitman? Are you speaking of this movie? Really? You're comparing Harry Potter with a shoot 'em up assassin movie with sex scenes?

It's fantasy :) Are you saying it's real? I mean, it's just pretend!

edited to address the added points:

 

He isn't contacting them, he can only see them.

He TRIES to contact them and he goes back and tries again.

Again, this class is something of a joke, it's shown to be most charlatanism.

Ah, but speaking snake language is a skill associated with evil. Harry gained it in a unique manner and does not use it to control snakes and use them for evil.

Okay, so using evil skills are okay, as long as you use them to fight evil?

Evil spells that harm others are illegal in the "wizarding world."

You can zap someone to take away their wand, right? The kids used various on Snipe (is that his name?) to make his life horrible. The modern day kids use spells all the time. They use levitation spells to hurt others.

eta: to Jinnah-the link I posted wasn't about Harry Potter. It was only about these terms and what they mean.

.

[Mrs Mungo]

Even when someone posts actual witchcraft that HP does, it still gets explained away. That may be fine for you, but the Christians that oppose it choose not to justify it... why are we in the wrong for this?

 

I didn't say anyone was wrong. I explained *my* position and why *I* chose the way I did for me and my family.

 

The pastor of my current church and the pastor of our previous church were both homeschooled families who read Harry Potter. Plenty of Christians don't have a problem with fantasy books.

 

I said in my original post that I understand why some people forgo the books based on their *personal* convictions or leanings.

[lionfamily1999]

I didn't say anyone was wrong. I explained *my* position and why *I* chose the way I did for me and my family.

 

The pastor of my current church and the pastor of our previous church were both homeschooled families who read Harry Potter. Plenty of Christians don't have a problem with fantasy books.

 

I said in my original post that I understand why some people forgo the books based on their *personal* convictions or leanings.

Okay then, there's nothing to argue about :p

 

You have your reasons, I have mine, all is right with the world.

 

:grouphug:

[Ginevra]

They do try to fortell the future, they do contact the dead, they do some of those things that you listed in your links. Those things are very real, they aren't games, right? Kids, seeing this fantasy world, could be just as drawn into reading tea leaves or casting runes which are strictly prohibited Biblically, right?

 

Yes, it's imaginary. So is Hitman. It doesn't mean that it will not have an adverse effect on a child's view of the world or how the child will react to the world.

 

 

1. yid'oni The New Age practice of channeling in which a person attempts to contact a spirit in order to gain knowledge.

That big mirror thing that Harry sees his parents his...

 

1. sho'el 'ov Spiritualism, in which a medium contacts the dead.

see above.

 

1. qosem q'samim Casting stones or sticks and predicting the future by their position (e.g. I Ching, and perhaps runes, or Tarot cards).

They teach a class on that at Hogwarts.

 

1. m'onen Foretelling the future by looking for signs in nature (e.g. predicting the harshness of a winter by looking at moss on trees, or fur thickness on animals in the wild, or whether the groundhog sees his shadow on FEB-2.)

see above.

 

1. m'nachesh Snake charming.

Doesn't Harry speak snake language? Isn't that one of those things that happen in the first movie?

 

1. chover chavar Casting (presumably evil) spells while tying knots.

2. m'khaseph Reciting evil spoken spells to injure others .

Well, how about all the spells they use?

 

1. doresh 'el hametim Any other method of contacting the dead .

Yes, it's fantasy, but it plays/dabbles in very real, very ungodly behavior.

 

The "fortune telling" teacher is portayed as a bit of a fool and a fraud. No one watching a HP movie or reading a HP book could possibly interpret those scenes as a suggestion to read tea leaves or interpret dreams.

 

What sort of spells one is willing to use is one of the major points of the series. The "bad guys" use killing curses.

 

That Harry can speak to snakes becomes a significant plot point by the last book.

 

And the Mirror of Erised is not a device to contact the dead. It shows you your heart's desire ("Erised" is Desire spelled backwards, read in a mirror.) Harry sees his parents because that is his hearts desire.

 

Anyway...reading the Harry Potter books does not remotely "teach" witchcraft or make myself or my kids long to become a witch. I respect that if someone is bothered, then by all means, stay away from it, but it seems pretty absurd to me. Would watching Cloudy With a Chance of Meatballs make me long to not have to bother with dinner? :D

[Mrs Mungo]

Except when she's right! Also, they (including Ron) forsee the coming of the dog, the grim. It's not just the teacher, the students actually make at least one good prediction.

 

But she's never right when she's trying. Prophecy is real, it's even Biblical. *Trying* to predict the future is what's not Biblical and it's never right in the books (there is no actual grim in the book, it's just a superstition).

 

 

 

It's fantasy :) Are you saying it's real? I mean, it's just pretend!

 

Assassins are very real, so is sex. Even fake sex in movies is mostly real.

 

 

 

He TRIES to contact them and he goes back and tries again.

 

He goes back to see them but he knows he cannot contact them.

 

 

Ah, but speaking snake language is a skill associated with evil. Harry gained it in a unique manner and does not use it to control snakes and use them for evil.

Okay, so using evil skills are okay, as long as you use them to fight evil?

 

Can you recall a time Harry is controlling a snake through his use of the snake language? I cannot.

 

Evil spells that harm others are illegal in the "wizarding world."

You can zap someone to take away their wand, right? The kids used various on Snipe (is that his name?) to make his life horrible. The modern day kids use spells all the time. They use levitation spells to hurt others

 

The kids using spells on Snape in order to bully him is clearly shown as wrong. It's shown to have affected Snape in the extreme, even as an adult.

[The Governess]

Even when someone posts actual witchcraft that HP does, it still gets explained away.

 

She isn't trying to explain it away, she is trying to show that while some of those things come up in the books, they are portrayed as either evil or at the very least unprofitable. For example, when Harry sees his parents in the mirror, the lesson is that it does you no good to focus on what you can't have (his parents back) and forget to live your life. These types of magic aren't presented as things that anyone should actually want to use or do, and they have negative consequences, just like sin does in our "real" world.

[Ginevra]

Also, they (including Ron) forsee the coming of the dog, the grim.

 

They don't forsee the coming of the dog, the grim! The Grim is the omen of death and Harry does not die. That is a plot diversion to keep you from discovering the true identity of the black dog Harry does see. The black dog is Sirius black.

[Mrs Mungo]

She isn't trying to explain it away, she is trying to show that while some of those things come up in the books, they are portrayed as either evil or at the very least unprofitable. For example, when Harry sees his parents in the mirror, the lesson is that it does you no good to focus on what you can't have (his parents back) and forget to live your life. These types of magic aren't presented as things that anyone should actually want to use or do, and they have negative consequences, just like sin does in our "real" world.

 

Right, exactly.

[Ginevra]

The kids using spells on Snape in order to bully him is clearly shown as wrong. It's shown to have affected Snape in the extreme, even as an adult.

 

 

And that is a very humbling lesson for Harry, too, to realize that his father was not perfect and that Snape had good reason for disliking James (Harry's Dad).

[lionfamily1999]

 

Assassins are very real, so is sex. Even fake sex in movies is mostly real.

 

Can you recall a time Harry is controlling a snake through his use of the snake language? I cannot.

The basilisk, isn't that how they get past it?

 

The whole thing is that those types of magic are real and have real consequences. Seeing into the future, or attempting to, casting spells, all of it, it's Biblical and not in a glowing positive light.

 

Assassins that are 'made' and have barcodes are not real. :001_huh: The premise for Hitman is very much fantasy based.

[Mrs Mungo]

So do you think modern day fortune tellers are biblically okay? A lot are wrong, but either way, they are trying to tell the future. Just because they got it wrong, does not mean they weren't sinning. Their intent is to tell the future, which is something they shouldn't be doing.

 

You are misunderstanding what I'm saying. What I'm saying is that attempting to tell the future, to fortune tell, to use tarot cards or tea leaf reading is shown to be foolish and fake in the Harry Potter books, not as something that is desirable to do.

[lionfamily1999]

She isn't trying to explain it away, she is trying to show that while some of those things come up in the books, they are portrayed as either evil or at the very least unprofitable. For example, when Harry sees his parents in the mirror, the lesson is that it does you no good to focus on what you can't have (his parents back) and forget to live your life. These types of magic aren't presented as things that anyone should actually want to use or do, and they have negative consequences, just like sin does in our "real" world.

Here's the deal. An opinion was asked for. Opinions were given. Some were bashed pretty hard, because others found them to be "wrong." I'm defending an opinion, while being told I shouldn't attack anyone else's opinion. I don't really care if anyone agrees with me, but it really rankles me to be told that I'm wrong, or misinformed, when I have sound grounds for my opinion.

 

Justify away! It puts magic, spell casting and fortune telling in a positive light. The Bible doesn't. That, to me, would mean it's contrary to the teachings of the Bible.

[Ginevra]

So do you think modern day fortune tellers are biblically okay? A lot are wrong in their predictions, but either way, they are trying to tell the future. Just because they got it wrong, does not mean they weren't sinning. Their intent is to tell the future, which is something they shouldn't be doing.

 

The point is that the fortune-telling character in the book is portrayed as laughable. Her predictions continuously fail. Other characters talk about how her predictions continuously fail. (McGonagal, Dumbledore) I don't think modern day fortune tellers are bibically okay; I wouldn't go see one. But to me there isn't anything remotely worrisome about reading about a goofy character in a book who is a fortune-teller.

[The Governess]

Just because a good lesson comes out of occultic behaviors, does not make it okay, IMO.

 

I totally agree, and in the book they are never condoned as "okay" either, which is what I was trying to explain.

[Mrs Mungo]

The basilisk, isn't that how they get past it?

 

No, they kill it with a sword. Harry uses the snake language a few times-the first is when he talks to the snake in the zoo, the second is when he tells a snake conjured by Malfoy not to harm the students. It's only after the second instance that he is made aware that he's speaking snake tongue and of its association with evil. I don't believe he ever directly speaks to a snake again after that (and he eventually loses that power).

 

The whole thing is that those types of magic are real and have real consequences. Seeing into the future, or attempting to, casting spells, all of it, it's Biblical and not in a glowing positive light.

 

We're going to have to agree to disagree that they type of magic in Harry Potter and the type that is forbidden by The Bible are the same thing.

 

Assassins that are 'made' and have barcodes are not real. :001_huh: The premise for Hitman is very much fantasy based.

 

I've never seen that movie and cannot speak to how much is fantasy v. reality.

[Ginevra]

The basilisk, isn't that how they get past it?

 

 

No, that's not how they get past it. They don't get past it. Harry kills it with the Sword of Gryffindoor. He almost dies because of the basilisk fang piercing his arm, but he is revived by the Phoenix (a symbol for Christ, by the way.) The Basilisk is evil and Harry does not control it; Tom Riddle does; he is evil.

[The Governess]

Here's the deal. An opinion was asked for. Opinions were given. Some were bashed pretty hard, because others found them to be "wrong." I'm defending an opinion, while being told I shouldn't attack anyone else's opinion. I don't really care if anyone agrees with me, but it really rankles me to be told that I'm wrong, or misinformed, when I have sound grounds for my opinion.

 

Justify away! It puts magic, spell casting and fortune telling in a positive light. The Bible doesn't. That, to me, would mean it's contrary to the teachings of the Bible.

 

I'm sorry, I honestly don't have a problem with anyone's opinion on the subject. I do respect everyone's choice to read/not read the books. It just seems like some of us are on different pages with how we are interpreting parts of the books and how these issues are presented in the books and I was trying to offer some clarification on my own interpretation. I don't feel the need to justify my opinion, just to be understood.

[lionfamily1999]

I'm sorry, I honestly don't have a problem with anyone's opinion on the subject. I do respect everyone's choice to read/not read the books. It just seems like some of us are on different pages with how we are interpreting parts of the books and how these issues are presented in the books and I was trying to offer some clarification on my own interpretation. I don't feel the need to justify my opinion, just to be understood.

I'm sorry, I jumped on you while responding to someone else, iykwIm.

 

The irritation was not meant for you.

[Ginevra]

Besides watching the trailer, I did extensive research on HP to make a decision. I read summaries of the books and researched what they were about. That is how I made my decision. I didn't just blindly say I don't like HP.

 

I don't suppose you read any book by John Granger on the subject.

 

I respect that you researched it; that's more than what I believe most do. They "hear" that it's bad and they never investigate it themselves. I read the first book because I wanted to see if there was any merit in banning the books. That's when I saw what a wonderful story it was and I snapped them all up and waited eagerly with everyone else for the last book to be published.

[Alison in KY]

I just wanted to pop on here and say thank you for all the great responses. I haven't come to a decision for myself, but I am so much more enlightened on the different ways I could view shows like these.

 

Alison

[woolybear]

Okay, I have not read all the responses here (just a few actually) but I am just reading up on the Narnia books as I was considering reading them to dc. Aren't they a Christian allegory? So, I would think that would be acceptable to some for whom Harry Potter, Star Wars, etc. are not. Sorry if this is repetitve or has been answered already.

 

Also, I would think if one's values are firm, watching something like Desperate Housewives would not influence that person. That being said, although we are working to instill strong values in our children, I believe they are still developing and are not firmly set yet. Therefore, I would be conscientous about what I let them encounter/see.

 

My dc have seen Harry Potter and Star Wars, but there are other movies I have said no to.

[Hedgehogs4]

Well, I am a huge fan of HP and I love the fantasy genre. I wanted to point out something that a lot of people who have not read/watched HP don't understand or realize. The story line of HP is very Christian. It is the most noticeable in the last story, Deathly Hallows. Harry has to sacrifice himself in courage and love to rid the world of Voldemort. Every story in the series is about the triumph of good over evil; courage, sacrifice and love.

 

Any book by John Granger is good on this subject. Check our How Harry Cast His Spell or the Deathly Hallows Lectures.

 

I have always thought it unfair when people sanction Narnia, but ban HP. They are both Christian allegories and they both contain the gamut of mythological creatures and they are both good vs. evil stories. I think the only difference was that Lewis was known as a Christian and Rowling was not.

 

thanks for the spoiler... :glare: