Cross-post: Working with local school district and the law - HELP!?

[Jennifer in MI]

I'll try to keep this short! I am currently homeschooling an 8th grader and I'm trying to figure out all my options as far as his high school experience goes. Today, I met with the curriculum director for the local school district. I wanted to find out if he could participate in extracurriculars, sports, or take specific classes at the high school (foreign language, science, and upper level math).

 

I was told no for extracurriculars and sports unless he enrolls full time. He can take non-core classes at the high school. They handed me a sheet that listed the non-core classes and they are not ones that we need him to take (drama, music, PE, television production, etc).

 

Now, I called my mom and she said that at my old high school in MI (same state) they DO allow homeschoolers to take classes. I've written to the principal there to find out what the story is. So, I did some research on line and found that:

 

Nonpublic and home school students may enroll in nonessential elective classes at the resident public school

(Snyder v Charlotte Public Schools, 421 Mich 517, 365 NW2d 151 (1984)). . . . . . Nonessential elective classes may include, but are not limited to: band, drama, art, physical education, music,

computer, and advanced placement courses.

 

So, he CAN take AP classes, according to state law, right?

 

Now, I read further and see:

 

Athletics and Extracurricular Activities

. . . . .

In order to participate in public school extracurricular activities, a student should be enrolled part-time in the

public school.

 

Doesn't this sound like my ds should be allowed to take these classes as well as participate in the extracurricular activities if he's enrolled part-time?

 

On the sheet I was given from the school district, it states, "Coaches and teachers for extracurricular activities are provided by the funding that the district receives from the state for enrolled students and are therefore not available to homeschooled students."

 

Now, if my ds were enrolled as a parttime student, wouldn't he be counted as a student and wouldn't the school be receiving funding for him? How do I find this information?

 

I'm SOOOOOO overwhelmed. I just want my ds to have the same opportunities that his PS peers have. He wants to join the robotic league, play baseball, and a few other things. I want him to be able to take classes that I can't teach. She said it was about money. I said we'd pay. The answer is still no. It's not about money.

 

Is this something I should contact HSLDA about? Or, should I still try to work with the school system? I don't have these laws at my fingertips and they certainly didn't seem willing to work with me today. So, handing it over to someone else to do sounds VERY nice right now!

 

Advice? Suggestions?

[Jennifer in MI]

Thanks Kinsa. I'm not a member. If I join, would they help me on this?

 

I really thought they were trying to pull one over on me. Whether it's purposeful or not, I don't know yet. The woman I met with gave me some wrong information that I knew was wrong at the time. She said that hsed kids couldn't participate in club sports. I have a 6th grader currently rowing with the high school crew team on their novice boat. There are other homeschooled kids on that team! This woman was adamant that there couldn't be!

 

Anyway, I think I'm in over my head and need some help!

[inactive]

Thanks Kinsa. I'm not a member. If I join, would they help me on this?

 

I really thought they were trying to pull one over on me. Whether it's purposeful or not, I don't know yet. The woman I met with gave me some wrong information that I knew was wrong at the time. She said that hsed kids couldn't participate in club sports. I have a 6th grader currently rowing with the high school crew team on their novice boat. There are other homeschooled kids on that team! This woman was adamant that there couldn't be!

 

Anyway, I think I'm in over my head and need some help!

 

I think if you called HSLDA, they would make a phone call to the school district on your behalf -- even if you don't join.

[MyThreeSons]

I think if you called HSLDA, they would make a phone call to the school district on your behalf -- even if you don't join.

 

It was my understanding that HSLDA doesn't go to bat for homeschoolers to receive services thru the public schools.

[elizabeth]

 

http://www.michigan.gov/documents/Info2005_132227_7.pdf As a lawyer when I read page 6-7 of this document it seems absolutely clear that your son is entitled to take AP classes. State law on the point is clear as you correctly noted. It is odd that this person you spoke with seems clearly ignorant. Make an appointment with her superior with the law from the website I posted and the case you cited that supports the contention that they are in error. Individual school districts cannot override state law. The US Constitution is the supreme law of the US and no state law can contradict that , and so on ad infinitum. In essence state law trumps any interpretation by an individual school district and if it is the practice it is in violation of the supremacy law that is one of the cornerstones of jurisprudence in our legal system. I am surprised you do not have a local hs group that is well apprised regarding the law in this area. Our local hs group certainly has tons of information and they are delighted to share information on what our respective rights and duties are within the context of working to use ps and hs as we so desire. I have found that it is best to take the district handbook with me for any meetings regarding PSAT, AP, free ccollege courses etc as many, if not most ps administrators do not know the law in this area and it sure helps to have the info in hand when dealing with these things. I always am courteous but also state "It is my understanding according to rule...or statute...as a hs family we are able to enroll for calculus at no expense within the times you have scheduled. If I am incorrect in my understanding could you show me the rule, law or statute that states otherwise?" They stutter and do exactly what the law says they should ,after they ask 5 other people who have no idea what the rule, law or statute in question says. It is not always contempt for hs but rather sloth or willful ignorance that causes such confusion. It happens here all the time despite the fact that both dh and I are licensed attorneys...People tend to be familiar with the regulations that affect them personally. It all depends on whose ox is getting gored if there is an error...if it isn't their petard on the line ,they likely do not give a great deal of thought to their whether their answers to your queries are correct or not. I am genuinely sorry for the misinformation and hassle . Try to become proactive ,carry the handbook for the high school, state law and the case from 1984 from the Michigan Supreme Court in hand and see if the response is different. Ask them to explain why their position is different from the documents that you hold in your hand. Has the law on this changed? Does the district have a policy that contradicts the case on point? Make them explain and defend their "policy," that seems to contradict Michigan law. I hope you share the ensuing conversations and developments as this is a problem for so many who are trying to have the best of both worlds. I opted out completely as the AP scores stink in our district, dd has a far better chance to do well with her parents preparing her.

[Guest christinefield]

We'd be happy to help you at Homeschool Legal Advantage, whether or not you choose to join :) We assist people with problems like this all the time.

It would be a privilege to be of service.

 

Christine Field

Attorney at Law

www.HomeschoolLegalAdvantage.com

cfield@gibbsfirm.com

[elizabeth]

 

http://www.hslda.org/docs/nche/000000/00000049.asp Wonderful legal summary regarding access to ps benefits for hs students. I disagree with the conclusions at the end but in terms of your situation it might not hurt to speak with them.

[Gwen in VA]

We used to live in MA, and there a homeschooler can take classes through the public school if the public school is inclined.

 

We lived in a town that did let hs'ers take classes, so we had wonderful visions of our kids taking AP classes there -- only to find out that hs'ers can only take classes IF THERE IS ROOM IN THE CLASS, and AP classes are usually full.

 

We moved to VA so the point became moot, but we were quite disappointed to find out (in our case) that even if taking classes is legally possible and the school system allows it, the reality is that hs'ers will be the last people allowed in the class -- if there is room.

[Ellie]

I agree with threebundles. They will take non-member calls if the case poses a threat to other homeschoolers and is not specific to your family, kwim? Since this sounds like it could potentially affect other homeschoolers in your area, they might go to bat for you. It's at least worth making the call to find out.

I don't see what the "threat" would be. No one's right to homeschool is being challenged. It is only that the local school is clueless about a hser taking classes.

 

Personally, I'd let it go. Hses have lots of options and resources; they don't need the public school for something like this.

[Jennifer in MI]

I think if you called HSLDA, they would make a phone call to the school district on your behalf -- even if you don't join.

 

I didn't know this! I'm perfectly willing to join, but wasn't sure if they'd take a call from a non-member (yet).

 

I agree with threebundles. They will take non-member calls if the case poses a threat to other homeschoolers and is not specific to your family, kwim? Since this sounds like it could potentially affect other homeschoolers in your area, they might go to bat for you. It's at least worth making the call to find out.

 

It's on my list of things to do on Monday!! Thank you!!

 

It was my understanding that HSLDA doesn't go to bat for homeschoolers to receive services thru the public schools.

 

I'll find out and let you know. Really, all I want is the information. I'm not sure I really need a lawyer to make phone calls or write letters yet. But, I may have all the info I need from this one thread!!

 

http://www.michigan.gov/documents/Info2005_132227_7.pdf As a lawyer when I read page 6-7 of this document it seems absolutely clear that your son is entitled to take AP classes. State law on the point is clear as you correctly noted. It is odd that this person you spoke with seems clearly ignorant. Make an appointment with her superior with the law from the website I posted and the case you cited that supports the contention that they are in error. Individual school districts cannot override state law. The US Constitution is the supreme law of the US and no state law can contradict that , and so on ad infinitum. In essence state law trumps any interpretation by an individual school district and if it is the practice it is in violation of the supremacy law that is one of the cornerstones of jurisprudence in our legal system. I am surprised you do not have a local hs group that is well apprised regarding the law in this area. Our local hs group certainly has tons of information and they are delighted to share information on what our respective rights and duties are within the context of working to use ps and hs as we so desire. I have found that it is best to take the district handbook with me for any meetings regarding PSAT, AP, free ccollege courses etc as many, if not most ps administrators do not know the law in this area and it sure helps to have the info in hand when dealing with these things. I always am courteous but also state "It is my understanding according to rule...or statute...as a hs family we are able to enroll for calculus at no expense within the times you have scheduled. If I am incorrect in my understanding could you show me the rule, law or statute that states otherwise?" They stutter and do exactly what the law says they should ,after they ask 5 other people who have no idea what the rule, law or statute in question says. It is not always contempt for hs but rather sloth or willful ignorance that causes such confusion. It happens here all the time despite the fact that both dh and I are licensed attorneys...People tend to be familiar with the regulations that affect them personally. It all depends on whose ox is getting gored if there is an error...if it isn't their petard on the line ,they likely do not give a great deal of thought to their whether their answers to your queries are correct or not. I am genuinely sorry for the misinformation and hassle . Try to become proactive ,carry the handbook for the high school, state law and the case from 1984 from the Michigan Supreme Court in hand and see if the response is different. Ask them to explain why their position is different from the documents that you hold in your hand. Has the law on this changed? Does the district have a policy that contradicts the case on point? Make them explain and defend their "policy," that seems to contradict Michigan law. I hope you share the ensuing conversations and developments as this is a problem for so many who are trying to have the best of both worlds. I opted out completely as the AP scores stink in our district, dd has a far better chance to do well with her parents preparing her.

 

Thank you so much Elizabeth!!! I'm not sure if our local homeschool group could help me. We've not become members. We, at this point, homeschool only four days/week (it works with dh's work schedule). If we were to join the group, it would take us down to three days and it just wasn't enough. So, we're loners!! But, I'm going to contact them on Monday.

 

Thank you SO much for including the wording! I'm currently working on an email to the assistant superintendent and the woman I spoke with about this. I will definately use your wording! It's non-confrontational, yet effective. Everything I wanted to say came out on the offensive! And, I know I don't want to do that.

 

I had wanted to go in to that meeting more prepared. But, we'd had the flu for two weeks at our house and I didn't have the time, unfortunately.

 

Thank you SO much!!!

 

We'd be happy to help you at Homeschool Legal Advantage, whether or not you choose to join :) We assist people with problems like this all the time.

It would be a privilege to be of service.

 

Christine Field

Attorney at Law

www.HomeschoolLegalAdvantage.com

cfield@gibbsfirm.com

 

Thanks!!! You're on my list!

 

http://www.hslda.org/docs/nche/000000/00000049.asp Wonderful legal summary regarding access to ps benefits for hs students. I disagree with the conclusions at the end but in terms of your situation it might not hurt to speak with them.

 

I'll check it out tonight!

 

We used to live in MA, and there a homeschooler can take classes through the public school if the public school is inclined.

 

We lived in a town that did let hs'ers take classes, so we had wonderful visions of our kids taking AP classes there -- only to find out that hs'ers can only take classes IF THERE IS ROOM IN THE CLASS, and AP classes are usually full.

 

We moved to VA so the point became moot, but we were quite disappointed to find out (in our case) that even if taking classes is legally possible and the school system allows it, the reality is that hs'ers will be the last people allowed in the class -- if there is room.

 

Bummer. I'm so sorry! Did you find an alternative?

 

I don't see what the "threat" would be. No one's right to homeschool is being challenged. It is only that the local school is clueless about a hser taking classes.

 

Personally, I'd let it go. Hses have lots of options and resources; they don't need the public school for something like this.

 

The threat is that homeschoolers' legal rights are being denied. *IF* the OP's family has a legal right to participation in activities at the public school and they are being denied that right, then I would consider that a threat to homeschoolers' rights.

 

Yeah. This. If they're not going to uphold the law in the state and deny my child the rights he has as a resident of this district, then they'll do it to others.

 

I'd love to let this go. I really would. But, there are options and resources through our local high school that I'd like to take advantage of. And, we have the legal right to do so. It really would make our lives easier!!

 

Thank you everyone!! I'll keep you updated!!

[angela in ohio]

Athletics and Extracurricular Activities

. . . . .

In order to participate in public school extracurricular activities, a student should be enrolled part-time in the

public school.

 

Doesn't this sound like my ds should be allowed to take these classes as well as participate in the extracurricular activities if he's enrolled part-time?

 

No. Just above that in the document Elizabeth linked, it says that the policy is up to each local board of education. IF they do allow them to participate, though, it says that they should be enrolled part-time (likely to establish a GPA to qualify to play.)

 

A lot of things are not mandated, but are provided by kindly school districts. Dh's district is allowing a student to get some special ed services, for example, even though they are homeschooled. It's not mandated by state law; they are just doing it. That doesn't mean any other school district has to do it. So what happens at another school in Michigan may not matter.

 

We are also in the middle of decisions about high school in Michigan, and we have been through all the laws. The bottom line is that if we choose to homeschool, we will be giving up certain things. The only thing I think you may be entitled to is the AP classes,unless there are prerequisites that he won't meet. I would do a lot of research about the quality of the AP classes first, though, before deciding that they were of high enough quality to outweigh any negatives of public school.

[elizabeth]

 

http://www.mhsaa.com/AbouttheMHSAA/FAQs.aspx Read down to the middle of the page on homeschool eligibility for sports . It does not look promising. I think the AP classes are definitely ok but the sports participation depends on the whim of the governing board. I hope you can get clear answers from your local group and that having some tools with which to address the AP issues is a comfort. I am so pleased that you found my suggestions helpful. Please keep us posted as I suspect this will not be the first time this issue and related ones crop up.

[elizabeth]

 

http://coa.courts.mi.gov/DOCUMENTS/OPINIONS/FINAL/COA/20040302_C239473_45_32O.239473.OPN.COA.PDF Here is the recent case law I was able to find. It is not mandatory that they permit hs to participate in athletics. I am sorry

[elizabeth]

 

http://www.nsba.org/MainMenu/SchoolLaw/Issues/Athletics/RecentCases/ReidvKenowaHillsPublicSchoolsNo239473MichCtAppMarch22004.aspx A quick and dirty summary of the caselaw in Michigan regarding whether participation in sports within the ps is a right or not. It is not considered a right. So there is the answer AP course yes,sports likely not. It is a bit chilling to see the analysis here...I am reading the case carefully but I do think there is an equal protection issue but who cares what attorney hsing momma thinks??Obviously there is and has been a great deal of rancor over this question in Michigan. It seems to me that parents of those who will only get to attend college on an athletic scholarship must forego the right to home educate or forego the option of permitting their children to compete for athletic based scholarships. I do not see this as equal treatment under the law since you are certainly penalized if you exercise the right under the law of Michigan to home educate your children. Disparate treatment as far as I am concerned but again who listens to me?!

[SheWhoWaits]

Hi Jennifer,

I live in Michigan too. I think the state leaves a lot of the decisions up to the local school district. They have to let you do things like band, art, PE. They may allow more if they choose. They are not allowed to let you do sports (unless they are intramural) because MHSAA won't allow it. They don't want schools to shop for the best athletes, so they only allow athletes to play at the school they attend.

I live in Kalamazoo. Kalamazoo schools stick to strictly what they have to allow homeschoolers to enroll in. But I have friends in Mattawan and Schoolcraft whose kids are allowed to take anything they want at the local high school. It seems if you live in a small town, you have a better chance of getting what you want. Also, I don't know exactly what is on the state list of what they have to let you take, but if I were you, I'd find out, and if your school district is denying you something on that list, put up a stink until you get what you're entitled to.

[Nan in Mass]

Can you use a neighboring, more friendly town instead?

[melmichigan]

I also live in Michigan. My DD is under a dual enrollment right now for ELA. Two of my kids also receive auxillary speech services from the school district. Most of the time I think it is ignorance in the law as well as the approach you take. There are also different rights if you homeschool as a registered nonpublic school.

 

There is specific law regarding high school classes online or at your local community college provided your son is seated for one class at your local high school. There used to be access to the information right from the mivhs.org site but it has been removed with the new site update. ;)

 

The best person to contact with questions might be Wanda Bazzett, she is the Home School Liason with the Department of Education in Lansing.

Edited November 16, 2009 by melmichigan

[Jennifer in MI]

IThe best person to contact with questions might be Wanda Bazzett, she is the Home School Liason with the Department of Education in Lansing.

 

Aha!! A name! I'm going to write to her next. Thank you.

 

I wrote to the person with whom I met. Her response to me:

 

I enjoyed meeting with you as well. In response to your questions:

 

Regarding AP: The state leaves it up to the district to define non-essential classes. (Notice the wording “may provideâ€) Because many Grosse Pointe students take AP classes they are identified by the district as part of the core sequence for more advanced students in that area. For example, many students take Freshman English, American Literature and the two AP classes as their four years of English and that is designated as a core sequence in that area. The same is true for any AP classes in the core areas. Elective AP classes (art, music, etc.) would be open to a student who is not full time.

 

As to the athletics, you are correct that the guidelines are those of the Michigan High School Athletic Association. For a seven period day, the minimum number of classes to be eligible is five. That is “part-time†under the Board rules (which require six) but would qualify a student for athletic eligibility. I believe I mentioned that rule during our meeting.

 

I hope this helps.

 

Now, she misunderstood my note to her. I asked about extra curriculars (robotics league, in particular), not sports.

 

My response that I haven't sent yet:

 

I noticed the wording "may provide" in the section that mentions AP classes. It also mentions that the classes ". . . are not limited to . . ." those classes indicating that some districts allow homeschooled students to participate in more than the non-essential courses. (I've since had this verified by some homeschooling friends here in the state). It was my hope that we could find a way that we could make this work. I can't imagine that there will be many students who would take advantage of this type of homeschool/public school arrangement here in Grosse Pointe. Therefore it would not be a burden on the system.

 

Where would I start if I wanted to get this changed? Is this a school board decision? Or is this decision made in your office?

 

I am aware of the MHSAA ruling on eligibility for sports - yes, you did mention that in our meeting. My question was about the extra curriculars - robotics, in particular. I'm assuming that those activities are not under MHSAA rules as far as the definition of a parttime student as they are not sports.

 

I was hoping to find the definition of parttime student and can't. I was also hoping to find out if the school district is reimbursed from the state for a parttime student. She told me in our meeting that they weren't. I can't believe that's true. I did find a document that states that they are indeed counted on count day, but it doesn't say anything about money.

 

Any thoughts?

 

Thanks for your help thus far!

 

Off to write to Ms. Bazzett!!

[melmichigan]

My school district is given money for my DD to attend part-time, same as if she were dual enrolled with the local community college. So, this semester she is taking ELA, music, and art, as well as speech therapy and time with the social worker. They need to seat for one essential class, math, ELA, science, or history. She then also takes the MEAP for ELA only.

 

If they are counted on count day they are getting money. :)

 

Sadly, we are thinking of taking her out for Spring semester unless the middle school comes up with some different options for classes for next year. We meet with them after Thanksgiving break. We might again use the schools system once she is chronologically able to take high school classes and can dual enroll with the community college, since she has to seat for one class at the local high school for the district to have to pay for the CC classes.

Edited November 23, 2009 by melmichigan

[Jennifer in MI]

My school district is given money for my DD to attend part-time, same as if she were dual enrolled with the local community college. So, this semester she is taking ELA, music, and art, as well as speech therapy and time with the social worker. They need to seat for one essential class, math, ELA, science, or history. She then also takes the MEAP for ELA only.

 

If they are counted on count day they are getting money. :)

 

Sadly, we are thinking of taking her out for Spring semester unless the middle school comes up with some different options for classes for next year. We meet with them after Thanksgiving break. We might again use the schools system once she is chronologically able to take high school classes and can dual enroll with the community college.

 

Sounds like you have a great relationship with your local school. BTW - you are one of the friends I referred to in my letter!! I hope that was okay!

 

I may include this in my letter back to her - just the anecdotal evidence!

 

I hope you can work something out for next year! We're so frustrated we're considering just going with the community college. I just so wanted my ds to have the opportunity to participate on the robotics team.

[melmichigan]

Our local school has been great, partly because the principal has worked well with us and and kept an open mind. I don't know if that will happen in the middle school, already getting not so great vibes there. Our community college is looking better and better for high school options and seem much more open to working to meet my DD's needs. You might contact your local CC about robotics, often colleges have these types of activites as well. The Director of Curriculum for our PS even recommeneded we talk to them after our last conversation. ;) Her hands are somewhat tied by the Superintendant.

 

I would ask about Robotic League specifically, maybe in a different letter first. Often those types of activites aren't governed by the same rules as athletics. I would suggest making it more about meeting your sons needs then the rules/guidelines. You don't want to get in a confrontation, you are just trying to find something that works for your son. That is where the common ground is. Again, written policies, does it say you can't do something. HTH.

[Valerie in MI]

We are in Michigan as well. My daughter has only been allowed to take non-core classes such as music and art at the middle school. She is counted on count day and yes, they get money for her.

 

She did participate in one after-school activity last year with competition (an Odyssey of the Mind type thing). That's something that's paid for and run by parent organizations and volunteers. I just went directly to the volunteers running it and asked.

 

My son was on a high school level FIRST Robotics team last year but it had nothing to do with a school. Most of the schools in this part of the state don't have robotics teams anyway. It costs a ton of money to build the robot and be in the competitions so teams need corporate sponsors. Most of the teams are sponsored by companies and run by parent volunteers. I know 4-H is trying to be involved with Robotics teams so that might be a contact for you as well. You might consider starting your own team with a group of homeschoolers....it's easy to get an established team to mentor your team as that's part of the FIRST culture. A high school based team might be too big anyway. Your son might not get hands-on work with the robot until he's a senior.

 

I know of another district in Michigan where they do allow the homeschooled students to take core classes, either online or at a community college (this is new this year) but the school district had to get a "seat waver" from the state and it was three years in the making to get past county objectors, etc. I can put you in touch with the parent that was deeply involved in making this happen if you're interested.

 

Valerie