Spy Car Posted October 14, 2009 Share Posted October 14, 2009 Now Bill, you know very well that the premise is false. :-) David, Abraham, Peter, and many others, made plenty of mistakes, even grieviously sinned. However, they got back up, dusted themselves off, and turned their minds and hearts back to God, time and time again. Perhaps it would be better stated "True faith always perseveres." Which premise? The premise that "True faith always leads to right action?" I'm willing to accept that's a false premise. Kathleen, what say you? As a Christian, I do not disagree with this statement. If we are making this life more bearable and pleasant for others, we are serving God. I'd add further that a good deed is a good dead no matter what a persons state of "faith." Bill Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sunshine Posted October 14, 2009 Share Posted October 14, 2009 I'd add further that a good deed is a good dead no matter what a persons state of "faith." Bill A good deed is a good dead....?:lol: sorry couldn't resist!!:D Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spy Car Posted October 14, 2009 Share Posted October 14, 2009 I'd add further that a good deed is a good dead no matter what a persons state of "faith." Bill A good deed is a good dead....?:lol: sorry couldn't resist!!:D Freudian slip? :D Too good :lol: Bill Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
canadianmum Posted October 14, 2009 Share Posted October 14, 2009 My pleasure! I actually wrote out a wordy post to reply to your question, Carmen, and it got stopped because of my incompetence with this whole thing. Providential? Maybe. The short answer is a book I read that really challenged and changed my thinking and theology, The Invitation, by Michael Davidson, Xulon Press. It's amazing and a really good read. I'm really annoyed I couldn't use my original answer, but oh well. Maybe it was better lost. Feel free to ask me to clarify. This is all I got after losing that wordy reply! blessings, Nancy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
canadianmum Posted October 14, 2009 Share Posted October 14, 2009 OK, folks, not that this thread isn't fascinating (I got lost, and found this one - some really great thoughts and arguments! Congrats!) but I posted this to the wrong thread. So sorry. But feel free to read the book. I'd recommend it to anyone! Nancy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
canadianmum Posted October 14, 2009 Share Posted October 14, 2009 Can you tell I'm new to this? I didn't know that so many replies had taken place, and didn't recognize the "legalism" thread anymore when I was rerouted to the end of the posts! Is this normal? And can I reply to Bill's comment re. faith vs. faithful? I think they are two different words. Faith is that which comes into play at the time of realizing God's grace in Jesus' death on the cross and resurrection, and believing (through faith) that this event ransoms one from eternal death. Faithful, however, refers to actions that would be seen as consistent with one's beliefs or words. One is a subject, the other is...not. No, it's an adjective (?) Do you see what I mean? If those words aren't used correctly, your logical statement falls apart - which I think it did. blessings, Nancy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BMW Posted October 14, 2009 Author Share Posted October 14, 2009 Hey, I started the legalism question and I love all of the posts that are making me think! Keep it going! I don't mind one bit if this conversations veers off of my original question! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spy Car Posted October 14, 2009 Share Posted October 14, 2009 Can you tell I'm new to this? I didn't know that so many replies had taken place, and didn't recognize the "legalism" thread anymore when I was rerouted to the end of the posts! Is this normal? And can I reply to Bill's comment re. faith vs. faithful? I think they are two different words. Faith is that which comes into play at the time of realizing God's grace in Jesus' death on the cross and resurrection, and believing (through faith) that this event ransoms one from eternal death. Faithful, however, refers to actions that would be seen as consistent with one's beliefs or words. One is a subject, the other is...not. No, it's an adjective (?) Do you see what I mean? If those words aren't used correctly, your logical statement falls apart - which I think it did.blessings, Nancy. Change the wording to a person of true faith would always have to act "rightly". Which would have to be true if the premise "True faith always leads to right action" is a true statement. And if the above is true, and if it is also true that no one always acts rightly. Then logically no one has "true faith." Because true faith means unwavering right action (at least according to this premise). Bill Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spy Car Posted October 14, 2009 Share Posted October 14, 2009 Nope. Not what I am saying. Obviously believers are not perfect. Only Christ was ever perfect. I have no problem acknowledging, as you say, that I am and everyone else for that matter is imperfect. Our righteousness has been imparted to us through Jesus Christ, the only human who ever lived a sinless life, who was also Divine God in the flesh. That's the amazing thing. While we were yet sinners Christ died for us. I am saying that if a person has true faith he will be motivated by love for His Savior to obey His word which will necessarily lead to good works. If someone claims to have faith but does not live a life of obedience to God's word then his faith is dead. Here's an article that might help: http://www.angelfire.com/va/sovereigngrace/law.grace.right.html Kathleen, you didn't even attempt to address the logic of your premise, and my questioning of its validity, and instead replied with (forgive the expression) a "boiler-plate" answer that doesn't answer the questions raised. Intellectually, that's a cop-out. Love you :D Bill Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spy Car Posted October 14, 2009 Share Posted October 14, 2009 Hey, I started the legalism question and I love all of the posts that are making me think! Keep it going! I don't mind one bit if this conversations veers off of my original question! Since we are going far-afield (with your permission) I'll give you my own unorthodox and non-binding definition of legalism. To me legalism is doing things that, if God didn't exist or if ones faith were all wrong, wouldn't help anyone. They might even be detrimental to oneself or others, and would bring no light or healing to the world. They are distinct from good deeds and good works that are good if God exists and are still good if that is not the case. My 2 cents. Bill Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kathleen in VA Posted October 14, 2009 Share Posted October 14, 2009 Kathleen, you didn't even attempt to address the logic of your premise, and my questioning of its validity, and instead replied with (forgive the expression) a "boiler-plate" answer that doesn't answer the questions raised. Intellectually, that's a cop-out. Love you :D Bill Hey, Bill. The premise that true faith always produces right action does not necessarily mean that it produces right action 100 percent of the time. A person can possess a true faith in Christ and falter and fumble and make mistakes. I meant that true faith will always eventually manifest itself in right action. It is a process of renewing the mind (Romans 12:1) by availing oneself to the means of grace (Bible study, prayer, fellowship with other believers) that sanctifies a believer over time. Sometimes that results in immediate action (i.e., the new believer who quits smoking or gives up an addiction), but more often, it is more like peeling layers off an onion. The old man must be conquered. The thing about true faith, though, is that since it is a gift from God, He will also supply the grace to walk in good works by it. That's what the article I cited earlier covers. It is the process of sanctification. I think it's the word "always" which I perhaps shouldn't have used, but I still think it fits if you consider that it points to an eventuality not a constant state of affairs. There is a phenomenon going on the so-called church nowadays that is called "easy-believism" (sp?) which basically tells folks that all they have to do is say "I believe in Jesus" and they are now Christians. Well, the Bible says that the demons believe in Jesus. It's not enough to have an intellectual assent that Jesus is the Son of God. Faith is a gift from God. He chooses whom he will give it to based on His wisdom, not our works or anything about us. James was saying that if a person says he has faith but is not walking in the good works that God prepared for him (Eph 2.10) then he is deceived - not a true believer. Galatians 5:22-23 lists the fruit of the Spirit - these are the fruits that a true believer always eventually will grow. Does that make more sense? It's very late and my mind is a bit fuzzy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Heather in Neverland Posted October 14, 2009 Share Posted October 14, 2009 I'd add further that a good deed is a good deed no matter what a persons state of "faith." Bill That is absolutely true. A good deed IS a good deed but it won't grant you salvation which is what legalism is all about. Legalism is attaching salvation to good deeds, sometimes as a prerequisite, sometimes as an on-going requirement. Our good deeds separate from Christ are "filthy rags" according to the bible. It is the righteousness of Christ that covers us and the grace of God that saves us. Telling someone if you choose to head cover or not drink alcohol or stay married to an abusive husband you are a true christian (or a 'better' christian) is legalistic. Likewise, telling someone they are NOT a christian if they drink alcohol or don't head cover or divorce their abusive husband is legalistic. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lovedtodeath Posted October 15, 2009 Share Posted October 15, 2009 Kathleen, you didn't even attempt to address the logic of your premise, and my questioning of its validity, and instead replied with (forgive the expression) a "boiler-plate" answer that doesn't answer the questions raised. Intellectually, that's a cop-out. Love you :D Bill This is not an official debate. I feel like treating every conversation as such becomes tiresome. Love you :D Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spy Car Posted October 15, 2009 Share Posted October 15, 2009 Hey, Bill. The premise that true faith always produces right action does not necessarily mean that it produces right action 100 percent of the time. What??? ALWAYS means 100% of the time. That is the definition of "always", no? Other-wise the premise would have to be true faith sometimes produces right action. And that sometimes true faith does not produce right action, it produces wrong action. Either that or the person acting wrongly doesn't have true faith. But it has to be one way or another, or there is no logic. A person can possess a true faith in Christ and falter and fumble and make mistakes. OK. But then true faith doesn't always right action. I meant that true faith will always eventually manifest itself in right action. It is a process of renewing the mind (Romans 12:1) by availing oneself to the means of grace (Bible study, prayer, fellowship with other believers) that sanctifies a believer over time. Sometimes that results in immediate action (i.e., the new believer who quits smoking or gives up an addiction), but more often, it is more like peeling layers off an onion. The old man must be conquered. The thing about true faith, though, is that since it is a gift from God, He will also supply the grace to walk in good works by it. That's what the article I cited earlier covers. It is the process of sanctification. I think it's the word "always" which I perhaps shouldn't have used, but I still think it fits if you consider that it points to an eventuality not a constant state of affairs. Well this definition makes a mockery of behaving correctly, or engaging in "right" actions. This excuses wrongful behavior under some belief in eventual sanctification. It's fine to have a theological belief in sanctification, but to conflate it with moral and ethical behavior in the here-and-now just doesn't hold. If one steals today, the idea they might rehabilitate themselves in the future doesn't make stealing today "right action." There is a phenomenon going on the so-called church nowadays that is called "easy-believism" (sp?) which basically tells folks that all they have to do is say "I believe in Jesus" and they are now Christians. And worse than that there are people preaching that work are irrelevant. The "I'm not perfect, just forgiven" mentality has (IMO) been highly detrimental in undermining the faith's potential for doing good. Faith is a gift from God. He chooses whom he will give it to based on His wisdom, not our works or anything about us. James was saying that if a person says he has faith but is not walking in the good works that God prepared for him (Eph 2.10) then he is deceived - not a true believer. Galatians 5:22-23 lists the fruit of the Spirit - these are the fruits that a true believer always eventually will grow. Well, people have choices to make. One can seek to better this world, or one can choose other-wise. If it is personal faith that brings people to right action, great. If they come to right action in another fashion, (for me) than is fine as well. People are beings that can tell right from wrong. And I think it's disturbing not to recognize that intrinsic capacity. We must take responsibility for our own actions, for good or ill. Does that make more sense? It's very late and my mind is a bit fuzzy. Not complete sense yet :D Sorry if I'm making your brain hurt. Bill Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lovedtodeath Posted October 15, 2009 Share Posted October 15, 2009 True faith improves a person. If you see them before they have attained faith and after, then the fruitages of the spirit will become apparent. If you take a group of True Christians and a group of Non-christians then the fruitages of the spirit will become apparent. There are signs to look for. There are ways to determine the right religion. If one believes in the Bible, then they can find scriptures that will point them to Christs followers (as a group), and help to determine the conterfeits (as a group). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spy Car Posted October 15, 2009 Share Posted October 15, 2009 That is absolutely true. A good deed IS a good deed but it won't grant you salvation which is what legalism is all about. Legalism is attaching salvation to good deeds, sometimes as a prerequisite, sometimes as an on-going requirement. Our good deeds separate from Christ are "filthy rags" according to the bible. It is the righteousness of Christ that covers us and the grace of God that saves us. But faith without works is dead. Correct? And a "dead" faith seems (to me, no great expert) like it would not meet the conditions of "salvation" according to the Christian Bible. That's correct, right? So good works and good deeds seem more bound up with salvation that you seem to be suggesting, from my understanding of things. Telling someone if you choose to head cover or not drink alcohol or stay married to an abusive husband you are a true christian (or a 'better' christian) is legalistic. Likewise, telling someone they are NOT a christian if they drink alcohol or don't head cover or divorce their abusive husband is legalistic. I see that. But these meet my definition of legalism being things actions that would not be judged to be "good" absent a divine being. Bill Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sunshine Posted October 15, 2009 Share Posted October 15, 2009 What??? ALWAYS means 100% of the time. That is the definition of "always", no? Other-wise the premise would have to be true faith sometimes produces right action. And that sometimes true faith does not produce right action, it produces wrong action. Either that or the person acting wrongly doesn't have true faith. But it has to be one way or another, or there is no logic. Bill, one of the things that you are missing is that faith is supernatural. It is not something that you decide to believe in. Faith is a gift. It defies understanding. So when you take a completely degenerate man, which we are before we are saved, sometimes it takes a while for that man's actions which are habits formed for years, something like an addiction, to be overcome. We have to learn to depend on God and that is something that man's pride finds hard to do. So a new Christian may or may not show fruits of the spirit in his initial transition from sinner to saint. There will be some stumbling and during that stumbling there may be a few fall downs into previous sin. The difference is, the Spirit will not let a Christian continue in the sin.He will crush the spirit of the Christian, and that usually leads to fuller dependence on God, that leads to the sins being crushed by God's will and not man's, who is unable to stand own his own strength. This leads to a man full of God's strength which is a strong man indeed. OK. But then true faith doesn't always right action. And then right action follow because it is God who is in control Well this definition makes a mockery of behaving correctly, or engaging in "right" actions. This excuses wrongful behavior under some belief in eventual sanctification. It's fine to have a theological belief in sanctification, but to conflate it with moral and ethical behavior in the here-and-now just doesn't hold. If one steals today, the idea they might rehabilitate themselves in the future doesn't make stealing today "right action." We are talking about good deeds, not stealing. A thief who is saved is very unlikely to steal again. If he is truly converted to Christianity. There are many who claim to be a Christian but few who qualify. The qualifications are in the Bible and are very specific. And worse than that there are people preaching that work are irrelevant. The "I'm not perfect, just forgiven" mentality has (IMO) been highly detrimental in undermining the faith's potential for doing good. No one is perfect. There was only one who was able to walk the earth and never sin, in thought, action or deed. This mentality is more for the hope given to others who think they have to change their life before they become a Christian, when in reality, becoming a Christian changes your life. Faith is a gift from God. He chooses whom he will give it to based on His wisdom, not our works or anything about us. James was saying that if a person says he has faith but is not walking in the good works that God prepared for him (Eph 2.10) then he is deceived - not a true believer. Galatians 5:22-23 lists the fruit of the Spirit - these are the fruits that a true believer always eventually will grow. Well, people have choices to make. One can seek to better this world, or one can choose other-wise. If it is personal faith that brings people to right action, great. If they come to right action in another fashion, (for me) than is fine as well. People are beings that can tell right from wrong. And I think it's disturbing not to recognize that intrinsic capacity. We must take responsibility for our own actions, for good or ill. The Bible explains this: "there is none good, not even one." Romans 3:11-13. Most people do not feel a need to be good or to choose right and wrong. In Romans 1:19-21 God stated that it is inside man to know right and wrong and that man has it inside him to recognize that there is a God. The intrinsic selfishness of man prevents him from desiring to do what is right. There is no greater evil than what man perpetrates upon man. Not complete sense yet :D Sorry if I'm making your brain hurt. Now my brain hurts and I am going to go watch a BBC mystery with a cup of tea!:D Bill :grouphug: I just feel like a group hug here! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spy Car Posted October 15, 2009 Share Posted October 15, 2009 True faith improves a person. If you see them before they have attained faith and after, then the fruitages of the spirit will become apparent. I guess it begs the question. "what's true faith?" If people claim true faith do we just take them at their world? Or is "true faith" some very rare state of being a very few experience? I have little doubt that people, especially those in bad situations (in prison for example) can turn their lives around though religion. But I also believe people can change their lives by a "systematic change of behavior" or "from a renewed heart", but those ideas are ridiculed by people like Bill Baldwin. And if the transformative power of faith is so powerful, why don't we see shinning examples of religious communities behaving in ways that are so obviously more righteous? But is that what we see? I don't think so. Seems to me the "faithful" and the faithless are pretty hard to distinguish based on their behavior, ethics, honesty, or any other criterion of "good action." Seems to me no better, no worse than anyone else. If you take a group of True Christians and a group of Non-christians then the fruitages of the spirit will become apparent. What I'm saying is I sincerely don't see the fruit. I heard a good deal of "marketing" but the goods are indistinguishable from those of non-Christians. There are signs to look for. There are ways to determine the right religion. If one believes in the Bible, then they can find scriptures that will point them to Christs followers (as a group), and help to determine the conterfeits (as a group). Seems to be Jesus was pretty demanding. I don't know how many people truly love their neighbors as they love themselves, but the numbers seem small. And no greater in percentage among Christians than non-Christians. And that's not what I would expect if I were to accept your premise. Bill Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sunshine Posted October 15, 2009 Share Posted October 15, 2009 But faith without works is dead. Correct? And a "dead" faith seems (to me, no great expert) like it would not meet the conditions of "salvation" according to the Christian Bible. That's correct, right? So good works and good deeds seem more bound up with salvation that you seem to be suggesting, from my understanding of things. Ok last post, I promise. Works follow faith. They are a result of faith. You cannot have faith, which is from God, a supernatural gift, without it resulting in works. It just follows salvation, it is a result of salvation not a requirement of salvation. The Bible is stating that if you do not have works then it is questionable if you have a true faith. Remember many claim to be saved and believe but God will say to them "depart from me you workers of iniquity, I never knew you." Luke 13:27, Matthew 7:20-22 I see that. But these meet my definition of legalism being things actions that would not be judged to be "good" absent a divine being. Bill shhhhh, I wear a head covering in church:D Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lovedtodeath Posted October 15, 2009 Share Posted October 15, 2009 Thanks Sunshine, you made my job easier! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spy Car Posted October 15, 2009 Share Posted October 15, 2009 Ok last post, I promise. Works follow faith. They are a result of faith. You cannot have faith, which is from God, a supernatural gift, without it resulting in works. It just follows salvation, it is a result of salvation not a requirement of salvation. The Bible is stating that if you do not have works then it is questionable if you have a true faith. Remember many claim to be saved and believe but God will say to them "depart from me you workers of iniquity, I never knew you." Luke 13:27, Matthew 7:20-22 So you agree with the proposition: Faith without works is dead. Correct? Bill Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peek a Boo Posted October 15, 2009 Share Posted October 15, 2009 (edited) So you agree with the proposition: Faith without works is dead. Correct? Bill correct. but "works" don't all look the same, and we're still imperfect sinners. ;) I would posit that some "works" are so minute as to be missed by many people, so we need to be very very careful creating a judgment about a person's faith based on what we observe. --in fact, we are to be letting God Himself make that Supreme Judgment. It's hard to prove a negative. :) This might also be a good time to read up on the doctrine of total depravity --which does NOT mean that we all do bad things, but explains that True Good only comes from God. also: salvation is not bound up in deeds: Christ gave salvation to the thief on the cross --i doubt the thief had much time or opportunity to "do" any "good works" that we try to pigeonhole with our human wisdom. People can be saved and not get around to doing good works that are readily observed. People can't be saved and continue to REJECT -FIGHT against --excuse repeatedly-- doing ANY good deeds at all. Edited October 15, 2009 by Peek a Boo "od"? lol! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sunshine Posted October 15, 2009 Share Posted October 15, 2009 So you agree with the proposition: Faith without works is dead. Correct? Bill yes and as Peek said, everyones works are different and some are monumental and cannot be missed while others are so quiet and in secret that you may never know they happened. But God does. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sunshine Posted October 15, 2009 Share Posted October 15, 2009 oh wow, I am such a liar, I said last post and here I am again. I think I am addicted to this forum!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sunshine Posted October 15, 2009 Share Posted October 15, 2009 Thanks Sunshine, you made my job easier! here to help m'dear! Its a blooming miracle anyone can understand my ramblings!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lovedtodeath Posted October 15, 2009 Share Posted October 15, 2009 oh wow, I am such a liar, I said last post and here I am again. I think I am addicted to this forum!! Welcome! I am slowly adding more victims. Misery loves company.;) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spy Car Posted October 15, 2009 Share Posted October 15, 2009 yes and as Peek said, everyones works are different and some are monumental and cannot be missed while others are so quiet and in secret that you may never know they happened. But God does. Hey, I count holding a door for someone as a Mitzvah. It's the small kindnesses that add up to a better world. And if people are kinder to one another for their having faith, I'm all for it. Bill Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sunshine Posted October 15, 2009 Share Posted October 15, 2009 Hey, I count holding a door for someone as a Mitzvah. It's the small kindnesses that add up to a better world. And if people are kinder to one another for their having faith, I'm all for it. Bill Now remember I am from the south. What is a Mitzvah? Hey we can hijack the thread from here!! I will check on answer tomorrow!! Have early Dr appt in morning and must have British murder fix before going to bed! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peek a Boo Posted October 15, 2009 Share Posted October 15, 2009 yes and as Peek said, everyones works are different and some are monumental and cannot be missed while others are so quiet and in secret that you may never know they happened. But God does. also..... we must remember that there Are No Contradictions in Scripture. Since we have a plethora of scripture about salvation and faith, James must be understood within that framework: in the context of faith. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
justamouse Posted October 15, 2009 Share Posted October 15, 2009 I think I liked a lot of everyone's terms of what legalism was. After being raised in a very fundamental home, I'm free indeed. Faith and works is an interesting discussion. And that quoted scripture is beautiful. (I do love a good KJV for wording) Kinda makes me snicker because it sounds so bleeding heart liberal. :p Anywho, I think works come organically from knowing Him. It's not something we make a list of and get a gold star for. It's sub rosa.. organic. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lovedtodeath Posted October 15, 2009 Share Posted October 15, 2009 You know it's funny, I have never seen/heard the word salvation as much as I do on these boards, I used to attend 4 religions meetings per week and I read 4 religious magazines every month and 4 religious books every year. (and scriptures, of course) All of those 4's are a coincidence, promise. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spy Car Posted October 15, 2009 Share Posted October 15, 2009 Now remember I am from the south. What is a Mitzvah? In this context, an act of human kindness. Bill Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Erica in PA Posted October 15, 2009 Share Posted October 15, 2009 James doesn't say the faith of those who perform no works is "questionable", he said it is dead. Yes, you're right about that. Thanks for clarifying. What I was thinking of was the idea that from a third-party position, it's rare that we can look at a person and say with certainty, "That person has no works, therefore he must not be saved." We can't always see all the changes that God might be making in that person's life and heart, and judge merely by the actions that we observe whether he has enough "fruit" to prove that he has saving faith. So I personally would tend to think that someone I knew well, who I knew repeatedly sinned in major ways, and had no observable good works, that person's faith in my sight might be "questionable." So if that person asked me for my advice, I would encourage him/her to examine their heart and see whether or not they are truly in the faith. Of course, with God there is no "questionable," we are either alive in faith or dead in sin (as James notes). But I was referring to our limited perspective as fellow humans. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peek a Boo Posted October 15, 2009 Share Posted October 15, 2009 You know it's funny, I have never seen/heard the word salvation as much as I do on these boards, I used to attend 4 religions meetings per week and I read 4 religious magazines every month and 4 religious books every year. (and scriptures, of course) All of those 4's are a coincidence, promise. Hey -- you have a divine THREE! 3 sets of 4 :) and 3x4 = 12. 12 sons of Jacob - 12 tribes of Israel. but yeah -- we have more religious discussion on our secular homeschool loop than our religious one, lol. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lovedtodeath Posted October 15, 2009 Share Posted October 15, 2009 but yeah -- we have more religious discussion on our secular homeschool loop than our religious one, lol.I get plenty of religious discussion. It is just that JW's don't put a heavy emphasis on salvation. I wonder if that is a Protestant thing or if Orthodox/Catholic tend to do that too. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spy Car Posted October 15, 2009 Share Posted October 15, 2009 Yes, you're right about that. Thanks for clarifying. What I was thinking of was the idea that from a third-party position, it's rare that we can look at a person and say with certainty, "That person has no works, therefore he must not be saved." We can't always see all the changes that God might be making in that person's life and heart, and judge merely by the actions that we observe whether he has enough "fruit" to prove that he has saving faith. So I personally would tend to think that someone I knew well, who I knew repeatedly sinned in major ways, and had no observable good works, that person's faith in my sight might be "questionable." So if that person asked me for my advice, I would encourage him/her to examine their heart and see whether or not they are truly in the faith. Of course, with God there is no "questionable," we are either alive in faith or dead in sin (as James notes). But I was referring to our limited perspective as fellow humans. I really wasn't trying to make the point that we should be judging others. Ourselves? Yes. We can look at ourselves. I just question a lack of "emphasis" on doing good-works that seems prevalent in contemporary conservative Protestantism. As if a person will be charged with trying to "buy" salvation on their own if they do good, or aim to do good. "Works" seems almost a "pejorative". Do you know what I'm saying? And it seems detrimental to individuals, and to society at large. It also seems to me to be anti-scriptural and in contravention to Jesus' message as I (in my limited fashion) understand it. Bill Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Erica in PA Posted October 15, 2009 Share Posted October 15, 2009 I really wasn't trying to make the point that we should be judging others. Ourselves? Yes. We can look at ourselves. I just question a lack of "emphasis" on doing good-works that seems prevalent in contemporary conservative Protestantism. As if a person will be charged with trying to "buy" salvation on their own if they do good, or aim to do good. "Works" seems almost a "pejorative". Do you know what I'm saying? And it seems detrimental to individuals, and to society at large. It also seems to me to be anti-scriptural and in contravention to Jesus' message as I (in my limited fashion) understand it. Bill I knew you weren't... I just wanted to clarify why I used the word "questionable" instead of dead. And yes, I do know what you're saying, and to some degree I think you have a point. I do think we evangelicals have sometimes gone too far, and made it too easy for someone to claim salvation simply by saying, "I believe." As a result, I believe that there are a lot people going around claiming to be saved when they are not, and I find that very sad!! I think a lot of people have false security in their salvation, because all they have been told they need to do is "pray this prayer." So I agree with you, that is a problem, and something evangelicals have not handled very well. On the other hand, the Bible is clear that salvation *is* by faith alone. Ephesians 2:8-9 spells this out very clearly "For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not of works so that no one may boast", as well as countless other verses that I am sure you're familiar with about believing on the Lord Jesus Christ and you will be saved, etc. Really, the doctrine of salvation by faith alone completely permeates the New Testament. As does the idea that someone who has truly been saved by faith, will show good works, and will be transformed into a new creation in Christ. So I really think it's two different issues: 1. What does the Bible teach saves a person? Answer: faith in Jesus Christ and accepting his payment on the cross for our sin. 2. Are good works important in the life of a Christian? Yes, God demands obedience (which is what good works are); in fact they are the *proof* that salvation has taken place. And that latter is where I don't feel enough emphasis has been done, which is probably what you have picked up on. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spy Car Posted October 15, 2009 Share Posted October 15, 2009 I knew you weren't... I just wanted to clarify why I used the word "questionable" instead of dead. And yes, I do know what you're saying, and to some degree I think you have a point. I do think we evangelicals have sometimes gone too far, and made it too easy for someone to claim salvation simply by saying, "I believe." As a result, I believe that there are a lot people going around claiming to be saved when they are not, and I find that very sad!! I think a lot of people have false security in their salvation, because all they have been told they need to do is "pray this prayer." So I agree with you, that is a problem, and something evangelicals have not handled very well. We have some common-ground, but it is interesting to me how our concerns (quite naturally) diverge. You care more that people claimed to be saved who may not be. Where I'm concerned that the motivation to do good-works is undermined. On the other hand, the Bible is clear that salvation *is* by faith alone. Ephesians 2:8-9 spells this out very clearly "For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not of works so that no one may boast", as well as countless other verses that I am sure you're familiar with about believing on the Lord Jesus Christ and you will be saved, etc. Really, the doctrine of salvation by faith alone completely permeates the New Testament. I would say that is the message that permeates the portions of the Bible attributed to Paul. Other portions (including James 2 and the message of the synoptic gospels) to my mind have a very different call to action. So I really think it's two different issues: 1. What does the Bible teach saves a person? Answer: faith in Jesus Christ and accepting his payment on the cross for our sin. 2. Are good works important in the life of a Christian? Yes, God demands obedience (which is what good works are); in fact they are the *proof* that salvation has taken place. And that latter is where I don't feel enough emphasis has been done, which is probably what you have picked up on. On matters of faith and salvation I'll have to demur. But on the last point I'll emphatically agree. The way good-works have been almost vilified, as if they are almost "anti-faith" is a very strange place for a religion based on following the message of Jesus to be in. Bill Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lovedtodeath Posted October 15, 2009 Share Posted October 15, 2009 Bill, I agree with a lot of what you are saying about emphasis, but I disagree that good works are "villified". Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TXMomof4 Posted October 15, 2009 Share Posted October 15, 2009 I guess it begs the question. "what's true faith?" If people claim true faith do we just take them at their world? Or is "true faith" some very rare state of being a very few experience? I have little doubt that people, especially those in bad situations (in prison for example) can turn their lives around though religion. But I also believe people can change their lives by a "systematic change of behavior" or "from a renewed heart", but those ideas are ridiculed by people like Bill Baldwin. And if the transformative power of faith is so powerful, why don't we see shinning examples of religious communities behaving in ways that are so obviously more righteous? But is that what we see? I don't think so. Seems to me the "faithful" and the faithless are pretty hard to distinguish based on their behavior, ethics, honesty, or any other criterion of "good action." Seems to me no better, no worse than anyone else. What I'm saying is I sincerely don't see the fruit. I heard a good deal of "marketing" but the goods are indistinguishable from those of non-Christians. Seems to be Jesus was pretty demanding. I don't know how many people truly love their neighbors as they love themselves, but the numbers seem small. And no greater in percentage among Christians than non-Christians. And that's not what I would expect if I were to accept your premise. Bill I seriously doubt you've seen and heard of all the Christians who are living with true faith. You don't hear about the people truly doing good on a daily basis. You see the people on TV and those who have screwed up. You don't see the class at church who got together and bought a new car for a couple. You don't see the people who did my yard work the entire time my husband was deployed. You don't see the man at church who put a young man through college. Saying you don't see the fruits doesn't mean they aren't there. I guarantee they are there and are farther reaching than you could imagine. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spy Car Posted October 15, 2009 Share Posted October 15, 2009 Bill, I agree with a lot of what you are saying about emphasis, but I disagree that good works are "villified". I said "almost vilified". Like if you mentioned the need for "good-works" people would roll their eyes, and quote "by faith alone." You must know what I mean? Bill Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lovedtodeath Posted October 15, 2009 Share Posted October 15, 2009 I said "almost vilified". Like if you mentioned the need for "good-works" people would roll their eyes, and quote "by faith alone." You must know what I mean? Bill Ah, yes. Exactly. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lovedtodeath Posted October 15, 2009 Share Posted October 15, 2009 "HE has told you oh earthling man what is good. And what is Jehovah asking back from you but to exercise justice and to love kindness and to be modest in walking with your God?" Micah 6:8 "This is what the love of God means, that you observe his commandments and yet his commandments are not burdensome." 1 John 5:3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spy Car Posted October 15, 2009 Share Posted October 15, 2009 I seriously doubt you've seen and heard of all the Christians who are living with true faith. You don't hear about the people truly doing good on a daily basis. You see the people on TV and those who have screwed up. You don't see the class at church who got together and bought a new car for a couple. You don't see the people who did my yard work the entire time my husband was deployed. You don't see the man at church who put a young man through college. Saying you don't see the fruits doesn't mean they aren't there. I guarantee they are there and are farther reaching than you could imagine. You are making an extreme and caricatured interpretation of what I was saying. I'm fully aware there are a great many Christians who perform acts of charity and human kindness. There are also Jews, Muslims, and non-religious folks who perform acts of charity and human kindness. I'm not saying there are is no fruit or that one group of people is good and another is bad. Not at all. I'm just not seeing any vast qualitative differences in real-life between those of one faith vs another, or between people of faith, and those with none. I just don't. Bill Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lovedtodeath Posted October 15, 2009 Share Posted October 15, 2009 Works follow faith. They are a result of faith. You cannot have faith, which is from God, a supernatural gift, without it resulting in works. It just follows salvation, it is a result of salvation not a requirement of salvation. The Bible is stating that if you do not have works then it is questionable if you have a true faith. Remember many claim to be saved and believe but God will say to them "depart from me you workers of iniquity, I never knew you." Luke 13:27, Matthew 7:20-22Bill, I think Sunshine explained that phenomenon well. No doubt you have run into plenty of whom Jesus is speaking in the above referenced scriptures. No doubt we all have. I know I have. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spy Car Posted October 15, 2009 Share Posted October 15, 2009 Bill, I think Sunshine explained that phenomenon well. No doubt you have run into plenty of whom Jesus is speaking in the above referenced scriptures. No doubt we all have. I know I have. I'm not sure I'm following your meaning. Could you restate? Bill (occasionally thick-skulled :D) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lovedtodeath Posted October 15, 2009 Share Posted October 15, 2009 There are people who claim to be Christians and really believe that they are, but they really aren't. That is why Jesus says... "I never knew you" when they say "Lord, Lord, did we not ... in your name?" I was so thankful Sunshine was the one to say it, not being a Protestant myself and not wanting anyone to be reading meaning into my posting the scripture. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sunshine Posted October 15, 2009 Share Posted October 15, 2009 You are not thick skulled Bill. Just HARD HEADED!! :lol: Sorry couldn't resist! just kidding! One thing to note is that this is a time in history of serious depravity. It is spoken of in the Bible at length. In the end times (which could be a month or 500 years for all we know of God's timing) people will be idolators, lovers of themselves, cruel, perverted and it will be a global thing. So you will see less good and more bad...unfortunately. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lovedtodeath Posted October 15, 2009 Share Posted October 15, 2009 It is 2 Timothy chapter 3. verse 5 says "having a form of godly devotion but proving false to its power." Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sunshine Posted October 15, 2009 Share Posted October 15, 2009 Got the baby on your lap don't you? How is the weaning going? oops I am determined to hijack this thread! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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