s/o - The Problem I Have with Calvinism

[lionfamily1999]

Well, OK, but to be fair, having been on the receiving end, I can attest that Christianity provides a haven for some folks who build their lives and overall sense of well-being around being right, which they prove to themselves by arraying themselves with whatever the dominant paradigm happens to be. (Read: I must be right, look at all these people here with me!) That mentality lends itself to all sorts of nastiness, political, social, religious, etc...as well as an inflated sense of being able to make the "right" decisions for all people, since it's all for the good of their souls, after all.

 

While I agree with you and Tami, in America today, Christianity has the numbers on its side. If I saw evidence of Christian folk doing some watchdogging on that front, I'd be reassured.

Do you mean, watching to keep fellow Christians from having a sense of being "right?"

 

While I do agree that people should not judge others, which is what I think you're getting at, I can't see one Christian telling another they are "wrong," if they aren't. How they go about it, how much pride they derive from it could be a problem, but if they're preaching the gospel, so to speak, then they aren't wrong. They're wrong in spirit, but not in word, does that make sense?

 

They puff themselves up, is that what you mean?

 

If so, that's a tricky thing to watch dog. You (not you, but you, iykwIm) agree with what they're saying, but take issue with how they're saying it. I'm not sure how you could watch-dog or stop that sort of thing, I think it's more up to their spiritual leaders to lead them back. Of course, ime, those folks do tend to be in positions of power, in which case it's up to the sheep to find a shepherd, iykwIm.

[Saille]

Do you mean, watching to keep fellow Christians from having a sense of being "right?"

 

While I do agree that people should not judge others, which is what I think you're getting at, I can't see one Christian telling another they are "wrong," if they aren't. How they go about it, how much pride they derive from it could be a problem, but if they're preaching the gospel, so to speak, then they aren't wrong. They're wrong in spirit, but not in word, does that make sense?

 

They puff themselves up, is that what you mean?

 

If so, that's a tricky thing to watch dog. You (not you, but you, iykwIm) agree with what they're saying, but take issue with how they're saying it. I'm not sure how you could watch-dog or stop that sort of thing, I think it's more up to their spiritual leaders to lead them back. Of course, ime, those folks do tend to be in positions of power, in which case it's up to the sheep to find a shepherd, iykwIm.

 

That's the crux of it, and I do agree that when it is going on in someone's *head*, it can be hard to watch. However, there are other times (and I think many secular homeschoolers have experienced this) where it descends into something nastier, such as rudeness in group settings, gossip, shunning, pointed leafleting, things we've discussed before such as proselytizing to kids without parent permission...and it conveys itself in the attitudes of children, too, when they are nasty about their peers' religious backgrounds. They heard it somewhere, yk? Usually, when that sort of thing is going on, more than one person knows about it. There's an opportunity for peer accountability there, but in the past, I haven't seen it. That's what I'm talking about.

 

If anyone has more questions about that, let's go to pm. I feel bad, b/c this is kind of a thread derail.

[Peek a Boo]

Since people seem to love to twist other peoples positions [mine included], let me make it clear that I believe that the message of Jesus in the gospels, and the Christian faith it (at least partially) inspired has brought a lot of good into the world. It's inspired kindness, compassion, and acts of charity in millions of people throughout the world.

 

wait a sec-- you mean the gospel as found in the BIBLE?

 

 

The Bible, hate to break it to you, is a collection of man-written tales, many borrowed and retold from the myths of other earlier cultures. It has no divine origin or authorship. People wrote these stories, for better or worse. Imperfect people, most of whom were seeking to find "goodness" (although their ideas on that front could be quite strange).

 

My problem is with a doctrine (an unChrist-like doctrine to my mind) that people are depraved, evil and born enemies of goodness. People who believe their fellow humans are evil tend to act in accordance with that belief. And yes, that goes against my humanistic beliefs.

 

an un-Christ-like doctrine? It seems pretty obvious that you mean an un-Spy Car-like doctrine.

so why do you think Christ had to die?

 

 

I don't for a second believe all Christians look at their brothers, sisters, and children as the spawn of evil. Obviously not. How could you love evil? And didn't Jesus tell us to love one another?

 

 

Jesus also said to Love God with all your heart, mind, and soul.

Are you doing that?

 

Jesus said to repent and do no more when it came to sin.

Jesus took a WHIP to the merchants in the temple and drove them out.

which Christ-like doctrine are you talking about?

Those who believe everyone are evil are not limited to one faith, or non-faith. You'll find atheistic Objectivists, Fascists, Communists, Satanists, racial supremacists, and many other flavors of human-haters embracing anti-humanism. And most Christians do not.

 

Being atheist, Objectivist, Fascist, Communist, Satanist, or racial supremist does not automatically make you a human-hater. It does, however, show a point of belief in how you wish to live in a society or what you want to worship. As you noted w/ the use of most, even a Christian is capable of hating people enough that they justify using force against another.

 

It seems that many have incorrectly assumed what is meant by "Total Depravity" [and Christian. and submission. and Theory. and design. ad nauseum.] and/or are rejecting the accurate portrayal of the doctrine in favor of a skewed personal perception that will feed directly into biases.

I would suggest that everyone read over the wiki link so we're on the same page.

 

Total depravity does not mean, however, that people are as evil as possible. Rather, it means that even the good which a person may intend is faulty in its premise, false in its motive, and weak in its implementation; and there is no mere refinement of natural capacities that can correct this condition. Thus, even acts of generosity and altruism are in fact egoist acts in disguise.[6]

Edited August 5, 2009 by Peek a Boo

[dangermom]

May I ask something about Reformed churches? I have to admit that I am harboring a lot of anger about Calvinism and Reformed theology these days. We have been friends with a family in our church for a long time, and over the past year the wife has decided to join a Reformed church. She says that she has given her life to Jesus (our own Christian church doesn't have Jesus in it).

 

OK, fine. She has every right to convert to whatever religion she likes and I don't object. But the fruit of this apparent conversion has been, as far as I can tell, nothing but bad. She has withdrawn from her very nice husband, and is on the verge of divorcing him. She has been neglecting her 5 lovely children, and emotionally manipulating them ("You can go to church with Mom and make Mom happy, or with Dad and make him happy." Dad hates this tactic.). Since the two oldest boys decided not to go with her, she has withdrawn from them and acted in ways so that she has lost their respect. She has become short tempered. She has dropped her former friends, except necessary contact. Her blog presents a shiny, happy facade that is mostly about church, a bit about her children, and nothing at all about her husband.

 

So, to my question: the pastor of this church, and his wife, encouraged her for a long time in deceiving her husband. She said nothing to anyone about her changing ideas for quite some time, but emailed the pastor every day and waited anxiously for his daily replies (which, in our church, would be considered totally inappropriate). She ordered books and materials to study which were sent to the pastor's home so that her husband wouldn't know. Something was so obviously wrong that her husband thought she was having an affair, but she refused to discuss anything with him.

 

How can this possibly be right? How can the pastor justify his actions? I don't understand all this at all, but it's certainly caused a lot of pain around here.

[Marylou]

That didn't mean He didn't LOVE man but He was fully aware, more aware than any one of us will ever be, of the sinfulness of man. To me, a mere study in history of the 20th century has firmed up again the depravity of man. It has been one train wreck after the other, and people left to themselves...leaders left with no one to keep checks & balances lead to death and destruction.

 

And men have written (and I've read) lengthy, dripping with sarcasm and contempt books of how we Christians are deluded.

 

How can anyone live in this world and NOT see depravity?????:confused:

 

And how does seeing myself and others realistically make me a "hater"? I just don't get that. Especially when we do the opposite; go out of our way to help others (no matter their religious affiliation). And no, I do not serve others to "win them to Christ". That's the Holy Spirit's role.

 

Well, off to read more Yahoo! news about 3 women who went to the gym today, but won't be seeing their families at supper tonight. So sad.

[Marylou]

May I ask something about Reformed churches? I have to admit that I am harboring a lot of anger about Calvinism and Reformed theology these days. We have been friends with a family in our church for a long time, and over the past year the wife has decided to join a Reformed church. She says that she has given her life to Jesus (our own Christian church doesn't have Jesus in it).

 

OK, fine. She has every right to convert to whatever religion she likes and I don't object. But the fruit of this apparent conversion has been, as far as I can tell, nothing but bad. She has withdrawn from her very nice husband, and is on the verge of divorcing him. She has been neglecting her 5 lovely children, and emotionally manipulating them ("You can go to church with Mom and make Mom happy, or with Dad and make him happy." Dad hates this tactic.). Since the two oldest boys decided not to go with her, she has withdrawn from them and acted in ways so that she has lost their respect. She has become short tempered. She has dropped her former friends, except necessary contact. Her blog presents a shiny, happy facade that is mostly about church, a bit about her children, and nothing at all about her husband.

 

So, to my question: the pastor of this church, and his wife, encouraged her for a long time in deceiving her husband. She said nothing to anyone about her changing ideas for quite some time, but emailed the pastor every day and waited anxiously for his daily replies (which, in our church, would be considered totally inappropriate). She ordered books and materials to study which were sent to the pastor's home so that her husband wouldn't know. Something was so obviously wrong that her husband thought she was having an affair, but she refused to discuss anything with him.

 

How can this possibly be right? How can the pastor justify his actions? I don't understand all this at all, but it's certainly caused a lot of pain around here.

 

Sure sounds like it COULD BE adultery to me. I guess I don't understand what you're looking for. Of course it's wrong to deceive your husband, and lots of other things are wrong, too.

[Kathleen in VA]

May I ask something about Reformed churches? I have to admit that I am harboring a lot of anger about Calvinism and Reformed theology these days. We have been friends with a family in our church for a long time, and over the past year the wife has decided to join a Reformed church. She says that she has given her life to Jesus (our own Christian church doesn't have Jesus in it).

 

OK, fine. She has every right to convert to whatever religion she likes and I don't object. But the fruit of this apparent conversion has been, as far as I can tell, nothing but bad. She has withdrawn from her very nice husband, and is on the verge of divorcing him. She has been neglecting her 5 lovely children, and emotionally manipulating them ("You can go to church with Mom and make Mom happy, or with Dad and make him happy." Dad hates this tactic.). Since the two oldest boys decided not to go with her, she has withdrawn from them and acted in ways so that she has lost their respect. She has become short tempered. She has dropped her former friends, except necessary contact. Her blog presents a shiny, happy facade that is mostly about church, a bit about her children, and nothing at all about her husband.

 

So, to my question: the pastor of this church, and his wife, encouraged her for a long time in deceiving her husband. She said nothing to anyone about her changing ideas for quite some time, but emailed the pastor every day and waited anxiously for his daily replies (which, in our church, would be considered totally inappropriate). She ordered books and materials to study which were sent to the pastor's home so that her husband wouldn't know. Something was so obviously wrong that her husband thought she was having an affair, but she refused to discuss anything with him.

 

How can this possibly be right? How can the pastor justify his actions? I don't understand all this at all, but it's certainly caused a lot of pain around here.

 

Well, truthfully, there is no justification for that behavior. It is, of course, quite impossible to make an accurate evaluation of the matter from this vantage point, but I think it is very clear she has deceived herself into thinking she is right when she is not. The Bible is quite clear about lying being wrong. It appears she is using her contrivance of Reformed Christianity to sin. One only has to take her behavior, line it up with scripture, compare the two and see that she is being very selfish and deceiving herself. Very sad indeed, but not a reflection on what the Bible teaches - just a twisted self-centered way of using religion to suit one's own purposes. Not at all uncommon I'm afraid.

Edited August 5, 2009 by Kathleen in VA

[Melissa in CA]

May I ask something about Reformed churches? I have to admit that I am harboring a lot of anger about Calvinism and Reformed theology these days. We have been friends with a family in our church for a long time, and over the past year the wife has decided to join a Reformed church. She says that she has given her life to Jesus (our own Christian church doesn't have Jesus in it).

 

OK, fine. She has every right to convert to whatever religion she likes and I don't object. But the fruit of this apparent conversion has been, as far as I can tell, nothing but bad. She has withdrawn from her very nice husband, and is on the verge of divorcing him. She has been neglecting her 5 lovely children, and emotionally manipulating them ("You can go to church with Mom and make Mom happy, or with Dad and make him happy." Dad hates this tactic.). Since the two oldest boys decided not to go with her, she has withdrawn from them and acted in ways so that she has lost their respect. She has become short tempered. She has dropped her former friends, except necessary contact. Her blog presents a shiny, happy facade that is mostly about church, a bit about her children, and nothing at all about her husband.

 

So, to my question: the pastor of this church, and his wife, encouraged her for a long time in deceiving her husband. She said nothing to anyone about her changing ideas for quite some time, but emailed the pastor every day and waited anxiously for his daily replies (which, in our church, would be considered totally inappropriate). She ordered books and materials to study which were sent to the pastor's home so that her husband wouldn't know. Something was so obviously wrong that her husband thought she was having an affair, but she refused to discuss anything with him.

 

How can this possibly be right? How can the pastor justify his actions? I don't understand all this at all, but it's certainly caused a lot of pain around here.

 

Please do not broad sweep this woman's experience and relate it to Reformed churches in general, or Calvinism on a whole. :confused:

[lionfamily1999]

May I ask something about Reformed churches?

How can this possibly be right? How can the pastor justify his actions? I don't understand all this at all, but it's certainly caused a lot of pain around here.

I don't think it is. I would wonder at the amount of falsehood from one side to the other.

 

The fruits are the proof. The destruction of a family, the casting away of her children, twisting the scripture could make this seem right (family hating family and everything is spoken of as a distinct possibility, if not a probability), but it seems in this case that the destruction is not due to a closer relationship with God. It seems more like she's casting them away to make her relationship appear greater than it might be.

 

How sad.

[KingM]

May I ask something about Reformed churches? I have to admit that I am harboring a lot of anger about Calvinism and Reformed theology these days. We have been friends with a family in our church for a long time, and over the past year the wife has decided to join a Reformed church. She says that she has given her life to Jesus (our own Christian church doesn't have Jesus in it).

 

 

Dangermom, I suspect part of what is happening is that many evangelicals consider your church to be a pseudo-Christian cult. Misguided at best, but probably Satanic. You know, the God Makers, and all of that.

 

This pastor, in his mind, is fully justified in saving this woman's soul, even at the risk of alienating her from her family. There are some Biblical verses to support this position (See Luke 12:51-53). Of course, this is outrageous behavior by the standards of human decency.

 

Now, to be fair, your church is a missionary church as well, and its history is full of stories of people leaving their families to join the Latter-day Saints. Parley P. Pratt, for example, was murdered by the husband of a woman who had joined the Mormons, left her family, and become Pratt's polygamist wife.

[dangermom]

Sure sounds like it COULD BE adultery to me. I guess I don't understand what you're looking for. Of course it's wrong to deceive your husband, and lots of other things are wrong, too.

What I don't understand is why the pastor (and his wife, who is also very involved) is encouraging and abetting these actions. I don't understand how someone who calls himself a minister can justify this. I don't blame him totally or anything; I know that he has also counseled her to love her husband. But to me his actions (helping her to deceive her husband) speak louder than his words to love her husband.

 

I have no reason to think that she is actually committing adultery. But certainly she seems to have some inappropriate feelings towards this pastor, though also she is very close to the wife, who seems to encourage all this.

[KingM]

That's the Orthodox view of the rejection of God and the consequences. Not punishment but consequence.

 

 

What is your personal view of Original Sin? Do you hold to the 6th Decree of the Synod of Jerusalem, in that humans bear the consequences of Adam and Eve's transgression (sickness, death, pain in childbirth, etc.) but do not bear the guilt of this sin?

 

I find this subtle difference between Orthodox and Roman Catholic views of Original Sin very interesting, but it seems that some individual Orthodox and Roman Catholics do not hold strictly to the party line. There seems to be a fair amount of overlap.

[Marylou]

What I don't understand is why the pastor (and his wife, who is also very involved) is encouraging and abetting these actions. I don't understand how someone who calls himself a minister can justify this. I don't blame him totally or anything; I know that he has also counseled her to love her husband. But to me his actions (helping her to deceive her husband) speak louder than his words to love her husband.

 

I have no reason to think that she is actually committing adultery. But certainly she seems to have some inappropriate feelings towards this pastor, though also she is very close to the wife, who seems to encourage all this.

 

And I guess my question is: what does this have to do with the OP's problem with Calvinism?

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The thread is now off topic. Questions have been asked and answered. This is a good time to close the discussion.

 

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