Mogster Posted June 23, 2009 Share Posted June 23, 2009 We swam for a year round team this past season (it was our first year). This summer we are swimming for an outdoor summer team which seems much less competitive and more unorganized compared to the year round team. At the meet last night, my dd had not one but TWO occasions where she touched the wall before the other girl (one of these occasions she touched at least 2 or 3 body-lengths before) and these girls both placed higher than my dd. DD knows she got to the wall first (I saw it too) and she is very discouraged that she placed below them in the final scores. Can the timers be that bad??Normally she is not that competitive, but she is very upset over this. Has anyone ever experienced this before? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EarleneW Posted June 23, 2009 Share Posted June 23, 2009 Our summer swim league is all run by mom volunteers unlike the year round teams, so it's not as organized for sure. Is it possible that there was more then 1 heat in the race and she was just 1st for her heat? If not, no nothing that blatent has ever happened with ours. There have been a few times when calls were made where they were close and the timer just didn't push her button quick enough, but not 2-3 body lengths. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SwimmyKids Posted June 23, 2009 Share Posted June 23, 2009 Yes, it probably is a heat thing. You should make sure to volunteer to time or be clerk of course, not so you can time your own kid, but so that you are a part of the process and understand how much work and coordination it takes to run a meet. Make sure your family understands that summer swimming (especially for a child who swims year-round) is for FUN and that sometimes human error will occur. Sometimes your daughter will benefit from someone' mistake, sometimes she will lose. But always emphasize that it's for fun. The parents who volunteer during these meets work hard to keep things on time and running as smoothly as possible. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TravelingChris Posted June 23, 2009 Share Posted June 23, 2009 My daughter is swimming in a summer league and this is her first time in competitive swimming. Yesterday was her first meet other than her time trial and I was talked into being a timer. It was my first time. As it was, I was almost always the one with the fastest time. (we use three timers in a lane). Why- because I was younger than at least one of the other timers, unknown about second; and because I have very fast reflexes. I am only one of the timers. Each lane is timed separately. We aren't responsible for any part of the judging like whether it was a proper stroke or touvh or anything else. We are concentrating on the end to click the timer at the exact time any part of the body touches the wall. That can be hard with splashing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
plansrme Posted June 23, 2009 Share Posted June 23, 2009 On our summer team, places are determined by the place judges, a parent from each team who sits at the end of the pool and writes down the places. If their places disagree, the official makes the call. The timers' results are used only in the rare event that the place judges can't tell who touched first and the official consults the timers. Place judges have, however, been known to write places wrong. It's actually quite easy to mess up--put a 2 by the lane 3 slot instead of a 3 by the lane 2 slot. I know how frustrating these mistakes can be for the kids, though, and I would mention it to the coordinators. The error could have been with the scorer's table also. And is there a chance your daughter DQ'd for not touching the wall with 2 hands (required for fly and breaststroke) or for something in her stroke? If so, the coordinator or the coach should be able to tell you that. Terri Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mogster Posted June 23, 2009 Author Share Posted June 23, 2009 She wasn't DQ'd -- my dd was given 5th place and the girl she beat by a very noticeable amount (in her same heat) was given 4th. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
plansrme Posted June 23, 2009 Share Posted June 23, 2009 Sorry--didn't mean to imply she didn't get to the wall first. I understand that. Some teams, though, will just put you in last place if you DQ, rather than noting it as a DQ. I'm just throwing it out as a possible explanation for such a blatant placement error. What does the coordinator say about it? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SwimmyKids Posted June 23, 2009 Share Posted June 23, 2009 I just thought of something no one has mentioned: Have your daughter (not you) talk to her summer coach about it before the next meet if it's still bugging her. Let her and the coach handle it. You stay out of it. You are there to congratulate her on beautiful swims, great sportsmanship. Don't make this a big deal; again, it's summer league. Your daughter has an opportunity here to learn how to take sometimes unfair calls with grace. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
swimmermom3 Posted June 23, 2009 Share Posted June 23, 2009 I just thought of something no one has mentioned: Have your daughter (not you) talk to her summer coach about it before the next meet if it's still bugging her. Let her and the coach handle it. You stay out of it. You are there to congratulate her on beautiful swims, great sportsmanship. Don't make this a big deal; again, it's summer league. Your daughter has an opportunity here to learn how to take sometimes unfair calls with grace. :iagree:Summer league and a year-round competitive teams are two different animals. You are fortunate that your league allows competitive swimmers on it. In our area, if you swim with a team you are not allowed to swim in summer league-rightly so, IMO. "Can timers be that bad?" Oh yeah:D Age of timers seldom has anything do with accuracy, fast reflexes- maybe, lots of practice-definitely. I would be curious to know what the timing system was. If they were using two watches, they would have taken the average of the two. If they used 3 watches, they would have taken the middle time. With inexperienced timers, you could have a wide variance on those times and it could have changed the order of the finish you observed. Also know that it can be difficult for an official or parent serving as a place judge to view accurately an order of finish unless the swimmers are coming to the wall one at a time. Relax. Have fun. Usually, in summer league everyone is trying to do their best, parents included. Let the coach handle it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kaylk in tx Posted June 23, 2009 Share Posted June 23, 2009 in our summer league, times are used to determine places. HOWEVER, if you notice a discrepency like that when they post results, immediately go to the team rep and ask them to speak to the head referee. the head referee writes down order of finish. it's a backup if there is any dispute. of course i don't know the exact rules of your league, but that's how ours works. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jan in SC Posted June 23, 2009 Share Posted June 23, 2009 Could the timers have had the worng names on the sheets. They could have thought they were timing girl X, when really, girl Y was in their lane and they didn't check! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mcconnellboys Posted June 23, 2009 Share Posted June 23, 2009 Yes, I'm wondering if you're referring to a heat issue, as some others mentioned? She touched the wall ahead of others swimming with her, in the same heat? Or she thinks she was faster than others who swam in other heats? It sounded to me as if you meant she touched before others in her own heat. In that event, I'm not sure how the timers could have made such a large mistake. I might ask those running the show or the coaches to look at times. Perhaps those making up the ribbons made the mistake, rather than the timers - or even those doing the scoring. If it happened multiple times, that could be a problem.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
In The Great White North Posted June 23, 2009 Share Posted June 23, 2009 HOWEVER, if you notice a discrepency like that when they post results, immediately go to the team rep and ask them to speak to the head referee. the head referee writes down order of finish. it's a backup if there is any dispute. of course i don't know the exact rules of your league, but that's how ours works. :iagree: Ask the coach as soon as you see the results. Mistakes do happen and are usually correctable on the spot. Days later, it may not be correctable at all. We were at a meet last weekend where one of our swimmers in one event was not listed on the results at all. She didn't hit the touchpad and the timers both missed it. When I asked the guy running the computer about it, the computer had her as a "No Show." The only record of her swimming at all was the what the official wrote down for the order of finish for her heat. Most people I know involved in running meets go above and beyond the call of duty to ensure accuracy, especially the referee and the computer operator. Timers are often inexperienced and drafted at the last minute under duress, so that's where errors frequently occur. As coaches, we can't catch everything. The coaches are usually on deck, talking to the swimmers about their technique, watching the swims, making sure they get to the blocks on time, etc. They do not get to look at the results until after the whole meet is done, and probably won't remember each race, let alone each swimmer in each race (that's why they talk to the swimmers right away). The parents are usually the ones who catch the obvious mistakes in the results and I, as a coach, appreciate it when parents point these out before the meet is over, so I can do something about it. I don't think a swimmer, of any age, should have to learn how to gracefully be cheated out of the place she earned. Places and times in swimming do not have the subjectivity of ref's call in baseball or soccer. It is black and white, not an opinion. If she had been DQ'd, there would be an opportunity to learn how to take unfair calls with grace. This sounds like a clerical error that should be brought to the coach's attention. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TravelingChris Posted June 23, 2009 Share Posted June 23, 2009 Now I wonder how it is done at other swim leagues. We have two levels of meets. A meets have winners and the procedure is somewhat different. B meets are about improving time and not races against anyone else. I was a timer at a B meet. Now tonight I am going to an A meet in diving but of course, then there will be no time issues but simply judging issues. I am supposed to go tomorrow night to learn how to be a diving judge. In both sports you have to qualify to be in an A meet but all swimmers or divers get to participate in a B meet. At least in swimming, you cannot participate in the same event at both A and B meets. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NCMom Posted June 23, 2009 Share Posted June 23, 2009 Now I wonder how it is done at other swim leagues. We have two levels of meets. A meets have winners and the procedure is somewhat different. B meets are about improving time and not races against anyone else. I was a timer at a B meet. Now tonight I am going to an A meet in diving but of course, then there will be no time issues but simply judging issues. I am supposed to go tomorrow night to learn how to be a diving judge. In both sports you have to qualify to be in an A meet but all swimmers or divers get to participate in a B meet. At least in swimming, you cannot participate in the same event at both A and B meets. Interesting - must be a team thing. Mine have been on teams in two different states and swum in 3 others, and I never heard of such a thing. :001_smile: Are your A meets US swim sanctioned meets? And B meets are time trials maybe? We attend large area/regional US swim meets, most where anyone can go and a few where you must have a certain time cut to go. There is also the JO meet, which is the state championship meet and it requires certain times. The younger kids will have intra-squad meets to practice meet skills but we rarely have time trials. We never have or attend unsanctioned meets. Our summer and winter leagues also have smaller meets and league championship meets (US swim sanctioned too) which anyone in the league can attend. These totally rock. Up north we had bi/tri meets most every weekend and only 2 US sanctioned meets, 1 of which was the state champs (no time cuts needed) As for the OP, I would ask ASAP. If she is totally sure that she out-touched people in the same exact heat as herself but placed under them on the results sheet, then it might just be an error. It is better to ask immediately, though. Hand-timing is a huge pain and there is a big margin for error all through the process. Georgia Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mogster Posted June 23, 2009 Author Share Posted June 23, 2009 I did not mention it to the coach at the meet because I didn't want to take away from her time with the swimmers and I didn't want to make a big deal out of it (the girl that placed above my dd in her heat was from our team). I have tried to blow it off as no big deal with my dd -- I told her she knows where she placed even though the ribbon might not reflect it. We are really just trying to have fun and improve our times so we can grow in the sport. I just wish our times and places reflected the swimming. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kaylk in tx Posted June 23, 2009 Share Posted June 23, 2009 find out if your team has a representative. that's who handles all such issues at our meets. and it really has to be done right away. once the officials sign off on the meet, it can't be changed unless your team is willing to file an official protest which is unlikely since it doesn't sound like they lost any points. i must admit, our refs would probably have caught that because they review the order of finish they record against the order of finish that's been inputed into the computer. a strong possibility is what someone else suggested: that the timers had the wrong lane sheets or the girls swam in the wrong lanes, thus their times were backwards. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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