Can someone unscramble my head? I need help understanding "writing" programs.

[Katie.Louise]

I used Classical Writing Aesop some, with my dd (in 4th at the time, she'll be in 6th this year.) She enjoyed doing it too. We didn't do any of the grammar, because we used R&S. We would go through the piece looking for any words we didn't know (look them up in dictionary) on the first day, then I would have her write the story in her own words the rest of the week. I would ask her to use one or two of the words in her story.

 

My question is do you think this is effective in helping her learn to write well? We also do dictation. Should I just stick with R&S writing assignments, which she is not too interested in? Or try Writing Strands? We tried WS in 3rd grade and for some reason she hated it. She loved to write stories at that time, and used to fill notebooks with stories.

 

She was with me at a hs fair and listened to a presentation on IEW. She liked the methodology of their program. Since it is pretty pricey, I am hesitant to buy it. I know SWB likes Writing Strands.

 

I am very confused, seem to stay that way.:001_smile: Am I talking about two different things here?

Is CW more a study of literature with good structure/content and that is what teaches them to write well? And is WS and IEW teach the child how to do it on their own from the begining? Does CW get into that in later books?

 

Also, is there a link to explain the different types of writing?

 

Any unscrambling of the mess I have made in my head would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks,

Katie

[Quad Shot Academy]

:lurk5:

[8filltheheart]

I'll attempt. However, you'll find as many different opinions on how to get children to write appropriately as there are people to give them! ;) I'm not a fan of CW, IEW, or WS.....so my bias is going to show strongly. I think imitative writing is an excellent 3rd grade skill (or 4th grade for delayed readers that are working slightly behind in order to catch up.)

 

But, all that aside......

 

Writing programs like IEW and the lower levels of CW are "imitative" writing programs, though Aesops has more in common with IEW than Homer.

 

IEW's philosopy is "key-word outlining." They take a sample piece, select ~3 key words per sentence, create a key word outline, and then re-write in their own words. Students are then taught "dress-ups." These are strong verbs, adj, advs, which clauses, banned words that need to be replaced, etc.

 

Homer has the student do a much more thorough analysis of the writing and works more on learning more than one way to express the same thought than the simpler re-writes of IEW/Aesops. Homer focuses on writing narrative (basic story telling).

 

CW does not move to essay style writing until the next level which is Diogenes.

 

Before you can even decide where you want to go for the next yr, you need to be able to evaluate where you child currently stands. Does your child understand the fundamentals of writing? Can she write an independent paragraph without writing via imitation? Can she gather facts, synthesize the information and narrow it to a specific topic, generate a topic sentence, and write supporting details that actually relate directly to the topic independently and without plagiarizing?

 

Again, my completely personal bias here......I think a 6th grader would be far better served learning how to write basic reports from collecting information from more than one source. They have to determine between important facts and side information, organize, outline, rough draft, revise and improve, final copy, etc. It is a much more difficult process to synthesize info from multiple sources than to simply re-write from a single source. Writing non-fiction is a different skill than writing narrative.

 

The most important skill is that they be able to approach writing with ease and confidence and that writing basic essays in late middle school is the goal. They need to be able to know how multiple paragraphs function together to make the whole, work on smooth transitions, being clear and direct and not allowing misplaced information to be included, sentence structure is varied and interesting, write in active voice vs. passive, stay in a single verb tense and perspective, etc. These are the foundations to all future writing.

 

As far as different types? The typical high schooler/college student is going to need to be able to write persausive, cause and effect, comparison/contrast, and lit analysis type essays as well as research papers.

 

I'm not sure any of that helps you at all or not. I'm not even sure how clearly I wrote what I am thinking b/c I have splitting headache and am extremely nauseous. I simply hope I didn't confuse you even more!

Edited June 15, 2009 by 8FillTheHeart

[Shelly in IL]

that teaches the student these processes better? I think we all struggle in our writing program choices, and we'd all love to find the "perfect" program.

[Rhonda in TX]

Writing programs like IEW and the lower levels of CW are "imitative" writing programs, though Aesops has more in common with IEW than Homer.

 

IEW's philosopy is "key-word outlining." They take a sample piece, select ~3 key words per sentence, create a key word outline, and then re-write in their own words. Students are then taught "dress-ups." These are strong verbs, adj, advs, which clauses, banned words that need to be replaced, etc.

 

 

What momof7 is describing here (other than the dress-ups) is just the first two units of IEW. If you move through the units as you are supposed to do, you will leave that behind and start using multiple sources and writing longer papers, even essays.

 

SWB also recommends IEW, but she does not care for the dress-ups. Also, IEW has a 100% money-back refund, so you can try it without worry. They even refund your shipping, and the product does not have to be in perfect condition. We tried the Student Writing Intensive and it did not work for us. I was able to return it and get all our money back, despite missing and used pages in the workbook. I only had to pay about $5 to mail it back to them. I always recommend buying directly from IEW for this reason.

 

IEW is not for everyone, and momof7 has given wonderful writing advice in the past. I just found I needed a lot more hand-holding and IEW gave it to me.

[8filltheheart]

What momof7 is describing here (other than the dress-ups) is just the first two units of IEW. If you move through the units as you are supposed to do, you will leave that behind and start using multiple sources and writing longer papers, even essays.

 

 

I owned through level C and attempted to do C with my oldest (and ended up using C with my younger kids.) Unless it has been greatly modified since I owned it (which is possible since I purchased C at least 7 yrs ago), I did not find it any where the equivalent of appropriate high school writing.

 

I thought A was great for the beginning elementary school writer that had no idea how to put pen to paper, though I thought the writing examples in the mini-booklets were horrid and would have made my kids re-write an assignment if it were turned in written that way. :tongue_smilie:

 

I believe they have added a lot of multiple units, etc to their product line since I purchased from them, but I still don't see IEW's approach as high school level work. High school students should be to the point where they are addressing the rhetorical presentation of their papers, not the structure and how to write. So, "start using multiple sources and writing longer papers, even essays" is appropriate for middle school students in my opinion, not high school.

[kanagnostos]

Katie --

 

Can I ask how your daughter does with her writing assignments? That is, what strengths/weaknesses do you perceive that she has? I am asking because I think that certain programs perhaps suit better depending on what the child struggles with.

 

Another Katie

[8filltheheart]

that teaches the student these processes better? I think we all struggle in our writing program choices, and we'd all love to find the "perfect" program.

 

I haven't found one that I love. :tongue_smilie: When I owned Sonlight umpteen yrs ago, one of the skills they included that I believe is excellent is the mini-report. I have built on that concept with my own kids and it has become the basis of our elementary level writing once they have mastered basic paragraphing skills.

 

Essentially you give the student a very short article (like one from an encyclopedia or online source) and have them take notes, create an outline, and write the report. After they can do that with success, increase the number of sources (I typically give my elementary students 3). Different sources will include different main points. It forces them to have to decide what is important and what is not. That is a huge skill that needs to be mastered b/c staying on topic and not straying and including misfit information is a typical writing mistake.

 

For the 5th grade up crowd, Put That in Writing's style and editing instruction is wonderful. The writing assignments are lame. I simply use the instructional material and assign topics across their curriculum. (I should also point out that PTIW includes detailed information on MLA documentation. I skip that with my students until 7th grade. I don't expect younger kids to document sources.)

 

The Lively Art of Writing is a concise presentation of the typical high school essay. For $5, I think it is excellent instruction for the $$.

 

Books like Horner's Rhetoric in the Classical Tradition and D'Angelo's Composition in the Classical Tradition are appropriate for high school students or for mom's wanting to learn how to teach composition. D'Angelo's book treats the progymnasmata as teaching the art of persuasion in the true classical sense.

 

But a single source that goes through all grade levels, nope, I haven't seen one I like.

[Shelly in IL]

sounds very much like what they had you do in Writing Aids in ToG. For example - for 4 weeks in a row - have them summarize different things from an encyclopedia - with the outline, etc. (this was to remediate) Then they move on to bigger projects.

[Katie.Louise]

kanagnostos;

Katie --

 

Can I ask how your daughter does with her writing assignments? That is, what strengths/weaknesses do you perceive that she has? I am asking because I think that certain programs perhaps suit better depending on what the child struggles with.

 

Another Katie

 

I feel completely at a loss when it comes to evaluating writing. Obviously, I didn't learn to write well in ps. I have read WS's Evaluating Writing a couple of years ago, probably need to reread. I feel like I don't know how to evaluate her writing. Last year, she went to public school. They did no writing at all. They did have an essay that they had to write for the DARE program. I'll post it here to see what you think. She did this on her own with no help from us:

 

The Choices We Make

By Annie Boyd

The word Dare stands for Drug Abuse Resistance Education.

That’s exactly what we learned this year with Sergeant Kelly

Rummel.

At the beginning of D.A.R.E., we learned about the D.A.R.E.

decision-making model. The decision-making model is a way to help

you make the right choice.

A lot of people don’t know that over 400,000 people die each

year from the known 200 poisons in tobacco. Smokers have more

colds and upper respiratory problems. If you play sports and smoke,

you could suffer from shortness of breath and dizziness. The cause

of addiction is nicotine, a powerful substance. Of course there’s

always the choice to just say ‘no’.

Marijuana affects your brain but also causes breathing problems.

Marijuana users have an increased risk of cancer. Marijuana smoke

Contains 50%-70% more of cancer causing chemicals than tobacco

smoke. There is more tar in marijuana smoke than tobacco smoke.

Marijuana is illegal in the United States and can be addictive.

Too much alcohol can lead to coma and death. Alcohol goes

directly into the bloodstream and can increase your risk of a variety

of diseases. Alcohol can damage every organ in your body. Teen

bodies are still growing, therefore alcohol affects the growing body

more than the body of an adult. School performance is also affected by

alcohol.

There are 5 types of peer pressure.

1. Positive Peer Pressure-when someone urges you to do something that

is good for you.

2. Friendly Peer Pressure- when someone who is your friend tries to

get you to do something you may or may not want to do.

3. Indirect/Tempting- when someone tries to persuade you to do some-

thing you do not want to do.

4. Teasing-when someone makes fun of you to make you do something

You do not want to do.

5. Heavy Peer Pressure/Bullying-when someone threatens you physically or

verbally, in an attempt to get you to do something you do not want to do.

Peer Pressure is used to get you to do something you may or may not want

to do.

You have probably seen tobacco and alcohol ads. Wherever you go

you see ads. They make toys, stuffed animals, mugs, t-shirts, and baby bibs

that advertise alcohol and tobacco. Ads are everywhere and may pressure kids into

wanting to use these products.

It all comes down to the choices you make, because you can’t go

back in time and change your choices. I feel it’s important to have the D.A.R.E.

program to teach kids about the hazards of drugs, tobacco, alcohol and marijuana.

I PLEDGE TO BE DRUG, TOBACCO, AND MARIJUANA FREE FOREVER!!!

 

Please let me know your thoughts. I feel completely lost.

Thanks,

Katie

[katilac]

SWB also recommends IEW, but she does not care for the dress-ups.

 

Well, just to clarify, she kinda-sorta-half-heartedly recommends it, :D. She dislikes the style portion, including but not limited to dress-ups, and says (in her talks, on her cd, etc) that she isn't really comfortable with recommending an expensive program and then saying "but don't use half of it."

 

I just wanted to point this out, b/c I know many people take her recs very seriously, and this is more of a 'recommendation with strong reservations' kind of deal.

[Katie.Louise]

Before you can even decide where you want to go for the next yr, you need to be able to evaluate where you child currently stands. Does your child understand the fundamentals of writing? Can she write an independent paragraph without writing via imitation? Can she gather facts, synthesize the information and narrow it to a specific topic, generate a topic sentence, and write supporting details that actually relate directly to the topic independently and without plagiarizing?

 

 

 

I hope I did the quote correctly.

I think she can do these things. I am not sure it is completely organized though. I need a resource that is simple for me to use, that helps her understand the guidelines to writing. I don't know the different types of compositions. I would like to find a program that teaches this.

Thanks so much for your help,

Katie

[Rhonda in TX]

So, "start using multiple sources and writing longer papers, even essays" is appropriate for middle school students in my opinion, not high school.

 

I thought we were talking about middle school. I am not to the high school level, so I have no opinions about that. You may well be right and we will cross that bridge when we come to it.

[Melissa B]

momof7 -

 

A couple of years ago you posted a long year-by-year breakdown of what you do/expect for writing. Unfortunately, I lost that when our computer crashed last year and I needed to purchase a new one.

 

Would you mind doing something similar again?:001_unsure:

 

I found it very helpful and I'm sure others did too!

[katilac]

I think it's pretty good for entering 6th grade; I don't know how much she revised it, but the spelling and such is better than my dd would do on a first draft. This one is really a bit hard to judge, because a fair amount of it is quoting DARE materials (which might be entirely appropriate, depending on the assignment).

 

I heartily recommend buying SWB's writing talks on cd - - she has one that gives an overview, and then one for each level (grammar, middle, high school). My dd is entering 6th also, and I recently bought all 3. They are reasonably priced, and I want to ensure that we are not missing anything from the grammar years, and that we are prepping for high school properly.

 

Great info, and she really details how to teach writing without a program (although she does delve into what's available a bit). Unless one's own skills are particularly weak in this area (and I do mean weak, not just rusty), she has convinced me that a 'program' really doesn't save time or do a better job. I also love her literary analysis one.

 

hmmm, of course I say that, and now I can't find a link for you to order them. writing without fear is at peacehill press, but not the specific ones. I don't see them at rhino technologies, either (that's who recorded/sold them at the conference).

 

maybe someone else knows where to order them??

[angela in ohio]

What momof7 is describing here (other than the dress-ups) is just the first two units of IEW. If you move through the units as you are supposed to do, you will leave that behind and start using multiple sources and writing longer papers, even essays.

 

 

I agree. With a sixth grader, you would cover these two units in a few weeks and then spend the rest of the year progressing through the other seven units of IEW (research reports, essays, critiques, etc.) The TWSS (Teaching Writing Structure and Style - the parent materials that teach you how to teach writing) would take you through at least tenth grade, and you could finish up high school with the High School Writing Intensive.

 

It is difficult to get a true picture of the program if you just use one of the SWI (Student Writing Intensives - A, B, or C,) so I always recommend starting with the TWSS, which contains the whole program.

[Mandy]

Have you looked at Jump-In. Here is a link to their website where you can see a sample chapter, however, you can purchase it cheaper at Rainbow Resources.

 

Jump In

 

Rainbow Resource/Jump In page

 

Amanda