Question about Reformed Presbyterian beliefs

[dangermom]

Yes, again. I know I keep coming back to the Hive about this, but trust me--this is the simplest and most reliable way for me to find answers to these questions. I so appreciate the willingness to share information.

 

So, my question this time is whether Reformed churches believe in Rapture theology? And if so, what sort?

[Laura in VA]

No, I have never heard of any Reformed churches that "believe" in Rapture theology.

[Jugglin'5]

Some reformed Baptists and Bible churches do, but generally not reformed Presbyterians.

[Laura in VA]

Some reformed Baptists and Bible churches do' date=' but generally not reformed Presbyterians.[/quote']

 

Thanks for the clarification. :)

[LND1218]

I agree as a reformed Presbyterian this is not something we believe. Other reformed denominations do.

Edited May 14, 2009 by Steph

[Jugglin'5]

Thanks for the clarification. :)

 

My brother is reformed and Bible church, and they believe in the Rapture, though they don't emphasize like some. I do tease him sometimes about not really being reformed. :D

[dangermom]

Thanks very much everyone. :001_smile:

[Heather in WI]

We're Reformed Baptist and do not believe in 'rapture' theology. I think rapture theology (technically called dispensational premillennialism, I think) is actually a pretty new belief.

[Jugglin'5]

We're Reformed Baptist and do not believe in 'rapture' theology. I think rapture theology (technically called dispensational premillennialism, I think) is actually a pretty new belief.

 

I used to attend a Reformed Baptist church like yours many moons ago. :) That is why I said "some" reformed Baptists. Those Baptists I was talking about usually aren't officially Reformed with a capital R, more like Southern Baptists who happen to be Calvinists.

[Heather in WI]

I used to attend a Reformed Baptist church like yours many moons ago. :) That is why I said "some" reformed Baptists. Those Baptists I was talking about usually aren't officially Reformed with a capital R' date=' more like Southern Baptists who happen to be Calvinists.[/quote']

 

It's all good.

 

I'm laughing because you're right -- that is a perfect description -- small r, Calvinist Baptists. :-D

[Laura R (FL)]

oops. I was trying the quote the message that the Rapture theology was relatively new. Made a mistake somewhere....anyway...

 

I did a thesis on eschatology for a theology class and have found the history of why certain thing *are* to be interesting. From my sources, the rapture theology was first introduced in the mid-late 1800's and was popularized by the publication and rapid spread of the Scofield Reference and Study Bibles at the turn of the century.

 

Just a bit of trivia. :)

 

Reformed Presbyterians hold to older teachings stemming from Luther and Calvin's philosophies. I think you will find most (if not all) of them to be either postmillennial or amillennial.

[Jami]

oops. I was trying the quote the message that the Rapture theology was relatively new. Made a mistake somewhere....anyway...

 

I did a thesis on eschatology for a theology class and have found the history of why certain thing *are* to be interesting. From my sources, the rapture theology was first introduced in the mid-late 1800's and was popularized by the publication and rapid spread of the Scofield Reference and Study Bibles at the turn of the century.

 

Just a bit of trivia. :)

 

Reformed Presbyterians hold to older teachings stemming from Luther and Calvin's philosophies. I think you will find most (if not all) of them to be either postmillennial or amillennial.

 

There's also significant growth of dispensational premil theology after the 1946 creation of a modern Israel. Charles Ryrie would be the theologian to study for more information.

[mommaduck]

Nope. We fall under one of three of the other eschalogical views (there are plenty...more than any one book mentions): Historical Premillinial (NOT to be confused with Dispensational/Rapture theory Premil), Postmillinial, and Amillianial.

[dangermom]

Can someone explain exactly what postmillenial and amillenial mean? :001_smile:

[Heather in WI]

Can someone explain exactly what postmillenial and amillenial mean? :001_smile:

 

I'm quoting from The End Times Made Simple by Samuel E. Waldron:

 

 

 

Amillennialism literally means no millennialism. In one sense this name is accurate, and in another it is not. It is accurate in that the millennium has usually been defined as a great golden age of material blessing on earth before the eternal state in which evil is suppressed and righteousness is triumphant. It is true that in this sense amillennialism holds no millennium. Amillennialists, however, are Bible-believing Christians and view Revelation 20:1-10 as divine truth. Thus, they do believe in the millennium of Revelation 20 and associate this period of time with the gospel or church age between Christi's first and second advents. They teach, consequently, that Christ returns after this millennium is completed. At His return the general judgment and general resurrection occur and the eternal state commences.

 

 

 

Postmillennialism, as the name indicates, teaches that Christ will come back after the millennium (Post is the Latin preposition for after). In contrast to amillennialism it does believe in a great, golden age of spiritual and material blessing on earth before the eternal state. In contrast to premillennialism, it believes that this great golden age is brought to pass through spiritual means before the return of Christ.

 

 

Nope. We fall under one of three of the other eschalogical views (there are plenty...more than any one book mentions): Historical Premillinial (NOT to be confused with Dispensational/Rapture theory Premil), Postmillinial, and Amillianial.

 

In the book I just quoted above, he talks about the four major theories that are currently or have been held by evangelical Christians: Dispensational Premillennialism, Historic or Covenant Premillennialism, Amillennialism, and Postmillenialism.

Edited May 14, 2009 by Heather in WI

[Bess]

To throw a wrench in the mix... one can be reformed in the sense of believing in predestination/election and also believe in dispensationalism/rapture theology. I don't know what a person like the above would be called? Perhaps the little "r" would be appropriate in this case? :)

[Heather in WI]

To throw a wrench in the mix... one can be reformed in the sense of believing in predestination/election and also believe in dispensationalism/rapture theology. I don't know what a person like the above would be called? Perhaps the little "r" would be appropriate in this case? :)

 

Maybe they could be called Calvinist, but certainly not Reformed. Dispensationalism is the opposite of Covenant Theology. Dispensationalists believe that the Church and Israel are distinct and were saved by different methods and that God has different plans for each. Covenant Theology believes that there is only one covenant of Grace and one plan for mankind.

[Bess]

Maybe they could be called Calvinist, but certainly not Reformed. Dispensationalism is the opposite of Covenant Theology. Dispensationalists believe that the Church and Israel are distinct and were saved by different methods and that God has different plans for each. Covenant Theology believes that there is only one covenant of Grace and one plan for mankind.

 

I know the differences between Dispensationalism and covenant theology, but then why would the baptists be called reformed if they still believe in dispensationalism? I thought it was because of their view on election, no? I might be totally wrong... please clarify! Thanks!

[Heather in WI]

I know the differences between Dispensationalism and covenant theology, but then why would the baptists be called reformed if they still believe in dispensationalism? I thought it was because of their view on election, no? I might be totally wrong... please clarify! Thanks!

 

If they are dispensational, I don't think they could be called Reformed. For example, there are many popular nationally known ministers who are Baptist and Calvinist, yet not Reformed. While lay people often label them as Reformed, it is important to note that they themselves don't label themselves Reformed. And, it isn't because they don't know the definition. :001_smile:

 

I think there has been a lot of confusion as late equating Reformed with Calvinism, when in reality Reformed means much more than that. Likewise, there is confusion limiting dispensationalism to eschatology, when in reality it has much broader implications than that, too.

 

For the record, I am a Reformed Baptist. Capital R, non dispensational. {grin}

[mommaduck]

If they are Dispensational, then they are not Reformed. "Reformed" Baptists is already a controversy and subject of humour (are Reformed Baptists truly Reformed if they are Baptists? is the joke and debate...I won't go there though as it involves the baptismal mosh pit, best hashed out on the PB ).

 

Basically Reformed are Calvinists, but not all Calvinists are Reformed.

[dangermom]

Thanks for the explanation. As for the rest, it's way over my head! :svengo:

[Bess]

It's all very confusing. :confused: These labels make me crazy!

[Hapax Legomena]

Dispensationalists believe that the Church and Israel are distinct and were saved by different methods...

 

I can understand why you might make this statement, because it is often mentioned by people who are not as acquainted with dispensationalism. However, dispensationalists would reply that there is only one way of salvation. The basis is always the death of Christ; the requirement is always faith; the content of the faith changes in the various dispensations; the object of faith is always God.

 

Ryrie discusses this point in his book Dispensationalism (revised and expanded version of his earlier work Dispensationalism Today

[Hapax Legomena]

The rapture theology was first introduced in the mid-late 1800's

 

Here are some additional sources presented by Grant R. Jeffrey in his book, When the Trumpet Sounds:

 

"For all the saints and Elect of God are gathered, prior to the tribulation that is to come, and are taken to the Lord lest they see the confusion that is to overwhem the world because of our sins." (On the Last Times, the Antichrist and the End of the World by Ephraim the Syrian or Pseudo-Ephraim - around A.D. 373) (Trumpet p. 108)

 

In his commentary on the New Testament in 1748, Dr. John Gill discussed the rapture in connection with his explanation of I Thess 4:15-17. (Trumpet p. 119)

 

The Shepherd of Hermes (A.D. 110) states that the elect will escape the Great Tribulation (Trumpet p. 125)

[mommaduck]

I can understand why you might make this statement, because it is often mentioned by people who are not as acquainted with dispensationalism. However, dispensationalists would reply that there is only one way of salvation. The basis is always the death of Christ; the requirement is always faith; the content of the faith changes in the various dispensations; the object of faith is always God.

 

Ryrie discusses this point in his book Dispensationalism (revised and expanded version of his earlier work Dispensationalism Today

 

Yes, but Dispensationalists (and I used to be one, strongly) believe that Israel will have an additional opportunity at the end of the Tribulation and beginning of the Millennial Reign.

[Hapax Legomena]

Yes, but Dispensationalists (and I used to be one, strongly) believe that Israel will have an additional opportunity at the end of the Tribulation and beginning of the Millennial Reign.

 

My earlier comment was in response to the point that dispensationalists teach more than one method of salvation. The issue you are raising here is a different one.

 

I am not sure what you mean by Israel having an additional opportunity at the end of the Tribulation. Dispensationalists teach that some Gentiles and Jews will become believers during the Tribulation. In that sense there is not an additional opportunity for Jews and not for Gentiles.

 

In regard to the beginning of the Millennium, dispensationalists teach that everyone entering the Millennial period will be believers. Therefore, at the beginning of the Millennium, no unbelievers will have an opportunity to be saved; there won't be any.

[mommaduck]

My earlier comment was in response to the point that dispensationalists teach more than one method of salvation. The issue you are raising here is a different one.

 

I am not sure what you mean by Israel having an additional opportunity at the end of the Tribulation. Dispensationalists teach that some Gentiles and Jews will become believers during the Tribulation. In that sense there is not an additional opportunity for Jews and not for Gentiles.

 

In regard to the beginning of the Millennium, dispensationalists teach that everyone entering the Millennial period will be believers. Therefore, at the beginning of the Millennium, no unbelievers will have an opportunity to be saved; there won't be any.

 

There are those that teach that the Jews will suddenly believe only when Christ appears at the end of the Trib/beginning of the Mill. It's the same thing, just viewed different ways. It's seen as another way of salvation, in that they did not have to believe by faith, but only if they make it to the end and see with their eyes. Plan B basically.

[johnandtinagilbert]

If they are dispensational, I don't think they could be called Reformed. For example, there are many popular nationally known ministers who are Baptist and Calvinist, yet not Reformed. While lay people often label them as Reformed, it is important to note that they themselves don't label themselves Reformed. And, it isn't because they don't know the definition. :001_smile:

 

I think there has been a lot of confusion as late equating Reformed with Calvinism, when in reality Reformed means much more than that. Likewise, there is confusion limiting dispensationalism to eschatology, when in reality it has much broader implications than that, too.

 

For the record, I am a Reformed Baptist. Capital R, non dispensational. {grin}

 

(asking politely) How can one be a Calvinist, but not Reformed? Did not the Lutheran and Calvinist movements come out of the Reformation, making them "reformed"? I do recognize that all that are reformed are not Calvinist. Just curious. Thanks :)

[mommaduck]

(asking politely) How can one be a Calvinist, but not Reformed? Did not the Lutheran and Calvinist movements come out of the Reformation, making them "reformed"? I do recognize that all that are reformed are not Calvinist. Just curious. Thanks :)

There are some that accept the "5 points of Calvinism", but do not accept other Reformed doctrines (Covenantal Theology).

[johnandtinagilbert]

There are some that accept the "5 points of Calvinism", but do not accept other Reformed doctrines (Covenantal Theology).

 

Thank you for clarifying. I can see the difference now. I have never known, at least to my knowledge, any Calvinists that were not Reformed, so this is interesting discussion.

 

All of this, of course, has me reading online...I wasn't aware that there were a variety of point believers...wow! I think I know why I stay away from these discussions. Too many years of controversy. Thanks again for responding and farewell for tonight :)

Edited May 16, 2009 by johnandtinagilbert
found the answer to my question