I am so sorry you feel that way. This post was the reason I brought up the question at my Bible study tonight. I know you are an atheist, but the way I understand things boils down to this: Jesus is both loving and holy. He expects His followers to likewise be both loving and holy. With issues like these, sometimes we have to work through how to best to accomplish that, according to our understanding of Scripture. I am sorry for causing offense.

I didn't say all Christians do expect to suffer the consequences of their actions. I said they should. If people are cruel, if they are unkind, if they are vicious, if they torment or bully or murder, that is all contrary to New Testament teaching. I don't just believe but know that Christ is an actual living Person, and I can't mold Him or make Him into what I want Him to be. Like everyone else, I was born with tendencies towards particular sins. That doesn't mean I am not responsible, as a Christian, to live by the standards set out in Scripture. That said, those standards are not, generally speaking, something I would just bring up in conversation with people outside of the church, unless they ask what I believe about Biblical requirements for Christians or ask me to participate in something I consider to be immoral. I mentioned 1 Corinthians 5 earlier: "For what have I to do with judging outsiders? Do you not judge those who are within the church? But those who are outside, God judges." If someone wants to join our local body of believers, then it would be an issue that would need to be addressed. I understand that this is offensive to you, and I am sorry for that.

Thanks, Katie. I appreciate that. I have been wrong enough times that I am always willing to reexamine, while keeping Scripture in mind. So. I posed the cake question to my Bible study group tonight. I think everyone who offered their opinion said they would make the cake and told me why. There were a variety of reasons, most having to do with showing love. My father said that he would let the customer know that although he did not condone their choices, he would make them the best cake he possibly could. My husband said much the same. My original concern was keeping a clear conscience in not giving tacit approval to the marriage. If I gently said something like, "My conscience compels me to tell you that as a Christian, I do not agree with homosexual marriage. However, I would be happy to make you a cake," I would avoid that problem. There would be no tacit approval and no doubt where I personally stood, but I could still serve them and show them love by doing a good job on their cake. I wouldn't argue with them or bring it up again unless they were interested in the conversation. No doubt many people would rather I just be quiet, but this is the best solution I am comfortable with right now. If other conservative Christians think I am wrong in this, I am open to correction from Scripture.

I really appreciate that, Greta. Yes, my comment was thoughtless and unkind, and I had no idea it was something that had been in the news. These are hard conversations for me because I know I am offending people I consider friends. At the same time I feel a responsibility to not misrepresent Christ or His Word. And, yes, I fumble. Often. :o

I don't think I'm the one to ask on this now. I'm considering if I might have been wrong.

I do believe that many people are born with the tendency to be attracted to the same sex. I would never argue that is not true.

Ah, I'm sorry, Sadie. I wanted to respond to Greta's brick analogy, and I tried to think of someone to whom I wouldn't sell bricks, due to conscience's sake. I should have been more thoughtful. I did think about adding a disclaimer (something along the lines of not equating homosexual people with the KKK), but I guess I was in too much of a rush. I sincerely apologize. On a side note, I was at a Bible study tonight and I asked the group for their views on the Cake Question. My husband, whom I respect more than anyone else in this world, disagreed with me, as did others whom I respect. I am about 75% convinced I was wrong. I'll come back to this later. ETA: I have edited the offensive post.

I understand your perspective and appreciate you sharing it. I suppose I would argue that if you knew someone was planning to use your morally neutral brick to celebrate something you believed to be immoral, you probably wouldn't sell it to them. If someone asked me for bricks for such a purpose, I would feel I was giving my tacit approval by selling them the bricks.

Thanks for your response, bibiche. For those who view discrimination against homosexuals as essentially the same thing as discrimination against people of a different race, I can understand the vehemence and frustration. That said, I don't think that type of comment is necessary or kind, and I'll leave it at that. I agree that we live in a secular country. Christians are commanded to follow its laws (Romans 13), except in cases where it would require them to act against their conscience or Scripture (Acts 5:29). They should, of course, expect to suffer the consequences when they do find it necessary to break the law (1 Peter 3). If Christians are unlawfully penalized, they may appeal to the government, as Paul did.

I started but decided it wasn't worth the time (no offense). Yes, I would object to selling cakes for any unscriptural marriage. I suppose I'd need to have a questionnaire of some kind. Is this cake for a wedding between a man and a woman? Have either been married before? How many times? What was the reason for their divorce(s)? All very unpleasant, of course, which is why I wouldn't go into any wedding related business in the first place, as I've said several times in this thread. :)

That was wrong.

I don't think participation, encouragement, or endorsement are quite the right words to use. I would not bake the cake because I would feel I was giving tacit approval to the relationship (not participating in it, encouraging it, or endorsing it). I would feel exactly the same way about making a cake for the wedding of two heterosexuals who divorced their previous spouses for reasons not allowed by Scripture.

Okay, I shared this on another thread, but Ylvis' dubstep parody is not to be missed: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-RBpdOLOSyY

That is creepy as heck. Kind of reminds me of We Like the Moon, from back in the day. Shudder. :)

Cleaning up glass is no fun, and you have my sympathy, but I love any excuse to share music. Here you go, hope four is not too many! Here Comes My Baby, cover by Elizabeth Mitchell (folksy): The 77's, The Lust, the Flesh, the Eyes, and the Pride of Life (late 80's alternative rock): The Choir, Wide-Eyed Wonder (late 80's alternative): Airplanes, cover by Boyce Avenue and DeStorm (acoustic + rap):

Yes, exactly what I was going to suggest. Consistency is key, and I haven't been seeing that.

Yes, Jesus ate with tax collectors and sinners, and Luke 5 tells us why: "And Levi gave a big reception for Him in his house; and there was a great crowd of tax collectors and other people who were reclining at the table with them. The Pharisees and their scribes began grumbling at His disciples, saying, 'Why do you eat and drink with the tax collectors and sinners?' And Jesus answered and said to them, 'It is not those who are well who need a physician, but those who are sick. I have not come to call the righteous but sinners to repentance.'" I agree that as far as I know, there is no New Testament prohibition against doing business with anyone. However, there are still principles of conscience at play. Paul's letter to the Romans: "The faith which you have, have as your own conviction before God. Happy is he who does not condemn himself in what he approves. But he who doubts is condemned if he eats, because his eating is not from faith; and whatever is not from faith is sin." If selling a homosexual person a cake goes against a Christian's conscience, he should not do it -- but for heaven's sake he should be consistent and not sell cakes to adulterers or unequally yoked couples either.

As were you, years ago. The zygote is indisputably human and indisputably alive, with his or her own unique genetic code. She is a being who will continue to live and grow unless her life is ended by some specific circumstance. I am not comfortable potentially ending her life through my choice of birth control, no matter her age or stage of development. YMMV.

Just received another update! Thank you all for your continued prayers for [...]. Today the sedation ended, but the peg feeding tube to her stomach was left in. The trach is still in her throat, even though she has been able to breathe without a ventilator. The trach prevents her from talking, and when her cousin said, "[...], I wish you could talk", [she] wrote on paper, "Me, too!". (She tried to write other words, and draw something, but no one could figure it out.) Because she was weaned off of sedation and pain medication, she is showing encouraging signs of responsiveness and obedience to requests from the nurses. Today she also stood up, and sat in a wheel chair, and everyone thought that she gained a real sense of accomplishment. Sally is staying with her tonight, so we are all excited about what new accomplishments she will do tomorrow! Since she has not yet been able to speak (She mouthed the words, "I love you."), so please pray for her to be able to verbalize things she is thinking or feeling. She still needs a lot of rest, calm, and limited stimuli. The twinkle in her eyes has not yet returned. Please pray for peace and continued healing in her mind, spirit, and body.

Congratulations! I :001_wub: epidurals, in spite of the side effects. Hope you feel better soon!

Generally speaking, I don't involve myself in what people in the world choose to do. "For what have I to do with judging outsiders? Do you not judge those who are within the church? But those who are outside, God judges." I'm not really interested in trying to stop people from getting married. That said, I am still responsible for my own actions. I couldn't in good conscience provide a good or service for the wedding of two homosexual people or for an unbiblical remarriage of two heterosexual people. I agree with others who have said that conservative Christians probably shouldn't be in the wedding cake business.

Every type of IUD has the potential to prevent implantation: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/12501086

Too fun! :laugh:

Update: Thank you all for your continued prayers for [...]. She was successfully taken off the ventilator today, and is breathing on her own (with oxygen). She has been showing lots of encouraging signs, including eye-tracking, responding to simple commands, and responding to other stimulations. She has not yet been able to speak, so this is a prayer request for her to be able to verbalize things she is thinking or feeling. She is in intensive care, and since this was a brain-trauma injury, the doctors and therapists have emphasized her need for a lot of rest, calm, and limited stimuli. She is still being visited by family only, for the duration of her time in ICU. Pray for peace, safety, and continued healing in her mind, spirit, and body as she is transitioning out of sedation over the coming days.

Aww, what a sweet baby girl! Those cheeks! Congrats!