Did you like it? I see two versions on Amazon, a 2010 edition, and one from 1992. I can get the older much cheaper. Are they like workbooks that students write in? Does anyone know if there is a benefit (worth $10 more) to getting the newer edition, or if there is much change between the two editions? Thank you!

I was also thinking that you should only do a chapter at a time. Charlotte Mason philosophy seems to go for shorter periods of time, stretching the book out over more days so the child internalizes the ideas more; SWB calls it "nibbled to death by ducks."😀 Also, unless they enjoy the first book in the series, save the rest for some other time, and try something else, my children are the same ages as yours, and they are used to read-alouds and enjoy them. They loved Narnia, and some of the Little House books, but the Big Woods one wasn't as much a hit as On the Prairie. And The Green Ember, though exciting at the beginning and end, was a real drag in the middle. I got annoyed with Picket's unreasonable and inappropriate stinky attitude. It wasn't developed well, and I wanted him to get over it way more quickly than he did. We started with "picture books" that had lots of text on the page, like an abridged illustrated Winnie the Pooh collection I had. (this was actually hard for them to understand sometimes, I'm just giving you an idea of what I'm talking about.) Then we worked up to non illustrated chapter books in which the chapters were not very long. Perhaps the illustrated collections of Book of Virtues would be good for this. I read when they were already occupied, like while they're in bed at night, or during lunch time. If they don't feel it's pulling them from play time, they will enjoy it more. All kids like stories! Just don't put it in competition with something they already enjoy. I wouldn't give them choices, because they probably won't know what to pick--at least certainly not as well as you will. I'd try different genres, as you have. Perhaps try something humorous like Pippi Longstocking or Ramona, or something a bit more modern like Boxcar Children, or even something older but "scientific," like the Thornton Burgess books.

I have gone through this dilemma several times since beginning WWE three years ago with my oldest. Here is a thread I started to get some advice two years (?) ago, which might help, plus it has links to other questions I asked which are very similar to this topic. I tried to use SOTW as my WWE (following the IG, as you mention, and the narration questions in the SOTW AG), but then my son started really disliking history. So perhaps the thread I posted can shed some light on how you should do things. I know I have often felt frustrated when I tried to write across the curriculum per WTM instructions, but I had a lot of questions and wasn't exactly sure what it should look like, how much to do or expect. Then when I asked questions, it seemed that very few people actually wrote across the curriculum per WTM, but just used the workbooks for WWE. If you search, you may find several other threads about people saying that when they look at the workbooks, they just don't feel adequate to do that, though they wanted to simply use the IG. I know that's how I feel/felt about WWE2. I think it might work better to do WWE with literature, rather than SOTW, unless you just chose a page or two from SOTW and limited the amount of information. Sometimes SOTW includes a story from a certain civilization, and those would probably work well (if they weren't too long); but sometimes, as you said, it doesn't work very well. Do you have the SOTW AG? I do use those questions and narration helps. If it helps you, I wrote down what we read in literature (connected to our current readings in SOTW2), and then made copywork pages for WWE2, and chose dictations. The copywork and dictations matched the requirements in the WWE IG and came from the literature that I selected to go with SOTW2. Your narrations can come from the lit or SOTW2. Much of it is here, but I see that I never finished putting all of the documents on my blog page. Life got pretty busy, and no one ever used it, so... :) But maybe you will! I would love to help someone else with all of that work. I'll try to finish it up pretty soon. At least to get the lesson plans on there to show the reading schedule with the WWE copywork. :) I still fluctuate. Ideally, I'd love to be self-confident enough to basically follow the IG across the curriculum, and not pressure my kids too much, if their dictation isn't at the level of their narration, or if we don't do everything the way the workbooks do. I have tried using the workbooks. I've tried using just the IG. I've tried throwing my hands up in surrender and going to a completely different writing curriculum. But I have personally also learned a lot about how to do these three classical "tools" of writing, by using WWE, and for that I am very thankful! I can tell you, though, having the first 3 levels in workbook, that you don't need the level 1 workbook! In first grade, I count my child's handwriting paper as copywork. I don't discuss grammar at all with it. I try to get him to capitalize and put end punctuation and to copy the spelling correctly, and that's usually very adequate. We cover "grammar" with FLL1/2 that year, and even that is pared down. For level 2, this year I'm using the workbook with my 7yo. It seemed like the most crucial one to me. I still don't do copywork from it, though. We do enough copying and writing in other subjects. I have him look at it, and we discuss it the day we do narration #1. So we do it 3 days per week. It keeps me on track; otherwise I find myself spending waaaay too much time trying to do it just right per my own schedule (like on my blog!), and I still don't think I'm doing it right! Or I find myself not doing any dictation. I still wish I could just get confident enough to do it myself. I do dictation in phonics and spelling, but it's not as complex as WWE2. However, a huge benefit is that in both programs, he knows how to spell all of the words. With both of my sons, WWE dictation has had words that simply derailed their dictations. They took so much time asking me how to spell words that they'd forget what they were supposed to be holding in their heads. For level 3, I don't think the workbook is a must. It's helpful to show you SWB's expectations. But I also just used literature. We had two unexpected trips home (overseas) during my oldest's third grade year. So for 2-3 of the books he read for reading (like The Mouse and the Motorcyle, or an ABeka novel), I had him orally summarize the chapter, and then go write 1-2 sentences every day after reading a chapter. We only did that for two books, and then after that just two days per week for other books, but I saw a vast improvement. Sometimes I wonder if he needed time and maturity more than practice, to be honest! Anyway, I gathered that the big goal in level 3 is to get them to eventually write down their own summaries, without needing to copy what you wrote down for them, without needing to write from their summary dictated to them--just to go from their own head to writing it on paper. So in summary, :), try to get the big picture goals and head towards those, even if it takes more (or fewer) weeks; even if it doesn't get a good mix of summarizing passages with details vs. passages with narrative; even if the child is not equally able in either dictation and narration; use it in a way that you feel comfortable with and that helps your family, and go for the big goals. Careful attentive copywork, holding thoughts in their heads with dictation, and careful listening and the logic of picking out the major points with narration. As far as combining kids, I now have two. I often start with my younger and have him narrate first. Then I ask the older to add to it. I figure the younger needs more practice anyway, and the older, if that day, if he didn't get to add much, he will get plenty of opportunity in other subjects that are just him.

We only track independent reading, not picture books or read alouds, even if done for school. But if they read a book for school, starting in second grade, I had them keep a reading log, as TWTM suggests. They would write the title and author, and if it was a longer chapter book, sometimes a short summary of it. a lot of the books they would read for school for book basket, we don't record. But then my kids saw my husbands personal Word doc with his book list and personal rating system for each year and asked to have one. So now they run to him every time they have a new chapter book to add to that. 😃 so I like how I got myself out of a job there. My husband also wants me to keep track of the books I read, but I don't like to take the time, though I love the idea, I started a goodreads account with good intentions, but never did anything with it. Another option for you might be the Book Crawler app. You can scan books with it, tag them, put them in collections, and add notes to them if you desire. You could have collections for so-and-so 2016 etc. It supposedly can sync or something with good reads, but I've not used it for that yet. :)

Thanks, Farrar, your comments were helpful. So my next question would be...off of my list, do you know which ones cover the same things? CW and CAP are both progym supposedly. What about WWS--would it be redundant with any of the others? Oh, and I do treat grammar separately.

No wonder I'm having trouble choosing a curriculum! lol It's clearly a messy business, all around.

Once a homeschooling lady farther along on the journey than me, with 8 kids, also trying to classically educate, said that she didn't do much with writing in elementary. She even surprised me by saying that when she used IEW SWI-B in 7th grade, she didn't reuse it with her others. Why, I asked. She replied something along the lines of, she didn't think writing courses did much good until the child had better logic to know what to write and how to say it logically. My oldest will start 5th grade in Jan 2017. So would you agree with that? Am I kind of spinning my wheels trying to do writing curriculum in elementary when they'd get it much better around the 7th-8th grade levels (kinda like delayed math, only, it makes much more sense to me with writing)? I'm not talking about quitting copywork, narration, or even dictation, but actual writing instruction like paragraphs, etc. ETA: question to see the list of curricula Kai has tried. :)

Oh. my. word. LOL! Really, I did. lol! This is the best post EVER! I love you. Every paragraph was better than the last. "Decision fatigue." Totally! I think I should print this out and read it daily. You are a great encourager. I think I owe you a frozen yogurt or decadent chocolate or something for this. Thank you, thank you, thank you, thank you, thank you, thank you, thank you, thank you, thank you, tha...

Well, I put a lot of thought into my priorities and wrote them here in a personal philosophy of education. But then I started to question my philosophy. I wrote it when I was only teaching one child, and now I'm teaching 4th, 2nd, and an hour or less with my 5 and 4 yo, and even though it's all still in elementary, it's all taking longer than I'd like! I read people's "how long does your __th-grader take for school" posts, and we usually take longer. And we're still not getting everything in! We do school a lot like how you described. We emphasize the 3 Rs, combine for the social studies (with MFW, though I almost bought TOG! :laugh: ), I combine geography with history, don't do every subject every day, and strew books with MFW's "book basket" idea. But I still wondered if maybe a better way is just to go the traditional route with ABeka or MP or something. It's helpful to hear you say you can't do EVERYTHING! Thank you, those were helpful tips--food for thought. I think I just need to be more confident then in my choices of several curricula. :) haha Don't stop there, more examples please! :) It sure looks like some people get everything done, or at least more than I am! But usually (if I'm honest), when I see their siggies, they are small families. I just wondered how to streamline more without sacrificing rigor, but maybe I'm already doing that as much as possible, and just need to find "rest" in what I'm doing. I'm interested in ELTL, really. But I was concerned about the writing portion, and the spelling, not sure if would be what I was looking for, and the read-aloud every day portion--I actually thought that would take longer than what I'm currently doing (one read-aloud for all the kids together, and twice a week in WWE2 workbook for the second grader's narration--not all the stuff in ELTL, if that makes sense.) Okay, your last paragraph is really helpful to put into words what I wondered about. I would still want to check everything, and I'd be unhappy with their understanding and retention. Besides, I originally chose this path because I wanted my children to love learning and have living books, and to learn together, etc. Sigh. Maybe I just need to be content with our longer days...

Thanks! I just looked it up on Amazon and two other books were suggested: Uncovering the Logic of English by the author of LOE, and The Complete Guide to English Spelling Rules. The ABCs book was 300-something pages, the LOE books was 200-something, and the latter was 142 pages. The reviews of The ABCs book mentioned that it is sorted by letters alphabetically, including all of the sounds the letters make, etc. However, in spelling, often you need to know all the spellings of a different sound. So I wondered if it would be helpful, or if the Complete Guide to Spelling Rules might be more helpful. Has anyone used these? As far as the LOE book, that also looked good, but a reviewer mentioned something like Eide doesn't say when to use the ci, ti, or si spellings, just that they can all say "sh." I'm not sure if that's true or not, and I recognize that there aren't explanations for everything in spelling, and AAS does that sometimes as well, but IF there are clues to how to choose certain spellings, I want a book for that; not so much for phonics, or for the importance of phonics in today's world (of which I'm already convinced.) Has anyone used these? Thanks!

I feel really insecure about teaching writing. This is perhaps evidenced by how many writing curricula I have! :huh: Here's what I have: CAP W&R 1-2 CW Aesop A&B CW Homer A&B CW Poetry for Beginners A WWE 1-3, workbooks and IG WWS1 Writing Strands levels 2-5 (level 3) Igniting Your Writing 1-2 Wordsmith Apprentice and we do the writing sections of R&S grammar Evan Moore booklets How to Write a Story, and How to Write Nonfiction grades 3-6 In the Hands of a Child Paragraph Island Rescue Write From History Early Modern History Level 1 pdf Sentence Composing from Kilgallon (think it's elementary) IEW TWSS DVD course Most Wonderful Writing Lessons Ever (or something like that) The ones in green are purchased and still coming to me; the ones in purple I have used a lot. The ones in orange-red I have dabbled in or used up to 30%, but not enough to really appreciate. I also have several books I bought for self-education; here are some of them: Lively Art of Writing (I have a book, is there a workbook to this too?) Composition in the Classical Tradition Strunk and White Elements of Style On Writing Well Why Johnny Can't Write Bird by Bird IEW TWSS could be included here as well So this is a little ridiculous, is it not? And I'm contemplating getting an IEW themed book as well! Someone stop me, please. I've read lewelma's long thread a few times. I'm trying to think of something to help me figure out what to do! So I wondered: Do any of these curricula overlap? Like CAP narrative 1--does it overlap with CW Homer or WWS1? What would be a good sequence for some of these? Which ones would work well together, in a proper order, to help teach important skills? Which are inferior and I should just forget that I have them? :) Obviously some are on a different maturity level, so maybe I shouldn't beat myself up too much about having so many. How do you use the IEW course? Do you incorporate it into other writing curricula you're using? Or do you have to buy a themed course to use it well? Confused. :huh: ETA: list one more curriculum I forgot about, haha!

I spend a lot of time researching and analyzing when choosing a new curriculum. Part of that is personality, part is that we are overseas and I want to make a good choice, since I know I'll feel stuck with it. But in areas in which I'm insecure, I often end up buying 2 or more programs just in case I need them. Is this wise or just indecisive? My husband mentioned that I'm indecisive once about these kinds of matters, but perhaps I'm just conscientious. I'm going through this right now with spelling and writing, and in the past, with math. I think it's complicated with large families, as well. Part of me says to buy different curricula because I have 5 children, and not all will learn the same way. But another part of me responds that children throughout time have often all learned with the same curriculum in school classrooms, and that it would save me time as a teacher if I just used the same curriculum and didn't go through the learning curve to learn new curricula for different children. For those with large families, how much does the fact of having a large family play into your curriculum decisions? Do you sometimes sacrifice the ideal curriculum and use a simpler one because of time? Have you found it easier to use the same thing for all of your children, or give them box-type curricula so that they are more independent? I'm just trying to work through some principles or ideas for how to choose curriculum in a way that satisfies my desire to give my kids a thorough education but also not take allllllllllll day (teaching from rest idea). And I don't really know how to do that with a large family. If you feel you have succeeded at this, can you help me? Is there anyone who does everything with a large family, and still feels like they weren't ragged after one month? (Here's a list of things that could possibly be included in "everything": math, memory work, foreign language study, grammar, phonics, reading, spelling, writing, vocabulary, history, science, art, Bible, music appreciation and instrumental lessons, nature study, poetry, geography, reading aloud to different ages of children, not to mention Shakespeare, picture study, sports classes, etc.?) :crying:

I wonder if I would feel better about sticking with R&S if I had some sort of handbook for spelling that would help me teach the rules for spelling more coherently. I look at the samples for AAS levels 5-6 and wish I could teach that stuff to my kids without having to buy 6 levels of AAS. (things like the two clues for when to use the -ance ending, clues for /shun/ words, words ending in SS, etc.) Is there a handbook for spelling that includes things like this, very specific spelling helps, beyond just when to use c, k, or ck in a word iykwim?

Well, maybe this will make it worse, but here is a tradition we do that reminds me to do my best in whatever stage I'm in. My last baby is approaching his first birthday, and honestly I'm really sad when I think about it! https://itavitaafrican.wordpress.com/2013/11/07/marble-jars-treasure-your-time/

I also have only used WWE1-3, not 4, but we had similar problems. DS needed so much help with spelling that he would forget what the sentences were. I would also give more help than the workbooks recommend, but I discovered later that SWB recommends repeating as much as needed (but not doing sentence at a time--which is how CAP does it, actually) and giving spelling help as needed. Her lectures on writing are very helpful. She mentions that spelling is often not integrated into other subjects (in the child's mind) until the logic stage, so it is very common for them to make spelling mistakes in their other subjects. You also might be helped by watching, I think it's on youtube, "dictation with Dan" (or is it Ben?) SWB does dictation with her child. All that said, I am seeing my 4th grader get better at his spelling in dictation. Now with my 2nd grader, I do more of a studied dictation approach, which is how WWE2 itself starts out.

Thank you! How much time does R&R take? How many days/hours per week? Does one book go through grades 5-6, or do you use it in one year?

I wonder if Spelling City would do this. I've never used it. I did wonder if I could just get away with basically teaching the lesson one day and testing another, and leaving him to do exercises on his own th spelling city or just with my pre-recordings, in other words, make AAS more independent. I just wasn't sure how well that would work, and it would still take lots of prep time for me. As a side note, I just spoke with my husband, and he suggests sticking with R&S for my sanity's sake. He says it's good enough and not to base my decision to much on what my son wants. 😃 then I spoke with my son, and he just seems concerned at the workbook exercises in R&S and the amount of time they take him, especially when he gets frustrated at not figuring out the correct answers occasionally. I had been trying to get him to pay attention to the spelling rules, so I made him copy the rules (3-4 per week); I asked if he'd feel better if we cut that portion of his spelling jobs, and he was much relieved. Anyway, I'm still thinking about whether or not I should go back to AAS. I'm trying to juggle through the ideas of simplifying and "teaching from rest," but also having several children to train and teach, and wanting to do "rigorous" academics with each one. In the back of this question of AAS vs. R&S is a question of how homeschoolers with large families manage everything. I'm wondering if there are times when you sacrifice "ideal" for the sake of saving time and getting other things done. Sometimes I think of switching curricula in other subjects, but the learning curve for me to teach it takes time and stress as well, so it has to be worth it, kwim?

My son is not a natural speller, which I discovered while using ABeka's 1st grade spelling. We switched to AAS and used levels 1-4. Then this year in 4th grade, I have him using R&S's grade 4 spelling. I needed something independent, since I have many little ones who need my time as well, and I just didn't feel I had time to devote to his spelling as well with something so teacher-intensive as AAS. However, I loved AAS and felt it worked for him. He has requested to go back to it. He doesn't like R&S so much. I don't feel he's retaining the words that he had a problem with. Most of the words he already knew, but if he didn't know them, he often still misses them. I don't like how R&S covers so many rules in one lesson, and wish they would be more focused like AAS. DS often makes mistakes in the workbook, mainly because he doesn't read directions well. So I wonder if I should keep him with it, just to help him learn to follow directions carefully and use logic! I'm really not sure if I should go back to AAS or not. It seemed to help his spelling more, but I really fear I don't have the time, and wonder if I should just stick with R&S, which is more efficient, cheaper, and still thorough (and he's not missing a lot of words on the tests, just one or two about every third week.)

I'm preparing for my oldest boy's entrance into the logic stage and wondering what to use for logic. I read TWTM to brush up on SWB's recommendations, and she recommends using some Critical Thinking Press workbooks for grades 5-6 as sort of pre-logic exercises. Did anyone use those, and how did you like them? Are they worth the money? I've also been looking at Reading and Reasoning, which I saw at CAP's site. Is this just busy work, or would it be like the Critical Thinking materials? Would it be too much work on language if I used Reading and Reasoning at the same time as a writing curriculum, grammar, spelling, lit guides, etc? I was going to go through the Bluedorn's books for logic in 5-6 grades, but do I also need the Critical Thinking workbooks? Thanks for any advice!

I know very little about logic, having never studied it myself. I feel really under confident about trying to teach this subject! 😩 I don't really know what you mean by symbolic vs. linguistic logic. Would any of these companies be adequate by themselves, or would I still need TL1 from MP, say, after doing Intro Logic by Nance to cover the "linguistic" logic? Sorry, I don't even know if I'm expressing my questions logically here! 😃 Could I use CAP by itself? Romans Road by itself? If I started with the BLuedorn books, is there overlap with the CAP products, and I should jump in at a later level? Do these products basically cover the same things just in different ways?

Ooh, thank you. I forgot I bought a cheap used version of either the TM or SM of Intro and have never looked at it. I do remember that mine has Wilsons name on the cover too. I already own Fallacy Detective, Thinking Toolbox, and Intro Logic (though I would have to purchase other things for it), as well as Watts' books. I also have a logic book by, I think it's Geisler? I was wondering if I should just use what I already own, or if any of them covered formal logic (that's why I was thinking of TL1-2.) I thought all of these would take a year or so. But I'm willing to purchase from MP or Romans Road or CAP if those would work better. I've never used anything from any of those companies except for CAP Fable.

Bump

Ooh, very cool, Monica, thanks for the link to Center for Lit. That sounds great, as well as their other Ready Readers guides. Wondering if you and Nicole would mind giving some more details on the Roar and Christians Teachers Guide to Narnoa that you used to give me an idea of what kinds of things are covered in them? Thanks! Another homeschooled mentioned SCM has some Shakespeare plays study guides that look good as well.

This is what we do almost exactly. WWE1 I just do my own way, following the instructor text. This year with my 2nd grader, we are going through WWE2's workbook, and I plan to get through week 27. For 3rd, we do exactly as listed here, finish up level 2, and about half of level 3. We also did writing assignments in our grammar curriculum, R&S and I did some WFH with my older that year. For 4th this year, we're finishing WWE3, did CAP Fable in half a year, and R&S writing assignments. Then I think we'll head into CW's Homer with my oldest, but not sure about WWS slow speed instead or CAP or what. I'm also considering CW Aesop B instead of CAP Fable for my younger. We'll see! I also am very thankful for SWB's work. Bottom line, though: I don't plan to use WWE4. Perhaps if needed, I will use the instructor text for WWE4, but CAP Fable and CW Aesop seem to cover a lot of the things in WWE4, if we need more time with those things.

I was also going to suggest this. Funny, I just posted my own question on literature guides, but I want the opposite of you. :) I don't want a whole unit study built around the book, which is why I didn't want FUFI. Part of me wishes I were brave enough to try something like that and break away from the chronological history model, but I'm not.