I voted other since I use Bob Jones. I don't use the DL. I have heard that takes quite a bit of time to watch. I own the TM, student books, and hands on supplements that come with each elementary grade. Right now I have an upcoming 6th, 4th, 3rd, & toddler. My kids get math, so I am blessed in the teaching part. The lessons in the TM are fabulous, but I find I only need to teach one - three of the lessons for each new chapter for each new concept. It is mastery based. Once they have the concept in a lesson or two they practice it each day until the test. Review is built in. It has been the easiest program for me to use with 4 kids. I loved teaching Singapore, but every day seemed like a new concept without those practice days when I can teach someone else. MUS was cumbersome for us with 3 doing math. BJU has been a great fit and manageable.

My third child is in 2nd grade. I read a few things in the back of her Bob Jones 2nd grade Teacher's Manual this year that I wish I had known about elementary math and math facts when my oldest was in Kindergarten. It would have saved me a few math curriculum switches and time. I want to share it with you. Teaching Math Facts Fact Memorization: ​Memorization of the addition and subtraction facts is difficult for some students (your dd is 6. I am not implying this applies to her at that age, but I think the information is helpful). A negative attitude that often lasts a lifetime begins when students become frustrated because they are unable to remember answers to facts. The ability to remember math facts is a memory skill, not a math skill. Some students memorize Bible verses easily and struggle to memorize math facts. Vital elements of memorization are understanding and concentration. ~Use manipulative to develop students/ understanding before giving them facts to memorize. ~Provide specific study times for a concentrated effort in memorization. ~Concentrate on memorizing only a few new facts while reviewing previously memorized facts. Too many flash cards will not provide the review needed. It is better to study only a few facts at a time. Practice is more beneficial when it is short and frequent. ​~ Vary the activities during the study time to include hearing, seeing, writing, and saying the facts. Involving all the sense will aid the student in the recall of the facts. ​~ Expect students to state the fact with the answer, not just the answer (2 + 9 = 11). ​The purpose of memorizing and practicing math facts is to obtain both accuracy and speed. Encourage the students to achieve accuracy first and then to work toward a quick recall of the facts. Addition / Subtraction Fact Memorization Frequent practice is needed in order for most students to memorize the facts. Students usually do not master the facts in a single year, but they need fact practice throughout the elementary years. It is important that understanding the addition and subtraction operations is emphasized before students begin to memorize the facts. The parts of this information that I wish I had known years ago: ~ Math facts are not memorized in a single year, but take practice throughout the elementary years. ~ Math facts are not a math skill ~ Kids who memorize long Bible passages easily won't necessarily memorize math facts quickly. Whatever program you use you will have to work on math fact memorization. We have used Singapore (I loved teaching, but I wasn't good about adding all the math facts they add in the classroom in Singapore), MUS Alpha for math facts, Rod and Staff for math facts, and Bob Jones Math. My favorite for teaching and for them learning and retaining has been Bob Jones Math. It has enough challenge in word problems, conceptual math, and is a full curriculum that includes review, practice, and math facts. If Horizon is working for you though it is a great program and staying with one math really is the best option through elementary so they build and don't lose time with scope and sequence losses.

Thank you so much for sharing redsquirrel! I was just thinking this morning that I wanted to hear an outcome story of a student who successfully used WWE 1 - 4 and WWS 1 - 3. Thank you!

If you scroll down on the following link it will show you the different progression options posted by Susan Wise Bauer. She has WWE 3 listed for 3rd or 4th and WWS starting 1/2 speed in 5th, or full speed in 6th or 7th or 8th. I think this link will help you realize that you aren't behind. I wouldn't do WWE 4 without doing 3 first: http://downloads.peacehillpress.com/samples/pdf/WWEandWWSexplanation.pdf

My kids will do things that are easy for them without complaint because the time spent goes quickly & is short. I realize it can be different for various children. When my children don't want to do something, like your son, it is usually due to one of the following: - they don't have the necessary skills to do the new skill being presented. Some part of the material is overly challenging, or usually beyond their skill abilities. - the material really is being presented in a way that doesn't teach the skill being asked for. - the material is presented in a way that is overly simplistic and a bit condescending. - the material is non engaging in presentation for where they are at in maturity. Thus, they are either bored or don't get it. After sampling too many math curriculums we have settled into Bob Jones and it works beautifully for all 3 for different reasons. It has enough conceptual & word problems for me, it makes them think, the amount of practice is enough, and it does an excellent job with math facts and review. My kids get math easily, and this has been a better fit and education for us then Singapore since it is a full curriculum on its own. It helps a lot to find a math niche. When I found BJU though it worked well for all of us. I think it helps immensly if it works for both mom & the children.

If she is turned off to sight words here is what NOT to use: - Rod and Staff reading work book - My Father's World Grade 1 Normally I recommend both, but not if they dislike sight words. I agree that reading to her good books right now would be the best thing you can do. She is still very young. As for a good phonics program I would recommend Bob Jones Grade 1. It is a bit pricey, but I think over all was my best experience teaching phonics. It gives a solid base and does set them reading. If she is resistant though I would wait 6 months. The red Pathway Primer that Milestone (primarily carries Rod and Staff) I also found quite useful. The Pathway readers tend to have less busy distractions in them which can be helpful when they are first learning to read. I have had mine read fluently as young as 3/4 and as old as 8 and in between at 6/7. None had learning issues. The one who read fluently later could spell at age 4. The one who read early has had a much longer road learning to spell and write, but at 11 is doing very well in both. Children not in school have the wonderful opportunity to really learn how to read & write well. Reading good books aloud to them helps immensely. I hope it goes well!

I highly suggest listening to the audio lectures on writing by Susan Bauer. You can download each one for $3.99. If you scroll down on the link she has a lecture for elementary, middle grades, and Highschool. I would suggest listening to all 3. I am re-listening to the elementary right now, and listening to the other two for the first time. It is the best writing help I have found for boys. I listened to the elementary one two years ago and it was instrumental in moving my boys forward in writing abilities. My oldest is yours son's age - 11 and coming up on 6th grade. Here is the link: http://peacehillpress.com/audio-lectures/

I used ADV with a very advanced reading 2nd grader. I think he did better with that then he would have with ECC that year. It also allowed me to pull in my K & Pre-K at the time so they could all enjoy it. To cater to his reading level I pulled a lot of books from Heart of Dakota's Bigger program that year and its extensions that were for 4th and 5th graders. He used all of those extra books for book basket, and it added a lot to the American History study while keeping the writing in ADV at grade level. I am glad that I didn't try to do ECC that year. I did ECC last year with a 4th, 2nd, and 1st grader. We ended up using the Poetry YWAM books for my first graders sake. My 4th grader read one or two of the biographies on his own. They all did the student sheets and cooking. The science we ended up swapping for Land Animals for my 2nd and 1st; I wanted last year to finally focus on them. So my 4th took a little bit of a back seat, but still learned much in the program. He also read Kingdom Tales on his own and then discussed it with me. This program spans many ages. Some of it is wonderful for 2nd, while other parts kids do better with a little older. All of my kids have a heart for missions, and ECC was a part of that. I hope you can find peace in your decision.

Dictation is very helpful in teaching writing. It is a way to help the student learn to hold ideas, words, and grammar in their head and then write down what is said. Dictation did help my oldest in spelling by seeing words in context, but an actual spelling program I find helpful in addition to dictation. HOD uses an older spelling program that utilizes dictation to teach spelling in context. It is printed in the appendix. The WTM is a classical approach to writing. HOD is using some of the tools Chralotte Mason used in teaching writing, but in many ways has produced her own writing program and scope and sequence through her dictation, language arts box, narrations in history and science, etc. I agree with Susan Bauer that both spelling & dictation are useful in the elementary grades. I can't link on my phone, but before I used HOD I wish I had read all of the 18 narration topics on Simply Charlotte Mason. She talks about the need of raising the bar as we go, and that would helped me with the HoD TM. Understanding CM more would be helpful too. The best talks I have found on writing are the audio lectures by Susan Bauer on Peace Hill Press. They can be downloaded for $3.99. She did one for elementary, one for the middle grades, and one for high school. She explains many of the reasons behind dictation, spelling, out-lining, etc. So in answer to your question I would do spelling and dictation as part of the learning to write process. I hope that helps.

This is exactly what I was hoping to find in HOD, and in any curriculum we have used. I didn't quote the CM questions, but those too are more of what I had in mind.

Tidbits of Learning, Thank you so much for all of your information! It is really helping me to read all of your experiences and what you are finding in the different curriculums. The expectations you are finding sound a lot like what I was given in 7th - 12th grades for a gifted program 30 years ago. Except, now those expectations are for the regular classes. We analyzed a large variety of literature books and wrote papers on history, our understanding, comparing and contrasting to a wide range of topics, giving our opinions, and thinking through issues. I agree too Tidbits of Learning that there is a big difference between being accepted to college and doing well in it. I remember 1/2 the freshman I started college with not returning sophomore year. I think our 10,000 student campus, including grad students, had 5,000 freshman if I remember correctly. Most weren't there on graduation day. So being prepared is more important then getting in; since if one is well prepared they will get in. Thank you for asking MrsMe. I have read so many threads about the positives on HOD it is nice to read my very great doubts about its educational quality validated. This discussion has been insightful!

No, MFW isn't more rigorous. We have used MFW K, 1, ADV, and ECC. I haven't used the higher guides, but they seemed similar to ECC until a jump in HS. HOD is more focused on CM, but isn't reaching the level of difficulty in the samples of CM students from over a century ago. Carrie spent 11 years in the classroom, and I do see much of that influence in the guides. MFW is very mission minded and much more classically orientated. It has a strong hands on focus though that can also feel busy. The writing is definitely lacking rigorous training and thought. The best part about MFW is their heart for missions. The place I have found focus and rigor for writing is in Susan Bauer's audio down load talks for elementary, middle school, and high school writing. Those talks, available at Peace Hill Press for $4 each, are exceptional and present a rigorous plan for using writing as a means towards thinking and study. Her plan really could be put to use with any history, science, literature, or Bible selections.

I am currently using CTC with my oldest who is 11 and in 5th grade. I am also using Beyond with a 2nd grader. My 3rd grader has been participating some in both. All three of my children have used Rod and Staff English since 2nd grade, so they came into HOD with that background this year. They also came in with a background of having done some written & oral narrations, and much copy work and dictation. The comments below are going to be focused on my experience with CTC. Hmmm...from everything I had read on the HOD board I honestly expected an advanced program. I wouldn't say that is what we have found. In fact, the more I have done of CTC the more surprised I have been by what the program really is versus what I thought it would be. I have also been very surprised that the end of the TM is not any harder then Unit 1. With all of the skill building discussed around HOD, I really did expect and think skills would build within the guide. When I look at RTR it really doesn't look any further then CTC; so I am missing where the real skill building is taking place. I wouldn't say it is grade worthy, except maybe in the amount of work and work load. The program doesn't lack in the number of assignments. It lacks though in rigor, depth of thought, and an application of thought to the study of history or written narration or literature. The questions are very basic for my kids, and I expected them to be pulling more depth out of the study of the Old and New Testaments. I think though instead of giving a review, I will share the main comments my 5th grade son has made regarding the program from his experience of doing it. *The narration box provided in the note book pages has frustrated him due to its small space. The written narration is supposed to be 5 - 8 sentences. He likes to use adjectives and adverbs to give descriptions of the subject he is discussing in his writing. His sentences tend to be compound sentences so they are much longer then a second or third grader might provide. Between these two realities in his writing the box provided is much too SMALL. His written narrations have mostly been 3 - 4 sentences, and he writes very small Italic on lines that he inserts into the box with a ruler. This fills the box, and thus his written narrations have been limited in length by the space provided. The amount of space does not even allow him to complete the assignment given. *The time-line is fairly basic for the OT and NT. This was frustrating to him since he knew many more events in both books of the Bible then is mentioned in the program. *He liked the Greek and Rome books. He rather read the actual Scriptures, then Christine Miller for the OT. Fortunately for the NT the actual Scriptures are used, and he prefers that. *His main comment though has been he thinks the program lacks depth and has many assignments, but none that require thinking. He says that in many ways it has made it more difficult to do because it doesn't make him think. Since it isn't requiring him to think he ends up bored and then he says that it is harder to make himself do the work since it isn't engaging him like other home school work has done. This is a child though who started oral narrations at 6, has voluntarily orally narrated books for years, is an avid reader, and it doesn't take a lot of thought to tell about something he has read. What would take a lot of thought is the next level of thinking that he is needing to start engaging in. I actually bought this program with the thought it would help take his thinking to that next step. I believe Susan Bauer calls it the logic stage. He is ready to start thinking more deeply, comparing and contrasting, and developing reasons for why he believes what he believes. He really needs to be thinking through issues as he enters the middle grades, and this program felt like it was holding him back. As I have looked at RTR - MTMM to see if they would be better for 6th I am not getting the impression they would be. They would add more work, but I am not seeing how they would add more thinking or beginning analysis. I had this impression that HOD devolved into real thinking, and was a program full of rigor. I was very mistaken. I don't consider busy work rigor, but just more work like they had us do in school! :huh: I think HOD has a lot of public school elements and scope and sequence that isn't honors level. I thought it would be more CM, and there are a lot of CM elements. The public school scope and sequence, which is lower expectations then I have, surprised me. I still love a lot of her books picks though! However, definitely not all of them. I don't know if this is what anyone was looking for in an answer, but I thought I would bump you up because I am interested in hearing what others have to say too. :lurk5: I am not planning on continuing on with HOD next year. Faith & Jesus Christ & Bible as the center of our home school has always been the most important part for us, but we really do need academic rigor as well. Hopefully, I can figure out a way to have both. :)

I taught classical piano for years, and age 8 is a great time to start formal lessons. They usually did better if they started in 2nd grade, around their 8th Birthday. I taught them as young as 4, but the slow progress prior to eight usually hindered them later. It set up habits in practicing and technique that were difficult to undo. There are the exceptions to this guidance, with highly gifted 5 year olds. Generally though age 8 is my best recommended age for private piano lessons. Prior to music lessons any music exposure is wonderful for them. When we read children's literature to 5 year olds it helps expand their understanding of the English language. Similarly hearing music and dancing to music helps young children begin to learn the language of music. Playing classical music to them starts teaching them the foundational structure of music in the west that is all based on a 12 tone scale used in a variety of ways. Playing on drums or a stick on the ground or moving to a rhythm starts to teach them beat and counting in their ears. I would make music fun while they are little and then study can progress well when they are a little older, around 8.

I am currently using Preparing, and I probably read aloud to him around 30 minutes a day. I am also using CTC, and he reads the main history spine but the reading aloud for story time and together Bible study / Geography is also around 30 minutes a day. I would say the reading aloud for Beyond that I am doing is around 20 minutes a day. I also do a morning Bible together that is around 15 minutes. The total reading aloud a day for me is around 1 1/2 hours, give or take 20 minutes, with 3 guides. For me the reading aloud is a nice break from teaching that I enjoy. I hope that helps.

I have done MFW K twice & MFW 1 twice & a third time for Bible w/o the phonics. My second born who did MFW K & 1, also did fine with BJU Grade 2 reading following it (I sampled the English and spelling for grade 2 and it was fine as well for the transition, but ended up with R&S instead). My third did MFW1 Bible & BJU phonics/ reading last year. It was very similar in level to MFW1 phonics. I would start with grade 2.

Thank you Ellie for the Rod and Staff English insights. The text book does say in the front that the work sheets aren't needed as part of the program, and I had forgotten that fact. Thank you for the reminder. Thank you also for the insights that they should be doing *all* of the written problems. I do the oral part with them orally, and then have tended towards having them do about half of the written section (or less). This means they are only getting half of the benefits of the program. It is a good reminder. I am sure it would meet with some complaints from all 3 of my oldest to do *all* of the writing in the R&S written section, but they would get used to it. The complaints wouldn't last. All 3 of them are a bit writing resistant and need encouragement in this area. Thank you Penelope for the reminder about written narrations. He has done that other years for history, and he isn't doing any written narrations this year. Your idea of incorporating it into the culture study is a good idea. Blessings,

Thank you for the reassurance ladies!

I used the first half of PLL with my oldest for second grade. He did PLL with MFW ADV. It would be the equivalent of what you are using this year. I guess I was undecided since I had my trial and error oldest also do Rod and Staff second grade that year orally. His writing that year though was PLL and ADV note booking. What was the output from it? I really loved the gentle approach. I have my weeks now where I want to go back to it, and I become tired of the technical side of writing. Then I remember that what we are doing now works, and we continue on and I re-find my motivation for it. I didn't continue PLL into third grade though since I wasn't seeing enough 'outcome from it' for writing. This is where I think though it is entirely dependent on the student and the teacher what outcome will be achieved. My oldest was allergic to pencils until sometime in 3rd grade. So writing took awhile for us to have it click in the home school setting. The gentle approach of PLL didn't produce enough fruit for me. I listened to Susan Baur's download talk for elementary writing education sometime after PLL. I highly recommend it. The outcome of listening to her talk, and her taking pity on boys who are pencil allergic, was WWE I and II and a lot of copy work for both of my oldest sons. It worked! It didn't matter that we ended up doing it 'later' than recommended. The endless daily, not weekly but daily, copy work and dictation did wonders for both of them. I am no longer struggling to teach them to write. It is just happening for us at this point. She really solved my elementary writing problems. The place my oldest learned paragraphs was Rod and Staff grade 4 English last year. I was very pleased with the way it approached teaching the paragraph, and it did teach organized paragraph writing. I tried Writing Strands last year for 4th grade with ECC, but returned it after one lesson. It just wasn't a good fit for either of us. He has done R&S English 2, 3, and 4 and Writing Strands was much more basic than the instruction he has had. So I decided to stay with our R&S path. I loved the gentle approach of PLL. I think it is fine for second grade. What I love more though has been the solid, well thought out, organized writing I am getting after two years of copy work, dictation, years of oral narration, and three years of Rod and Staff. I am very pleased, and I am glad I decided to not continue with PLL after ADV. I think it might have been more enjoyable some days, but I have wanted to teach them a solid English foundation and R&S has allowed me to do that. In summary I think it depends a lot on mom and the student of what will work best. Some students have wonderful outcomes from the more gentle style of PLL and ILL. I don't think we would have had those positive outcomes, with PLL and ILL, given my children's strengths and weaknesses. So that is the difficult part to discern. What is going to work best for you and your children? Blessings,

I am wondering if my 5th grader's writing is enough practice for his age. Writing isn't an area that he does voluntarily. So he isn't getting any outside of school writing practice. He reads and learns and draws voluntarily. All of his writing practice is entirely whatever I assign. We are seven weeks into the school year. Here are his weekly writing assignments (not all of his curriculum, but the areas he has writing in): *Rod and Staff English 5. I have him do evens or odds for the student written section (Is this OK?). I have him do any of the composition assignments. I do use about 1/2 of the worksheets that come with the program. *Apologia General (strong area, so started early): He is doing the notebook journal that Apologia sells with the program. He is doing quite a bit of writing daily in it, which includes lab write-ups. *Dictation: We do this daily with Spelling Wisdom from Simply Charlotte Mason (he does well with dictation for learning spelling, and he never did well with spelling lists). *Rod and Staff Bible 5: There is some writing in it. Mostly it is one-sentence answers to questions. *Cultures: He is doing a cultures / geography theme this year with younger siblings. There is a little bit of writing in it. Not much, and not daily. This is in lieu of history this year. Are we working on his writing enough? This is such an important area, and I keep wondering if I am missing something for his grade. Am I missing anything?

So Happy for you too!!!! We are finally doing our own thing this year & I love it. I am definitely not looking back. Life without a HOD, MFW, or SL schedule is wonderful. Like you we still note book, narrate, read books aloud, dictate, etc. We can focus though on learning together, rather than me reading a schedule & spending time finding the right page or supplies. Very Happy for you!

Thank you each of you. These answers were helpful as I try to think and plan out next year for his writing. Thank you!

I never know if I am doing enough in writing, and I am always convinced that I am not doing enough! It is such an important area for many areas of their future lives. What does your 5th grade writing plan look like for next fall? Please be as specific as possible in every area they will physically do any writing for anything. My boys always want less writing, and I don't want to be influenced by that fact next year. So I really want to know what realistic expectations are, and around how much I perhaps could be expecting of them. I realize children are all individuals, and need to be taught as such. So I want to balance what they really can do with what perhaps I could be expecting and goals to go towards. The writing they have done this year for 4th & 3rd: *Lots of copy work (scripture, literature, poetry, etc.) *One sentence at a time dictations for writing and spelling (we find this really works for their learning of spelling, but that spelling programs don't work for them in regards to learning) *Rod and Staff English *Marie Hazel's flag note booking sheets for ECC *Cursive for my just turned 9 year old *Some writing for geography and science with MFW ECC *Narration ~ we are unfortunately inconsistent on this. Dictation is daily. Copy work has been anywhere from 1 - 5 days a week this year. R&S English is 4 days a week. Cursive is daily. I have been thinking for 5th for my oldest of adding IEW to R&S. He loves to read and has shown some interest in creative writing. I would like to do more writing with him. I always feel like I am missing something in this area. What are you doing, or have done, for 5th for writing? 5th seems to me a turning point in this area, and I want to approach it wisely. I should start written narrations for oldest? History Writing? Thank you! :)

Thank you everyone for all of your answers. The answers are helping me think this through and reflect on the R&S writing lessons that we have done. I like the idea of using them, but I also like the idea of adding some other type of composition teaching for variety and teacher help. It is helpful to know that some of you have found ways to combine R&S with other composition or even used both. Thank you!

My oldest was 7 when my DH bought him his first one. He did explain the Biblical allegory behind the series to him. My ds did read it himself. He read the rest of the series at age 8. He is now 10 and so I asked him if he understood our explanation of the allegory at 7, and he says that he did. He also remembers buying the Voyage of the Dawn Treader as his first Narnia book at a Christian book store. He loves them and has re-read them many times. He has never seen any of the movies. His younger siblings haven't read them or heard them yet.