That is it exactly. Thank you for the concise explanation. I did not like thank you post but could not express it as clearly as you did.

When we first started sewing we incorporated it and other crafts into homeschooling through historical re-enactments. Later one of my girls switched to sewing costumes for comic-con type events and the other chose to sew for fashion.

YES, you can say you would not choose a gay marriage, but it is wrong to deny basic civil rights to others. If you want your beliefs to be the basis for how you live your life, why should you deny other people the right to live by their beliefs.

I think what the others are trying to say is that you don't have to 'support' gay marriage. You just have to not ban it for other people.

I meant the basics too. :) Such as did Christ die for the sins of the entire world or just for the 'elect'? Once save always saved, or can we lose salvation? I believe God exists but my understanding of what that means might be different than other people's understanding. I am in a large multi-denominational study group. The more I talk with them the less I think there is an underlying "basics' of Christianity. I enjoy that group very much and have learned a great deal, but it has also opened my understanding of the many different ways people believe.

Not really, not all Christians believe the same things and of the many many things each Christian believes there are possibilities that each one could be right or wrong. If you mean the basic "God exists", even there I believe He exists and you believe He exists but we may or may not have the same idea of who/what He/She is and what that means. I love God and Christ, I read and study and the more I study the more I love God but the less I am certain I KNOW about Him. I read the Bible and discuss it with people of other denominations and no denominations at all, and we can all read the same words and see different messages revealed. I don't believe you can say the Bible means "x". The Bible say different things to different people, at different times in their lives that is the beauty and power of the living word.

Sadly, this is where I depart from some dear Calvinist friends. I believe that Christ died for the entire world. My friends believe that He died for the 'elect' - those predestined for salvation I also understand that some people believe His death covers the entire world Christian or not

Short answer - 'yes' Most people experience the world through the filter of their personal backgrounds, beliefs and experiences. Even something clear cut as a noun can have various meanings - think of the different responses to 'what is a home?" 'What is a family?" When you are then discussing a concept such as faith, truth, peace, justice it becomes even more complex. There are two primary dangers when entering this kind of discussion: 1 - assuming everyone's reality is the same as yours 2 - assuming everyone's reality is different than yours :)

I loved your story. Thanks for sharing. This is the type of 'salvation' that was unfortunately prevalent in the '70s early '80s. My father, who was very active in his church, really dislike these types of revivals. I think it was this type of thing that lead to a back lash against evangelism in many congregations. It may also have lead me to view the topic through a distorted lens. This entire thread has been enlightening. :)

definitely

My particular denomination skews slightly Charismatic. The gifts of the spirit listed in 1 Corinthians 12 includes evangelism but also includes serving, teaching, giving and mercy. To my understanding evangelism is only part of the Christian community. There is a hollowness to 'winning souls' at the expense of the other gifts. The huge revivals and spiritual campaigns that were popular in the 70s and early 80s left a bitter taste for some churches. The idea that we can preach someone to the 'altar call' and then once they are 'saved' our job is done is a limited sort of faith. We are called to serve, to seek justice and peace, to care for the foreigner, the widow and the orphan. By loving God and loving our neighbor we are part of the community. We work with schools (non-evangelizing), prisons and homeless shelters and area seniors. We feed, clothe and help people with utilities. We don't seek salvation through works but by our works they will know us. Yes, I might invite someone to my church or to a bible study (we have a large emphasis on education) but only as a means of letting them know we are there. No one can be converted by being dragged in, we reach out by showing faith, reason and love. Being witness is about the life you live. Honestly, in today's world most people know 'about' Christ but they need to 'see Christ in action'. I hope this helps, some of these are thoughts I have not tried to type out before. :) Let me know if there is more I can clarify.

I think we can assume vastly different experiences are in play here. :) If the conversations you describe are relaxed and friendly in your experience that is great. My experiences are different. I object to the type of evangelizing I have seen, I can't speak to what it is like for you.

I'm not the person who posted that but I would like to provide an answer. It can cause a hostile environment (obviously not always but often enough). People who do not wish to respond to the outreach become uncomfortable, particularly if the behavior repeats. It can end up bad for the team (or whatever activity) or bad for the business. It forces a feeling of 'outsider' on the ones who wish only to be left alone. This environment is doubly hard on children because not all young Christian children have the sensitivity or tact to handle the situation. The example I mentioned earlier in the thread of a church praying on school grounds, quickly turned into a 'us' 'them' antagonism between kids at the school. I would not want to be handed religious material. I would politely decline the first time, but if it continuing I would seek intervention from the group leader, business owner, whatever. I would find the whole matter disrespectful. As I have stated I am a Christian but do not come from a highly evangelical denomination. The command to constantly convert is not as universal as some denominations see it.

Good point. I was looking at it the other way around. If I behave without love, hope, faith, patience, peace and kindness (things which are the fruits of the Spirit) then simply saying I am a Christian is not good enough. These traits are of course not exclusive. They may not look at me and say "Christian!" but they should not look at me and say "Christian? huh?? would not have guessed" Does that clarify?

I agree with the above as far as the 'intent' of the passages. Unfortunately, in my experience (locally) many Christians seem to take this further to mean 'I can be as offensive as I want and it is okay with God". When someone asks to be treated politely or left alone these same (poorly taught) Christians simply begin bludgeoning them with scripture. That isn't the fault of the religion but it is the reality of the prospective convert/victim. :) Arctic Mama - as we discussed earlier your words are in no way responsible for my reaction, my reaction comes from my experiences. My own Christian doctrine does not include total depravity nor do we assume that Christianity is inherently offensive to the world. Although there are many who reject the message of Christ, we cannot drag them to faith we can only offer love and truth. I totally agree that if people can only tell I am a Christian because I say I am then I am doing it wrong. :)

This does not sound like the sort of community Arctic Mama is describing though. :) I don't foresee a time when I would carry a weapon, but I believe they can be handled responsibly.

I agree that I might not be comfortable either; but, if it is the expectation/norm of the community then it sounds perfectly reasonable to me. :) One thing I keep seeing here is that all communities have their own way of doing things. There is certainly nothing inherently wrong with a community/church choosing how to protect themselves.

Sorry Maize, but I gotta go with yes it is persecution. Voting against a school bond or pot does not deny an entire group of people a basic civil right that is already enjoyed by everyone else. I do not want to seem as if I am abusing or name calling, I would never say you can't believe what you believe. I just want the law to be impartial.

I love it when that happens. :hurray:

No not really. :) It is one of the things that annoys me locally. There is a large group here who believe they are the only "true Christians", my denomination is willing to say 'We are Christians and others are also Christians". I also believe God is able to reach anyone he wants to of any belief. I yes I have been told I am wrong. :)

My first thought was 'yikes' but then I realized that if that is the general agreement (on protecting the congregation) more power to you. :) Thank you for sharing. Sometimes angry people attack (verbally or physically), and any large number of people together can be at risk. This applies to Churches, schools, government offices, shopping malls, etc. Good leaders take responsibility to be prepared. I work administration with a weekly bible study group that numbers nearly 200. We (the administration) plan and drill for many types of emergencies...medical, fire, severe weather (Florida!) and intruder, it just makes sense and is the responsible thing to do.

I really appreciate all of the different view points I am seeing here. I am neither Catholic nor Jehovah's Witness so I wasn't aware of some of those issues. The big thing that has been apparent is that we really can't describe America as a whole. So much depends on location. My local reality is not the same as everyone elses. I knew there was a huge shift from New Mexico (where I was before) and North Florida (deep south) where I am now. In some ways helps makes sense of some people I talk to on news sites. I often feel like asking (I don't because I am fairly polite) if they exist in the same world I do. Hmmm, maybe they don't. ha

me too :)

I believe your good will. And you are right that I view your words and the quoted scriptures through a prism that has nothing to do with what you have said. :) Unfortunately, my experiences are not uncommon and (in my opinion ) xperiences like that actually harm the cause of Christ. Thank you for sharing your point of view. :)

I gotta agree with LEAV97. :) I don't know about LEAV97 but I have heard all these scriptures before. I do not doubt your sincerity and I have no idea about your kindness since we have never met, but the scripture has been used as a weapon to many times for me. It is starting to give me flashbacks. (sort of kidding but not really) I am a Christian but I do not see how bludgeoning people with the Bible (not you in specific since we have never spoken, but many people who have used those same scriptures) helps them or furthers the cause of Christ.