http://nymag.com/news/features/27840/?fb_action_ids=10201052241213744&fb_action_types=og.recommends&fb_source=aggregation&fb_aggregation_id=288381481237582 I just read this article a couple of days ago about gifted children who do poorly or who don't want to try. Not sayin' this is you necessarily! Just something to consider.

http://vereloqui.blo...elites-are.html Above is a link to an article that stresses an interesting reason for teaching grammar. Lots of Christian content, so beware if you are opposed to reading any. Whaddya say? I, for one, am so glad that me and my kids have studied grammar so intensively!

http://www.welltrainedmind.com/forums/showthread.php?t=187423 a link to a previous post about CW Poetry

Angela, It looks like the Monroe County line is not that far from the neighborhood that we are now looking into. Thanks for the info. I wonder if the Washtenaw HSC will accept late-comers? Do your kids go there? Hey, I notice that your WTM name makes it look like you are from OH and yet you live in MI. : ) You must have moved from OH? or you are originally from OH? I think I might change my WTM name when we move from KY. Is that possible? Your blog is interesting! It looks as though you like and might have used classical approaches for your HS. Do you teach Latin? Have you ever thought about tutoring Latin? No, I don't need a tutor....: )

Thanks, Carrie! I think the Ypsi neighborhood that we are settling on is a few miles south of I-94. It is a huge neighborhood that is, in turn, surrounded by farmland. It seems pretty insulated. My hubby knows two people that work with him that live there. I looked at some pics at your blog. What sweet-looking children!

...food intolerances and allergies? One of my symptoms is that my thoughts go reeling at night while I am trying to sleep. You might try an elimination diet or the Feingold diet. YMMV

Here is a link to a textbook that you could buy at Amazon, Composition in the Classical Tradition. Unfortunately it has no _classical_ models, only more contemporary ones. Still, you get the idea what each level essay should look like. http://www.amazon.com/Composition-Classical-Tradition-Frank-DAngelo/dp/0023271418/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1336875161&sr=1-1 Also Classical Writing has classical models embedded in each of its books.

...deep enough, I think, to give some students a chance at studying philosophy in college if you also use the logic courses they recommend. That statement might make some people think it must be TOO hard, and yet, it really is not that hard at all if you take it step-by-step, day-by-day, lesson-by-lesson. I wonder if some people who have given up on CW try to understand the whole chunk at once and get overwhelmed. In CW, the skill of writing is not merely left up to student's intuition. It is explicitly taught. I think this is a good thing, even if a student normally writes quite intuitively. In general it is much better to know explicitly the things that you are learning. This we know when we teach math. We don't ask students to solve math problems intuitively. We teach them explicitly the hows and (hopefully) the whys of math, aiming for students to gain skill in thinking and communicating quantitatively. It doesn't matter if they can solve problems intuitively. The same should be true of teaching writing. Writing is the skill of thinking and communicating verbally; it is better to know the whys and hows of it. CW teaches this by looking how the Ancient and classic orators and pedagogues taught writing, analyzing how they wrote and then imitating them. At each level, students learn the progym, which includes topics of invention, also known as paragraph types, as well as patterns of arrangement. Once this theory is studied, students move on to analyzing great writing that uses the patterns. Then students write their own essay using the patterns. What makes CW stand out from other progym writing programs are the marvelous _classical_ models, the in -depth explanation of concepts and the scope of the concepts covered. What I mean by "scope" is that they cover many formal rhetorical concepts and things like Aristotle's Four Causes. Everyone, including intuitive writers, benefits from the clarity that results from thinking explicitly about those things. My younger set just finished CW Demothsenes. So I know that CW is doable and can turn out good writers. They are good writers. They NEVER have writer's block. EVER. They know how to access at least some what there is to say about a topic. They are not afraid of writing. They approach assignments with confidence. So....some of my thoughts about our experience with CW. Hope it encourages you to give it a try!

Thank you! We have been considering CC! As far as where we may live, we have been looking at new houses in Ypsi, actually I think it's the Township...still looking. We are also looking in Bellville. Anyone else?

Jackson County is not THAT far from where we will live.Do you like living and schooling in MI? I have other questions if you (or other board-reader) have time to answer. (Pretty please?) We are moving to Michigan this summer and will live somewhere near Ann Arbor since my husband's new job is located there. Any news on classical homeschooling groups? or places to get good academic classes for my highschoolers? Any colleges offer early starts or dual credit programs for highschoolers? Any news about good places to live that are not too expensive? (AA obviously is too expensive.)

It's not your concern

Yay!! I am sure we agree and rejoice together over that! Well.....then again, it may not be the ONLY lesson! <g>

I wonder if the OP's question has gotten buried. I urge you, OP, to read the Bible for yourself with that question in mind. Perhaps you could start with one of the Gospels, say the Gospel of John. Then you might read Paul's letter to the Romans which is a theological writing about salvation. I think it addresses your question. Of course, I urge making the first reading of these with the attitude of just seeing what they say. Make sure that you understand what they are saying first. The next step is to seek answers to questions about the specific parts that you didn't understand. This is the step where you ask people who claim to really know how to answer, perhaps a pastor or a believing theology professor, or a Christian apologist.

Hi Eliana, I hope to be respectful as I comment (as a Christian) on your sincere response. While it is true that Torah Law, the Law of God given through Moses, does not demand a human sacrifice, it is true that God did demand one in your scriptures. In Genesis God did ask Abraham to sacrifice Isaac. Of course in the end, God provided a Ram for an offering instead, and Isaac was not sacrificed. Nevertheless, God did demand and Abraham did comply, believing that they would both return alive down the mountain, somehow. Abraham's implicit belief in the goodness and power of God is the basis for his faith and our our faith also. Abraham believed God could even raise the dead in order to keep His promise. (strongly implied)

A very classical way of looking at books or other pieces of writing is using analysis and imitation on them. There are various ways to analyze a book or piece of wriiting. WTM and WEM uses a question approach using questions appropriate to the genre. They also urge background analysis. THis is research to the historical occasion or cultural time period and author information. Classical Writing uses this background analysis and then focuses on the many aspects of analysis with language topics including Rhetorical occasion, Topics of Invention, Patterns of Arrangement, grammar and style analysis, and some other wonderful topics from classical teachers. Another good way to analyze a book is to look for the Literary structures. These are the typical topics that you would find in a modern literature class, like plot structure, themes, character development. You can use the knowlege that you have learned in your logic classes to do analysis of the arguments. You could use anything you have learned of philosopy or worldview. The Omnibus series inludes questions to analyze what our present culture says about the ideas in the books read. They also have good questions to compare what the Bible says about those ideas. Imitation ideas include outlining, precising, making summaries and writing your own piece of work using various criteria for imitating. You might, say, notice the logical or structural flow of the piece and write your own work with a different topic using that flow....etc. You use all this analysis and imitation to "come to terms" with the author. "Coming to terms" is how Adler puts it in his "How to Read a Book." This book is also a treasure house for analysis ideas. And he also gives some helpful thoughts for making judgements on books. Adler also has written books and arranged the whole Great Books of the Western World around the Great Ideas. You could have a list of these to see what a book or piece of work says about them. You can also use analysis and imitation to "beef up" writing style ala Benjamen Franklin. These are ways of adding to a student's cursory reading that will help deepen and broaden their thinking and learning. I think that might be what you mean by adding rigor. What I haven't found is everything in one particular packaged curriculum. So if you are asking about that, I don't know of any. But I think my suggestions help guide or enhance any study you are doing to make it more of your own curriculum.

Shruley 6 or 7 for fifth or sixth grade. Harvey's Elementary Grammar for seventh and eighth.

Shurley Grammar seems pretty basic to me. A tenth grader could go for something a little more thorough. Shurley 6 or 7 covers the eight parts of speech and the six sentence types with a few usage rules thrown in. It has a lot of repetition of concepts and a lot of repetitious practice. I think it fits most fifth or sixth graders better. Surely a tenth grade student thinking of being an English major would benefit from a program say.....like.... Harvey's Grammar or other intensive and more thorough grammar.

:iagree:

:iagree: We have done the CW Poetry and it has been one of my children's favorite classes.

I haven't seen WT and am just curious: Are all the levels of WT then, just the narrative level? What kind of analysis of the models does WT include? Does WT go at a slower/gentler pace than CW's narrative levels? I wonder if you could explain in greater detail what MP (Cothran) meant. Do they teach the progym, but only as writing projects in a content class and not in a separate writing class? Is that what you intended to say? Just wanting to make sure I understand you right. I don't think CW is the only way to teach writing. Nor do I think it is the only way to teach writing classically. It 's just the best way out of I've seen or used in my family. YMMV

How about authentic original sources that really give a feel for what went on in the Middle Ages, and what the main influences were? Like these: Athanasius' On the Incarnation Boethius' The Consolation of Philosophy Augustines' Confessions Dante's Divine Comedy Geoffery's The History of the British Kings There you've got 5 books with 5 different genres: theology, philosophy, the first autobiography, great literature, and a political history. These are all very readable, well-written, and really interesting.

Here's a thread addressing some options. Please note the OP's requirements. Don"t know if you have the same ones. http://www.welltrainedmind.com/forums/showthread.php?t=260212

Just linking to the similar thread on the High School board: http://www.welltrainedmind.com/forums/showthread.php?t=273511

I believe that Classical Writing is being used in some classrooms. Why don't you ask Lene at the CW message boards about it? I have used CW up to the Herodotus level in our homeschool and can speak a bit about the scheduling, the scope and the support. As far as school scheduling, it is very adaptable. The lessons are set up for 4-day weeks, but can be easily adapted to 5-day weeks. There is a lot to CW. So it may be even advisable to stretch some of the lessons out to two weeks, using 8 days to cover the scheduled 4 days worth of material. Some homeschoolers even decide to skip some of Aesop because there is much repetition. The Homer and Diogenes levels have less repetition. The Herodotus level has very little and I wouldn't advise much skipping of lessons there. In a classroom setting, could you fit it all in? I think for the first levels: yes, if you are flexible. Herodotus: it depends how committed you are. As far as the scope of what they teach and how it is taught, I think it works well. Where appropriate, it integrates most all of the LA to some extent in each level. However, all but the writing instruction itself is meant to be review and application of what is learned in other courses that are focused on them. For example, even though there is extensive practice and some instruction of grammar (as in the eight parts of speech, diagramming, etc..) in CW's Homer level, the authors do not think it thorough enough and recommend that grammar be studied right along side of it. Logic is not covered until the Herodotus level (argumentative writing in the Ref/Con progym) and they recommend TLI to be studied along side it. Although rhetoric instruction is covered in each level, getting more detailed as they progress through the levels, in the Demosthenes level, they use Aristotle's Rhetoric as a text. The suggested readings get more difficult for each level too. I have two dc (14yo and 16yo) right now studying the Herodotus level and they have been progressing nicely in each level not only the readings, but the writing projects and concept reviews too. So even though there is an increase in challenge in each level, the progress of each lesson is incremental enough so that it is not too hard for my regular-ability children. They already have thorough editing lists for students/teachers which they intend for, of course, editing essays but which could be used for a grading rubric. They have student workbooks that keep work together. They have answer manuals. The message board are available too. So I think support materials are good. Maybe someone else could jump in with their thoughts. ETA: The models used for analysis or imitation in CW are the ABSOLUTE BEST of the programs I have used or looked-at, which includes IEW, CC, and this: http://www.amazon.com/Composition-Classical-Tradition-FrankDAngelo/dp/0023271418 You should probably add this last book to your list of progym resources. It is a college text, but I used it satisfactorily for my HS-aged children before CW came out with their later levels. Follow this link to the bottom of the thread for a very short review of it: http://www.welltrainedmind.com/forums/showthread.php?p=456787#post456787

What about something like this for Music History? It is written by a professor of Musicology who has taught homeschoolers too. http://discoveringmusic.net/