There is a packet for $10 or so you can buy that has everything you'll need pre-printed for you. It saved me tons of time!

Why does CC act like it is the only homeschooling group out there that purposes to honor the Lord and serve homeschooling families? I know of many wonderful co-op and homeschool support groups that have as one of their primary missions to serve home schooling families - and none of them charge the fees that CC does for their ministry or the blessing of the community! The home school leaders I know serve, work, pray, and encourage. This CC attitude drives me bonkers. Why should people build the CC kingdom if they have good reasons for not wanting to join a CC community? There are many ways to support other home school families. I am concerned more that the promoting and marketing that is required by the national organization affects the overall home school community. It is by far the most well-marketed group available to home schoolers, because of the national advertising and presence at every convention. I believe people who would otherwise be starting new co-ops to meet the local needs are instead becoming a cog in a business model with a Christian vision statement. I am very concerned that you can't even say that the program didn't work for your family and offer to share why privately without being accused of "bashing" CC. I just really appreciate that this site exists. It is very hard to find a critical analysis of CC anywhere on the internet. There are so many bloggers out there who promote CC. If you only hear from active CC members who parrot the party line, it would be hard for someone to discern why it may not work for everybody. Hopefully, as the CC PR/marketing machine begins ramping up, people will find their way here and at least hear diverging points of view. One of the 4 local CCs in my area (there are even more outside my 30 mile radius but still in the metro area) already has an information meeting for next academic year scheduled for the end of January. So it looks like the season to fill communities is off to an early start.

We started chess this year, and he seems to really enjoy it and does well. We'll start some programming this spring, but I have no idea what to expect! Thanks for your feedback. Good stuff to ponder. I feel like RightStart filled the criteria above: more discovery-based and not easy-breezy. I wonder if we could do CLE and add some of the math puzzles and word problems from MM? I could cut them out without too much trouble. I just didn't want to have to reformat the whole curriculum to make it palatable! :)

A friend of mine uses CLE math. I was checking out their samples for CLE 6 today, and it looked pretty straight forward. Would it be helpful to have him spend a year bridging to a pre-algebra curriculum where we just focus on mastery of the content we've pretty much already learned? I plan on introducing some of the logic puzzles that SWB recommends in the WTM, so he'd still be challenged to think outside the box. CLE seems to have simple instructions written to the student and clean pages that wouldn't overwhelm him. Then we could spend some time introducing something like the Jousting Armadillos and then jump into AoPS? Are there criticisms of CLE out there? I haven't focused on more traditional math programs since we were Saxon 1 failures.

Yes, our issue with Math Mammoth has everything to do with the layout and visual overload and nothing to do with the actual instruction/Asian methodology. We've used SM before as a supplement, but I only used the workbooks, not the textbooks. I used them simply as worksheets for extra practice in between RighStart levels. My downside to using SM is that I would have to learn the Singapore way of teaching. He was able to handle the amount of practice and the page layouts; however, I don't think we've supplemented with any SM since 2B. It has been a little while. I have been assigning IXL standards that correspond to RightStart lessons for extra fraction, decimal, and percent work, but I know he still needs more review. We're on lesson 89, so we're more than halfway through.

Well, I am not looking for completely independent work - just a little more breathing room! I know that Right Start G is supposed to begin the transition to more independent work - or at least that is what the RS rep told me last year at convention! Thanks for your suggestions. I have never heard of either of those options. I was pretty sure the jump was too big, but I know there are people on here with 5th graders in AOP. That said, I am not trying to win a race to get to Algebra as early as possible! Thank you for the feedback!

I have read a ton of threads on here about AOPS; however I am still unsure where we should go after RightStart E. Here is a bit of our background: I have supplemented a little bit along the way, but this year I have only added IXL work to RightStart E. RightStart has been the perfect fit for my son, and this year, he hasn't had too much trouble with the material. But this has been his best year. My son has been diagnosed with ADHD, poor working memory, and slow written motor speed. All of these issues have made RightStart the perfect math curriculum for him due to the emphasis on mental math and the short lessons. Through diet changes over the past three months, we have had a lot of improvement with focus and have almost zero melt-downs over math (which is not something I can say about previous years). He has always tested somewhere between 55 - 80% on the IOWA test for math, but I am not sure how much of his difficulty focusing and motor speed has been affected his scores. Our neuroed psych testing revealed he scored in the 97 percentile for math IQ. I have always felt he had a high aptitude for math, despite his meltdowns which left him unable to add 2+2 at times! So, to make a long story long, I feel like he is capable of a rigorous/advanced math curriculum, but he has some special challenges. He has gotten used to very short lessons. And sometimes short lessons take him a long time! Last year I purchased the Math Mammoth downloads thinking they would be great for mastery work. He started crying just from looking at the page alone! So when I read that people recommend spending some time working through MM 6 before starting AOPS, I am not sure that would work well for us. Plus, I don't like the fact that I have to decide what constitutes a "lesson." I will have 4 other children at home (including a new baby!) when we start schooling next year. This is my hand-holder math child, so I really need to ease him to more independent math work. I don't mind still walking him through the lesson, but I need him to be able to tackle things independently after my part. Right now he requires me to be within arm's reach for questions for the entire lesson - and that includes his worksheet work. Therefore, he is constantly interrupting my time working with his brother - and this takes away from his brother. I have called the Rightstart hotline, but aside from recommending VT, they aren't much help. They had never heard of AOPS. So here are my questions: Do I spend a year in Singapore 6 A and B, or is that too much of a jump? Do I need to back up to 5A and 5B? Do I work through Right Start (G) Geometry alongside whatever we do? Do I do RightStart Geometry and Life of Fred Decimals, Fractions, and Percents? Would that be enough? Do I just abandon the thought of AOPS and begin VideoText and RS G? I was able to buy VT-Module A for $5 locally last summer, so I already own it. Do I go ahead and jump into AOPS and spend some time reviewing any "trouble" concepts as we identify them? My son will be 10 in May when we finish up Right Start E. Please give me any feedback that you think would be helpful! Thank you very much for your insight!

I will be considering the Omnibus curriculum in a few years, so I was a bit interested in the Veritas Press events happening around the southeast in January. However they weren't initially planning on coming to my city, so I brushed off the event as something I should consider attending in the future. Today I received an e-mail with an updated list of cities, and mine is on there. Does anyone know exactly what this is going to be about? I have RSVP'd, but I would love more information. They close their offices on the weekend, and I thought maybe someone else would have already called and asked this question already. Thanks!

Following - Math Mammoth 6 isn't an option for us. DS has some learning challenges and he freaks out at the sight of a MM page. I have been checking out AOPS, but I am concerned the jump will be overwhelming. DS is 9 and more than halfway through E right now.

My recommendation: Themes to Remember

I think the key to implementing memory work into your home school without CC is to select resources ahead of time and have a plan. I made my own memory CDs for the car. I was able to find songs on Youtube for geography for the past two years. Our selections may not be as exhaustive as the CC guide, but I am very pleased with my son's geography knowledge using a combo of mapping exercises (SOTW AGs and SCM Visits to ... series) and memory songs. This is our first year learning science songs, but I was able to find some Physics raps. We just listen to them in the car when we drive around. There are tons of scripture memory songs/CDs. I also listen to our hymns, etc. in the car. Latin and grammar chants are built into our curriculum, so it doesn't feel like this extra burden. I have introduced the CC timeline song this year, but we are only focusing on 1/4 of it. If CC had more of their material to song and I could download more things individually (so I could purchase just what I needed and order them according to our studies), I would entertain using some of their resources. But they do not work that way. We also memorize a lot of poetry, and I don't think CC places any value on that aspect of memory work. In total, I feel like we have memory sufficiently covered. I would love to have a place on here where everyone on the TWTM boards links resources for the memory work that SWB recommends in TWTM. It seems like the memory work gets more specific as you move into the Logic stage.

That newborn above is now 4 y.o. Our local campus REQUIRES you enroll your 4 year-olds unless you find someone to watch them off-campus. Foundations would cost my family probably $1500 by the time all was said and done - and that wouldn't even cover Essentials. I can buy a lot of great books, a few online classes, several CDs to aid with memory work (to music!), and some quality classical curriculum for that amount and still have the time to join a co-op. :)

Although comments on this thread could be construed as "negative," how else can you help people discern whether it is a good fit for them or not if you aren't allowed to share why it didn't work for you or what you perceive to be as weaknesses in the program. I also think it is extremely important someone fleshes out their perspective of classical, since there are several neo-classical interpretations, BEFORE joining a CC community. When I pull out my CC Foundations guide, I feel like it is overwhelming and disjointed. Why place the burden of Latin endings on the the mother of a Kindergartener when you can do Latin for Children later - you're still in the grammar stage in 3rd/4th grade for goodness sakes! Of course, no one can do all that is in the guide on their own! When I read Susan Wise Bauer's thoughts on memory work, I sigh with relief. It seems attainable; it makes sense. You learn how to memorize when you are young, so you can keep doing it throughout the rest of your education! Your kids don't have to memorize exhaustive exclusive lists at age 4. It may be that many people on these boards are not big CC fans because it would be very difficult to pursue both interpretations simultaneously. When I signed my 4 y.o. for CC many moons ago, I assumed CC was carrying out the type of education put forth in TWTM. Now that we've leapt all the way from Pre-K to 4th grade and have continued pursuing a classical Christian education but left CC behind in the dust, I see that CC and TWTM are very different. Bottom line, for me, the opportunity cost for CC involvement is too great. I would have to give up time and of money to participate in CC. Our personal application of the classical model falls more in line with TWTM with a heavy CM bent. I started a group that meets more of our schooling needs (art, composer study, nature study, poetry, hymn study, geography, Shakespeare, etc.) - all the subjects that Susan Wise Bauer suggests using CM methods plus some more uniquely CM subjects that are tough to accomplish weekly on my own. We have committed women who are "like-minded" who share the teaching responsibility equally. People pursue classical/CM educations at home to varying degrees. Everybody chips in. I get borderline offended when I read posts where it is implied that CC has the corner on the market of "quality," like-minded women, as if they are in short supply and limited to CC communities. There are many co-ops in my community. Most of them have dedicated, committed, hard-working "quality" individuals as members. There are other groups out there that may meet your needs. And if there aren't, don't be afraid to start something. Just be aware that the recruitment for CC is intense. Now for the original poster... I have a hard time not finishing things that I start (what does that make my Myers-Briggs type? :)) I will say that our attendance dwindled down to almost non-existent by the end of our year at CC, but I'd delivered my 3rd child at the end of February and wasn't motivated to drag my newborn out when my 4 year-old had lost interest in memory work sometime back in the previous December. If I could have gotten a partial refund, I probably would've bolted midway through. Unfortunately, I am not very convinced that if you do CC for one isolated year you yield much benefit. Just ask me how much my 4 year-old remembers from CC! I always say it was our best year of speech therapy. My son couldn't even say words like Ahmenhotep the Fourth and Monotheism. :) Anyway, please be aware that while CC is NOT a good fit for my family (and others here), does not mean that you should automatically drop out. You have to trust your gut and discern where the Lord leads you. A few weeks ago I found notes that I had taken from the middle of our CC year listing my specific issues with CC. I was praying about approaching the Director with some of my concerns. I had the exact same issues then that I have now, and now I know WAY more about CC and my own personal home schooling philosophy than I did then. Maybe I would just love CC if I had stuck it out for the past several years, but we'll never know. ;) All I know is that I refuse to believe that I am somehow giving my kids a subpar education because I don't teach them geography for the entire world in three-year intervals. Your kids will probably succeed in whatever path you take, because you care enough to consider these issues.

I just wanted to share something I wrote a few months ago, because I finally took the time to sit down and articulate my reasons for pursuing other avenues. The pressure to join a community was quite intense this past summer, since there were so many new ones opening up. You may appreaciate my list. ;) Repost: I know Sonlight has done something like this, and I found I agreed with their list of reasons NOT to do Sonlight. I love their books and the company, but their list solidified why I didn't want to use their program. In that same vein, I have written a list of 27 Reasons NOT to do CC. My goal is not to slander CC, but in a slightly humorous way summarize and convey some of the criticisms that have been voiced on TWTM boards. As with anything, there are pros and cons to any co-op, curriculum, etc. If any of these cause you to pause, maybe you should do more research on that particular point. 27 Reasons NOT to join Classical Conversations: 1.) You are required to stay and observe the class if you are not tutoring. You think you’ll be bringing newspapers or a novel to read by the end of the year. Maybe you’ll even brazenly start clipping coupons, because it only takes one other mom to pass out crayons. 2.) You like your history in four or six year cycles and can’t imagine reducing it to three. 3.) You like teaching your children their memory work in context. 4.) You don’t need to pay hundreds to thousands of dollars (depending on family size) for the benefit of a home school community. 5.) You don’t want to choose between “fleshing out the material at home†and teaching memory work out of context. 6.) You like other classical latin programs that use song for teaching your little ones latin memory work much better than what CC offers - and you can wait until they are ready for it. 7.) You think it is silly to compare the cost of trained music teachers to tutors when there is very little training of one compared to the other. 8.) You don’t appreciate the strong sales pitches made to join CC at every turn. (*This may be most relevant to you - as you will feel a need to grow your community/business*) 9.) You understand that while all that is required is the tin whistle and the Foundations guide, to really succeed you need to buy a memory work CD, a CC Connected subscription, pictorial timeline cards, and some cute memory cards on a keychain. 10.) Opportunity cost: you value your time and money. You can buy a lot of books and can afford an online latin class for the cost of CC. You can join a co-op that better meets your specific areas of weakness. 11.) You realize that if you purchase curriculum from classical publishers, they have memory work built into their programs. CC grammar memory and math songs would be redundant. 12.) You think CC corporate is extremely quirky about their position on copyright. So how many times do you have to purchase their material anyway? 13.) You don’t think CC is the only way to provide a Classical Christian education. 14.) You realize CC corporate exists to serve classical homeschoolers who are members of their communities. 15.) You like The Well-Trained Mind better than The Core. 16.) You lean a little more Charlotte Mason. 17.) You feel like CC Connected is unfairly benefitting from the hard work of its valuable paid members, because the members supply tons of content and to your knowledge receive no monetary reimbursement for their time and effort (CC owns the material and the forum). 18.) You think it is crazy to mandate 4 year-old siblings to register for the program instead of playing in the preschool room. But then again you are paying an extra cost for babysitting your little ones - not a preschool program. 19.) You would have trouble abiding by the following: Thou shalt not say anything critical of or negative about your personal CC experience and why it wasn’t a good fit for your family. 20.) Not all tutors are equal. 21.) You may not like the emphasis on earning Memory Master status, especially if your child has learning challenges. 22.) There is no 100% satisfaction guarantee. All money is paid up front. 23.) You don’t need someone to model memory work. It just isn’t that tough. 24.) Youtube is free. 25.) Twenty-four weeks of six subjects of memory work is a very long time and a whole lot of unrelated information. In fact, it is too fast and too much for your personal taste. Can we memorize a poem or a hymn now (see #16)? 26.) You don’t see how it is possible to really teach quality art, science, and music in the time allotted if the parents aren’t asked to supplement with context at home and the paid tutors may or may not know what they are talking about. (See #7 and #20) 27.) You don’t think the community at CC is somehow academically superior to other groups serving the elementary ages and recognize that people use many different philosophies and methodologies for their child’s education - and God uses them too.

We also do the geography map exercises in the SOTW AG. My 4th grader has learned so much geography over 4 years just by faithfully completing the weekly exercises. No drilling or killing involved and completely age appropriate. :)

We've been doing Simply Charlotte Mason's Visits to Africa and learning this rap on Youtube: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vl9e809Y8Ec. We learn a little more of the song every week, and it will take us about 24 weeks (we're eliminating the map it yourself exercises of the SCM). I plan on doing the combination for as many years as I can line the two resounces up. I just like doing memory work in context and with song.

I added IXL to our RightStart this year, and my kids love it. We were able to buy it for about $10/child. An educator homeschool parent friend of ours was able to set up a "class" and included several other families.

My son has a history with writing similar to your son. For lack of a better way to decribe it, I tell people he has dysgraphia. We've been trying to tackle this issue for close to a year now. We did three months of Dianne Craft plus many of the recommendations from her Biology of Behavior CD. It helped him gain some automaticity, but the exercises caused a lot of anxiety and meltdowns. He then started clinching his fists every few seconds (motor tic) and had to give up piano lessons. The tics transitioned to a chronic throat-clearing once we stopped all the writing 8 exercised. We decided that working with neuroplasticity is not the answer for him - not until we find the underlying cause. My son has a lot of sensory processing issues also. He does grip his pencil too tightly and craves deep pressure to help him relax. We then went to a neuropsych ed guy who gave us lots of numbers associated with what we already knew. Now we know he has 5th % motor speed and is borderline gifted in verbal AND math. He also has slow processing speed and poor working memory. Neuroed guy gave our son an ADHD diagnosis. He said he has difficulty writing because he can't focus long enough to do it. Somewhere along the way we started swimming on a competitive swim team to help with cross-brain activity. My son likes the feel of the water on his body (calming deep pressure). We then went ahead and paid more $$ for OT for the SPD. We were told by OT and neuroed psych doctor that OT would have little benefit for his writing. Now we use mechanical pencils, write on an angle, and have learned to type. If anything, the OT program we did gave him some tools to deal with his emotional levels until we can figure out how to get to the root of his issues. We went to another doctor who found some gut-related issues (low chymotrypsin {enzyme digests protein}, inflammation of the colon, low SIgA levels {poor immune system in gut}). So now we are chasing down a nutitionist who focuses on food sensitivites and intolerances. We started a very restrictive diet for him and only lasted for six days. We saw amazing improvement only to add back in a few items and have him lose all ability to focus and become an emotional basketcase. So we are enlisting the help of this nutritionist. I think we are onto something now. All in all, I share this say that you may have to run down a few rabbit holes until you find the right one. Your child may also have more than one issue or many issues that stem from the same origin.

Had to remove the link to my Pinterest page - kept getting hacked. I am going to see if removing my link here helps. Sorry!

The timeline song is $8 and is one of the very few things that can be individually purchased for a reasonable price outside a community. http://www.classicalconversationsbooks.com/allageso.html I found the lyrics online. There are some sections where the tempo is so fast I could not understand what she was singing. I am not sure if it is "legal" for the song to be presented anywhere, but my CD download did not come with the lyrics. I couldn't understand the section that said "Hittites and Canaanites, Kush, Assyrians..." Once you purchase the song, just type in and google part of the lyrics. You should find it pretty easily that way.

http://www.classicalconversationsbooks.com/allageso.html

Despite my criticism, I have found ways to implement some of their materials in our school. The time line song is available online as a download for $8. I am having my kids learn their portion of the song (1 kid in Ancients and 1 in Moderns) as we drive to soccer. I just want them to know 1/4 of it this year. My 4 year-old picks up on some of it, but I don't have to pay $300+ for her. She also knows most of the First Language Lessons chants (there is an audio grammar CD from SWB too). There are certain materials CC produces I think are helpful, but because CC bundles everything so tightly for use alongside of their communities, I have just sought out other resources that are just as good - if not better. A lot of the memory work on their resource CD is still spoken, so you have to download songs from CC Connected. Thankfully, they are not the only outfit out there producing memory songs. The next best alternative: make your own memory work CDs and drive around with them in your car. :-) Alternatively, you can follow Susan Wise Bauer's recommended memory selections. Leigh Bortins says herself in the Foundations Guide that she borrowed very heavily from a children's history encyclopedia when writing her history sentences. There are so many free resources out there right now. If you are looking for ways to implement memory work in your home school, just know that CC is not your only option or the only way! For me, if your philosophy does not very closely match CC's interpretation of classical you may be pretty unhappy by the 24th week. CC is very impressive if you just go and sit in on a class or hear a 4 year-old sing a history sentence. Dig a little deeper to see if it is a fit for you. :)

BTW, if anything I wrote is unfactual, please let me know. I know things change over time, and it has been a while since I was involved in a community.

Since you asked, I will answer according to my experience with Foundations. :) I know Sonlight has done something like this, and I found I agreed with their list of reasons NOT to do Sonlight. I love their books and the company, but their list solidified why I didn't want to use their program. In that same vein, I have written a list of 27 Reasons NOT to do CC. My goal is not to slander CC, but in a slightly humorous way summarize and convey some of the criticisms that have been voiced on TWTM boards. As with anything, there are pros and cons to any co-op, curriculum, etc. If any of these cause you to pause, maybe you should do more research on that particular point. 27 Reasons NOT to join Classical Conversations: 1.) You are required to stay and observe the class if you are not tutoring. You think you’ll be bringing newspapers or a novel to read by the end of the year. Maybe you’ll even brazenly start clipping coupons, because it only takes one other mom to pass out crayons. 2.) You like your history in four or six year cycles and can’t imagine reducing it to three. 3.) You like teaching your children their memory work in context. 4.) You don’t need to pay hundreds to thousands of dollars (depending on family size) for the benefit of a home school community. 5.) You don’t want to choose between “fleshing out the material at home†and teaching memory work out of context. 6.) You like other classical latin programs that use song for teaching your little ones latin memory work much better than what CC offers - and you can wait until they are ready for it. 7.) You think it is silly to compare the cost of trained music teachers to tutors when there is very little training of one compared to the other. 8.) You don’t appreciate the strong sales pitches made to join CC at every turn. (*This may be most relevant to you - as you will feel a need to grow your community/business*) 9.) You understand that while all that is required is the tin whistle and the Foundations guide, to really succeed you need to buy a memory work CD, a CC Connected subscription, pictorial timeline cards, and some cute memory cards on a keychain. 10.) Opportunity cost: you value your time and money. You can buy a lot of books and can afford an online latin class for the cost of CC. You can join a co-op that better meets your specific areas of weakness. 11.) You realize that if you purchase curriculum from classical publishers, they have memory work built into their programs. CC grammar memory and math songs would be redundant. 12.) You think CC corporate is extremely quirky about their position on copyright. So how many times do you have to purchase their material anyway? 13.) You don’t think CC is the only way to provide a Classical Christian education. 14.) You realize CC corporate exists to serve classical homeschoolers who are members of their communities. 15.) You like The Well-Trained Mind better than The Core. 16.) You lean a little more Charlotte Mason. 17.) You feel like CC Connected is unfairly benefitting from the hard work of its valuable paid members, because the members supply tons of content and to your knowledge receive no monetary reimbursement for their time and effort (CC owns the material and the forum). 18.) You think it is crazy to mandate 4 year-old siblings to register for the program instead of playing in the preschool room. But then again you are paying an extra cost for babysitting your little ones - not a preschool program. 19.) You would have trouble abiding by the following: Thou shalt not say anything critical of or negative about your personal CC experience and why it wasn’t a good fit for your family. 20.) Not all tutors are equal. 21.) You may not like the emphasis on earning Memory Master status, especially if your child has learning challenges. 22.) There is no 100% satisfaction guarantee. All money is paid up front. 23.) You don’t need someone to model memory work. It just isn’t that tough. 24.) Youtube is free. 25.) Twenty-four weeks of six subjects of memory work is a very long time and a whole lot of unrelated information. In fact, it is too fast and too much for your personal taste. Can we memorize a poem or a hymn now (see #16)? 26.) You don’t see how it is possible to really teach quality art, science, and music in the time allotted if the parents aren’t asked to supplement with context at home and the paid tutors may or may not know what they are talking about. (See #7 and #20) 27.) You don’t think the community at CC is somehow academically superior to other groups serving the elementary ages and recognize that people use many different philosophies and methodologies for their child’s education - and God uses them too.

I am using it and really like it. My son has a written motor speed of 5%, so he burst out in angry tears over LfC A when we tried it in book form last year. He loves Latin on the computer this year. They have a lot of dropdown boxes and you are given choices to select from, so it is probably a little easier than filling in a bunch of blank lines. Nonetheless, he is learning Latin in a gentle fashion. The program has been a little glitchy, but they have been working diligently to remedy them. The biggest issue I had with the programming has already been resolved. Does that help? I got in on the early bird special, and I hope they offer that rate again in the future!