I am on the site. Please let me know if I am violating something by reposting here: Removed at the request of SWB to remove posts containing words from other people. 9/10/2014

We use a combination of Simply Charlotte Mason's Visits to Africa, living books, map drill, interesting things I find on the Internet, and this rap: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vl9e809Y8Ec. The rap artist has several other geography based songs, and they are very catchy! We reduced the SCM resource to 24 weeks by eliminating some of the Make Your Own Map exercises and focusing on approx 2 countries each week. Usually I just highlight one of them more in depth. We learn a few lines of the rap each week. Hope that helps.

This thread has me looking further into this subject. I am currently listening to: How Do We Teach the Integration of All Subjects? by Panel Discussions 6/23/2012 from the Association of Classical and Christian Schools. First two speakers on the panel were very theoretical. I really liked the third person (~27 mins). Now they are heading into practical applications. I know it is geared toward teachers, but it has been interesting. Curious to hear the practical app now. http://www.accsedu.org/conferences/conference_recordings_player_and_archive

I stumbled across this recently: http://www.classicalhistorian.com/classical-historian-dvd-program.html I don't know anything about it, but maybe someone else can chime in. I pinned it for consideration for the future to help aid discussion.

The best advice I can give you when searching for a co-op is to find one that shares your expectations and makes them explicit. If you expect people to show up prepared or hold their children to a certain standard of discipline, look for a co-op that asks moms and their children to sign something that commits them to these things, for example: committed attendance, coming prepared, abiding by certain codes of conduct, faith-based teaching (if important to you). There are co-ops consisting of women with integrity to follow-through. I joined a co-op for two years that passed out a 50+ page binder at the beginning of co-op and had extremely high expectations for members (with only fees charged for supplies, building, insurance, etc). Hope that helps! I don't think it is fair to paint all co-ops as having less-than-desirable attributes. Like the person above, when CC did not fit my needs, I ended up starting something small that was unavailable in other existing co-ops. Actually, there weren't any other co-ops nearby when we started ours. We participated in two co-ops for two years, but this year we decided to focus just on our small Charlotte Mason group that is more local. Both co-ops have been wonderful experiences for our family and have been filled with committed women who show up prepared. It helps that both co-ops require a syllabus and pick supporting curriculum before the co-op season begins.

I do just want to be clear that I never received hate mail - just emotionally charged messages that did lead to more conversational messages. I edited that post to rein in the hyperbole. No one was very happy with what I'd said, but it would not qualify at all as hate mail.

For us, it has enabled my son to do Latin at all. We actually own the workbook, the videos, and the whole kit and caboodle. My son has very slow written motor speed. When we introduced the workbook version in 3rd grade, he started crying and punching holes in his paper. This was the child who loved Song School Latin, so that was part of what helped us identify that we had some problems beyond "boys don't like to write." He is able to watch the videos online and the whole experience is very engaging and independent. He chants along with the teachers, etc. The LfC workbook has a lot of fill in the blank exercises. I think Thinker's Cap Academy is a tad easier due to more drop-down boxes with choices and some fill-in-the-blank answers. It helped make the transition from SSL a little easier as well. He will tell you that Latin is one of his favorite subjects. That's what I really like about CAP: the emphasis on the creative presentation. My second son does not have any learning issues, but I plan on using LfC online + Headventureland.com with him when he gets to 4th grade too. I think I'll have him continue in SSL2 next year which was not available for my first son. I think you can view the first three weeks online for free. The program also keeps track of grades and helps them keep track of what they need to complete before moving on. While it can be quirky sometimes, it is fun for him to have a real grade in a subject. I don't give him any other grades. I just love it because I can say "go do Latin" and he does it without complaint. I can check his scores to double-check for comprehension. We slow down and speed up accordingly. Have you checked out Lively Latin for your 6th grader? I think that one is geared toward older children with no background in Latin. I hope that helps! The online program has really made our Latin experience a very pleasant one.

I plan on incorporating Ellen McHenry's songs next year for our run again through the Ancients: http://www.ellenjmchenry.com/music/index.php I would like to see a sharing web site set-up where people could contribute videos clips and resources for aiding with memory work. I would love to sit down and brainstorm and try my hand at some jingles/chants for history and science too. My son seems to respond really well to the chanting in Latin for Children, and I've heard Chris Perrin mention how underutilized chanting is in classical ed. Unfortunately, my 5th pregnancy is sucking out my brain and extra energy right now. Part of me wonders how *important* it is to memorize sentences though. I guess the balance in my mind would be to pick the really important things to memorize - the most bang for your buck. I have been wondering what they do in classical schools across the country for history and science memory work. Unfortunately, we don't have a classical school anywhere close to where I live. Personally, I like about 50% of CC's history sentences, and the other 50% I have trouble understanding or making much sense out of (too wordy, make giant leaps in history within the same sentence) even though we're finishing up Moderns now. I am just trusting they've corrected or edited the ones I dislike since the 2nd edition Foundations guide and memory work CD I own. I think this is a worthy project, and this isn't the first time I've thought about it. The web site could include resources that have already been made (links to where to purchase), provide links to helpful YouTube videos, list user-provided content by dates/timeperiods, etc., provide helpful tips and videos for people looking to implement memory work gently with success. Oh...for the time...

Thanks for all the feedback. I am still kinda on the fence about where we go next. The countdown is on though - we start our new school year in June. This does make me think I should continue with RS in geometry two days a week and maybe supplement with CLE 6 until we hit Lesson 81. The I could give Videotext a whirl since I already own it and see how it goes. So many decisions for next year. SOTW ends. FLL ends. RS ends (or does for many). This is my doesn't handle change well child and I am due in July. I know I'll need the solid month to get our rhythm before the baby arrives.

I checked out PP's lit guide for Number the Stars from our homeschool library. We blew through a couple chapters worth yesterday. I liked it, but I kept it strictly oral (ds has slow written motor speed). I've never used any other lit guides before, so I have nothing to really compare it to. My kids are a little younger. It made me inspired to try and incorporate more PP lit guides into our schoolwork.

I think there is some truth to the thought that some people are attracted to CC because someone tells them exactly what to do and when to do it. They place their trust in the system and like the people they meet who are using the exact same system. There is a feeling of safety and assurance of a job well done due to its objective nature. My child memorizes X,Y, and Z and we have a nice social outlet = feelings of a good home school year. Please forgive me if this is perceived as being critical of the actual families who choose to do CC. I am happy it works for some, but I involve myself more in this issue because of the aggressive marketing techniques, the impact it has on the larger home school movement, and all those new home school moms...

The irony is that unless CC imports people from other counties, the same people who you describe right now will be the people tutoring and forming the community. I am not sure a Foundations manual, a three-day practicum, and a few webinars are going to change that scenario dramatically. I am pretty sure that almost all publishers who write curriculum for home school parents desire to "equip parents in the teaching of their children." A lot of publishers have Yahoo sites and parents who've volunteered to field questions, in addition to reps on hand during business hours. Maybe CC should get more in the business of producing co-op materials if their vision is to help develop communities as a way to support homeschool families. What would CC look like without the required licensing of communities? The more I think about it, some of the issues are around the heavy-handed controlling nature of some of their policies and the exclusive usage of certain materials (to be used only a certain way) only within communities. For example, I am referring to mandating that all of your kids be enrolled to tutor challenge, mandating that one person teach 6 subjects (to me that makes quality control or achieving a certain standard almost impossible), not allowing groups to form their own fee structures/division of labor. IEW supports co-ops by the way they offer to sell the .PDF handouts and the allowance of their the videos to be shown in a group setting. They don't go around and make sure that every co-op using their materials makes all the kids use all the dress-ups in every paragraph! They have an instructor certification program, but from what I understand, it is optional. If anything, it does give people some credentialing to charge money for teaching the IEW program. It sounds like CC is strengthening that regional administrative layer to make sure groups operate uniformly, follow the protocols, have more consistency and quality control between communities. I know that it is being structured this way for accountability, but when does accountability cross over to control? Does everything need to be done exactly how one person envisions it on a national scale? While that is their right to do so, I have a feeling that is where the IRS designation for independent contractors is going to be a huge expensive issue if it is ever challenged. While I am not an accountant or tax attorney, I have had several discussions with our personal accountant over who can be designated an independent contractor. Individual autonomy, not being told how to do a certain job, using your own supplies, etc. are major factors in determining someone's tax status. I would think most teacher-paid co-ops can do this, because their teachers are not being told exactly when, what, and how they have to teach a subject. They probably agree on a curriculum and then the teacher has the freedom to use their specialized training to teach as they see fit.

Wow, I think you may be onto something. I hope they've run that by an accountant or a tax attorney. I've wondered about the legality of compensation before, but I didn't think about it from that angle. I was more thinking about all the uncompensated time the tutors spend preparing (esp. Challenge due to being required to teach 6 and integrate subjects - which would be tough even if you had a degree or 3 and office hours). http://www.irs.gov/Businesses/Small-Businesses-&-Self-Employed/Independent-Contractor-Defined http://www.irs.gov/Businesses/Small-Businesses-&-Self-Employed/Independent-Contractor-Self-Employed-or-Employee

I'd recommend looking at Thinker's Cap Academy, the online version of LFC, as well. HTH!

I'd recommend looking at Thinker's Cap Academy, the online version of LFC, as well. HTH!

I'd recommend looking at Thinker's Cap Academy, the online version of LFC, as well. HTH!

NASDAQ - Don't be too hard on the poster. It has been a really interesting series of threads though. It really isn't her decision how things are structured at CC. In fact, that is why I don't have any issues with anyone actually in or a part of CC. They really are just doing what they have been instructed or licensed to do. That is the policy, and they must follow it. I don't understand it either, but that is just the way it is. I would understand the need to have two adults present in the room for liability purposes.

I did learn something new last night. I had always wondered where the $75/child + $50/each additional child registration fee was going. I was told that money goes to funding all the regional support directors for ensuring support, oversight, and quality. That layer seems to be getting much deeper as the communities mushroom. I get disheartened when I hear about moms struggling with the memory work in CC. It just seems like memory work is so much easier when it is learned in context at an appropriate age/time. Learn grammar memory in grammar; learn Latin memory in Latin. The grammar stage goes all the way to 6th grade or so. You don't have to teach Latin declinsion endings to 4 year-olds. I don't think memory work is taught in classical schools the way CC presents its copious amounts of unrelated information in 2 three-year cycles completely out of context. There is no room for flexibility in the CC model. It just doesn't have to be so complicated or daunting. We've learned African geography this year in our co-op and we are spending all year on it (with mapping, some living books, and context). There is no reason to blow through the entire world in three years. The beauty is that even the way that I have found that works for us to do memory work isn't even the right way or the only way. There is no prescribed time table or list that is mandated in classical ed in a home school. Ironically, as CC is so against Common Core, I kinda see CC as the Common Core of classical ed. Every child learns the exact same thing at the exact same time.

In whatever video I watched, Andrew Pudewa said that if you preferred teaching or using traditional outlining, that it was fine too. I've been watching both SWI-A and the TWSS, so I don't remember in which one he said it. I don't know if that matters. At the end of the day, curriculum is a tool, and you can adapt it to suit your needs. :)

Thanks Calming Tea. I really don't have the time to address these all today. If anyone would like me to elaborate on any one particular point, I'd be happy to do that. I really didn't want to be snarky, but my goal was kinda punchy and succinct. I did have extensive facebook conversations with my previous Area Director today, and I probably need to go back and patch some things up with my friend who is the Support Manager. I think I really angered her by posting that she had contacted me on here. That said, the move does really support my feelings that very little is tolerated when it comes to speaking of the issues I've mentioned. It supports what people have said on here about being concerned about offending friends or receiving backlash.

I'll just try and respond as I have time. While this list is not perfect, I think it is a helpful springboard for talking points. Unfortunately, I think people who love CC are less likely to want to hear any counterpoints or truly understand why someone isn't as enamored as they are with the program. There is a zealousness that is out there. I do think the MLM analogy is helpful, because people start to become defined by their involvement. In their minds, no longer are you assessing a program or a curriculum or a methodology, but to them you are critiquing them personally. #1 - I think it would be pretty easy to set it up so that the parents have access to the hand jives, etc. without actually being required to attend, especially with the aid of CC Connected. By the end of my time in Foundations, I was bringing newspapers and things to read, etc. The only thing to really do to contribute was help with the crayons during the geography portion. That was my experience. Maybe others are fine to chill out. I just knew I couldn't be a silent observer again. I would have to tutor but that mandates becoming a contracted employee. #4 - Community is billed a being a major component of CC. Many people say they do it specifically for community. It is important to note that there are several ways to find community without having to pay for it. Some people think it is worth the money. It is something to seriously consider. Sometimes those opportunities may be harder to find, because advertising not a big priority for most home school groups and don't have the muscle CC has behind it. Unfortunately, most home school groups don't include 4 year olds, and I think a lot of moms (like me) are really excited to do something education with a group. So I do admit that it is tougher for a mother of a 4 year old to find a homeschool group where she can find community. #13 - The way that CC defines Classical Ed one would think that every interpretation of Classical Ed places as much value on those pegs as Leigh Bortins does. The Bluedorns, The Well-Trained Mind, etc. just seem to have a slightly different approach. If I research the other classical distributors or classical schools, you just don't see the volume of out-of-context memory work. Using "the core" seems to be a very unique to CC approach, but by reading CC materials, one would think that the methodology in Foundations is how all classical educators go about working out the grammar stage of the Trivium.

I was reported to the local regional CC support person by my previous director (from 2008!) because of the content of this post. Thankfully, I've known the Regional contact for years. Honestly, I didn't know she had assumed that position alongside directing Foundations. But seriously, is my 27 Reasons list so threatening to cause such a brouhaha? Our experience was not "bad," but many things made it not a great fit. I know my perspective is not unique having spent some times on these forums. I also have some concerns about the aggressive recruiting/expansion strategies. I am very careful to keep my comments to "wasn't a good fit for us" on our local facebook homeschool group (300 families). Really. Reported. Makes me really happy to no longer be a part of my local community. That may be my new 28th reason.

Ironically, most of the people I've seen end up in Classical Conversations weren't pursuing a classical education before CC, so I don't even think they are aware of the different neo-classical interpretations and their differences. The Ambleside forum was pretty insightful fleshing those distinctions out. I was aware of them but not to the degree that was discussed over on that forum.

CC is a very unique home school business in the sense that people have to choose between paying a tuition for other moms to teach or becoming a contracted employee themselves. While it is not an MLM, it seems to employ a lot of the same techniques to expand that MLMs do with peer marketing, etc. See the above commentary about having to report to higher levels with numbers of contacts made, open houses, etc. Sometimes it seems that the starting of new communities has less to due with demand and more to do with someone willing to start a new one. The local CC communities are not my only exposure to CC. There are a sizable number of home school blogs right now pumping reasons why people should join CC. I encourage you to read the thread from the beginning. The original poster is in a CC community and had been asked to become a tutor of one of the higher levels (can't remember which one). I don't think it is fair to compare the cost of a private education to the cost of CC. It is comparing apples to oranges.

I was referring to a previous poster's assertion that even though a poster didn't feel like CC would be a good fit for her family, the reluctant mom was advised to pray about serving homeschoolers through CC - as if there aren't any other groups that may better meet her needs/family situation and allow her to fulfill a calling to serve the homeschool community. That attitude does seem to prevail among many people involved in CC.