i appreciate your concern. There are some great books on classical education that are not overtly Christian, including Climbing Parnassus, as mentioned above. Norms and Nobility has a chapter on The Promise of Christian Paideia but otherwise can be handled as a source for secular ideas. Mortimer Adler's Reforming Education and anything else he wrote prior to his 90th birthday is also secular and very helpful. Of course, Plato and Aristotle are above average and fantastically insightful, as are Homer, Hesiod, Sophocles, Euripides, Aeschylus, and a few other Greek playwrights and poets. Cicero is passable too, as is Virgil. :) You'll find the best work about classical education from a secular perspective written between 1880 and 1920, after which it was pretty much routed from the schools. You don't have to be a Christian to value classical education, it's just that Christian culture preserved it for 1850 years or so, so it's hard now to disentangle them. I hope you are able to find some books that satisfy your need!

This brings me to another application I want to offer you. How do you ensure that your students are engaged, that your curriculum is integrated, and that you are all actually learning and not just having either fun or misery? There's a natural course a child goes through to learn something (and for adults too). It applies to every lesson that is oriented to knowing a truth, from the simplest to the most complex. And it begins with you preparing them to receive it. A lesson will natural walk through five stages on the way to the truth. Those stages have been described by Aristotle, Augustine, Aquinas, and even early proto-progressives like Herbert Spencer. If you teach successfully you will have gone through these stages, whether you knew it or not. Stage 1: Preparation of the student's mind. During this stage you raise to your child's mind as much as you judge beneficial of what they already know about the truth to be learned. For example, if you are about to teach them how to add two digit numbers together, let them enjoy how much they already know about one digit numbers, + signs, = signs, etc. If you are about to read a fable (Grasshopper and ants, say) ask them what they know about grasshoppers, ants, fiddles, etc. and ask them if they've ever had to work hard or if they've ever wanted to listen to music while they worked, etc. Stage 2: Present types (illustrations, examples, analogies, etc.) of the truth. These are specific embodiments of a truth to be learned. In math, you would present a few two column addition problems to them and work through them while they watch, gradually handing them over to the students. In the fable, you would read the story (which is a type of a truth). Stage 3: Compare types. In math, you'd ask your children: what did I do this time and this time and this time? What did I do differently this time compared to this time. etc. In a fable, you'd compare the grasshopper to the ants (how are they alike, how different? what did the g do? what did the ants do? what did each get? who would have been happier/wiser/etc. at the end?). Then you can compare stories. For example, you could compare this fable with one you've already read, or you could ask, does this remind you of any other stories or events from anything you've ever read or experienced? Stage 4: Student expresses the truth in her own words In math, ask: when I make you do 1000 of these tonight, how will you do it? In a fable ask: what is the point of this story? (I never tell students the moral). Stage 5: Student embodies the lesson learned in an artifact or action In math, give them 1000 problems to practice the lesson learned In the fable, tell them to apply the moral somehow in their own actions. Note: Do not ask them to write a fable after this lesson for the simple reason that you did not just teach them how to write a fable. That would be a good lesson, but it isn't the one I just described. This applies across the curriculum and is surprisingly easy to do once you get the hang of it. The benefits are endless, not least that you'll see how things fit together across subjects and kids love that. Plus you remember more because you are constantly reviewing everything you've ever taught. I'm off for Greenville tomorrow, so I probably won't be able to play with you ladies and gentlemen for a while, but thanks for letting me in this week. I hope it's had some value for you. Remember, as the one poster quoted Proverbs: Wisdom is the principle thing; therefore, get wisdom!

this was just pointed out to me and I thought I'd let you know that I will be in Cincinnati with Buck. At the least I'll be manning a table. I might do some co-presentations with Buck too. He's a better practical teacher than I am though, so I don't want to get in his way. See you there!

I know there have been a couple times when a toe or two might have crossed a line, but I have to say I'm truly impressed by the respect I'm seeing in this incredibly delicate discussion. Talk about a way to challenge a friendship. I grew up in a Christian family - fundamentalist in many ways, and believed quite firmly in the American version of heaven and hell, although hell was always a great deal more vivid than heaven. I've been surprised over the years to learn how many different understandings orthodox Christianity has permitted through the centuries. At the root of my beliefs about the afterlife are a few convictions: 1. There is something "divine" about human beings (the Greeks called it a divine spark, the Hebrews the divine image). Too much can't be explained by material terms for me to be satisfied by the promise that it is only a matter of time before we figure it all out. And if I did accept that promise, what it leaves of the human becomes so minimal that I can't believe it's true. 2. The human soul yearns for a harmony that aligns it within itself and to the cosmos around it. It also yearns for a harmony with something beyond the cosmos, something non-material and inexplicable, without which it seems to be very unsatisfied. That yearning is so universal and so beyond the material that I cannot believe it is not valid. There is something there that we want and without which we seem unable to find that harmony. 3. The material world is good and beautiful and worth tending and living in harmony with. It gives all the evidence that it came from somewhere, though - that is to say, it is not self-sufficient. It needs both a source and a caretaker. 4. God is love, but he doesn't seem to regard suffering physically as the worst thing that can happen to a person. 5. The harmony in our souls, in our communities, in our world, and with our God is broken and the only thing that can be done about that is to try to reharmonize them. 6. The only way we can know about things we can't perceive ourselves is if somebody tells us about it. For these reasons, and a few more, I believe that we have come from somewhere and are not pre-existent, but that we are made to live forever in a state where all of our powers are realized in that perfect harmony of the physical and the spiritual with all the "parts" and powers aligned toward a single end sufficient to hold the whole harmony together. I find that I can't give up the belief that both the physical and the spiritual are of infinite value without the tapestry unravelling. So I believe both body and soul will be resurrected. But once I've accepted all that stuff I find that the only tradition that holds it all together is the Christian doctrine of God becoming flesh to bring man into the Holy Trinity. However, I'm not bound to accept any particular, local Christian doctrine that is just a moment in time. The church has always taught that there is a judgment and a heaven and hell, but what those are is beyond our capacity to grasp. Sometimes it seems like there's more of Virgil's Aeneid than of the New Testament in some western teachings on hell and the afterlife. Somebody wrote above that hell is that sense of shame we feel in the presence of God. That makes sense to me. Heaven is the eternal echo of His well-done in the just soul. Sorry to go on so long about this, but you got me thinking and I haven't put my thoughts on this topic into writing in a very long time.

I've had this same problem and there are two things that have helped me: 1. Zypan, a "pill" (not a drug) that replenishes your stomach's acids so it doesn't have to produce so much that it creates reflux. 2. Apple cider vinegar. A capful in a glass of water is all you need and it doesn't taste as bad as it sounds. I prefer it to plain water. Good luck. Acid reflux is a nuisance.

Hi Delaney, Just read one fairy tale at a time and only read the ones you want to read. No need to read every one of them! I might add that if they ask you to read the same one over and over, do it! It's healing. Enjoy the reads and drop the weights! ajk

I have to thank you, but with a bit of a bemused smile, for liking that talk on analytical teaching. I remember being extremely disappointed with it after I gave it, so I tried to listen to it yesterday. I must say, the high point is when I read the quotation from Burke. So far as I could tell, it went rapidly downhill from there. So I thank you for the comforting realization that our Lord still uses things we do even when we do them rather poorly. Somehow the truth itself can overcome our delivery of it. I think we can all find comfort in that as teachers, right?:001_smile:

Because I want to offer some practical thoughts as well, let me offer you some actionable ideas that I think you'll all find helpful as you think through these many issues (I get giddy thinking about how much thought you are putting into raising your children - they will be blessed for it!). Maintain your balance by including skills, ideas, AND facts in your instruction. For example, in math, students need to flat out master the math facts. That comes through drill and repetition - no other way. In addition, they need to understand mathematical ideas, and all of them depend on math facts. A mathematical idea can be as abstract as the definition of a point (my favorite is Euclid's: a point is that which has no part), a half concrete/half abstract principle like the distributive property, or something very concrete like the way you add two digit numbers together (on paper: first you add the one's column, then you add the ten's column). And finally, they need to get good at executing mathematical skills, like adding, subtracting, multiplying, dividing, estimating, measuring, etc. etc. In learning, the reason we learn facts and skills is so that we can perceive the truths they enable us to see. So a practical tip I would offer is that when you prepare each lesson, you focus your attention on the idea you want your child to understand. Then identify the skills they'll need to practice in order to see the idea. Then identify the facts or data they'll need to know in order to see the idea. However, at first this will be time consuming, so only do it for one class the first week. The first time you do anything it takes a lot longer, so don't worry about how long it takes. You'll get quicker and quicker as you better understand how to do it. But when you do it, you'll find that your teaching orders itself to what matters most: truth. Two exceptions: sometimes a lesson is specifically for practicing a skill, such as spelling, reading, writing, adding, etc (if it's a verb, it's a skill). In that case, focus on the facts they'll need to know to practice the skill (e.g. 3+2=5 is a fact they'll need to know to add quickly) and the ideas they'll need to understand (e.g. to divide one number by another, you determine how many of the latter will fit into the former). Sometimes a lesson is for learning facts, such as history names, dates, and places. In that case, all you need to do is give them the facts and make sure they keep them. This leads me to a further thought on a crucial difference between learning natures and learning conventions, both of which are necessary, but neither of which I can write about right now. Maybe I can get to it tomorrow. I really appreciate this discussion and hope to see some of you at least at the upcoming Great Home School Conventions. If you're in Greenville this week, please stop by and say hi! God bless your teaching/parenting!!!!

I'm not supposed to advertise and hope I'm not, but the Lost Tools of Writing takes Crowley's principles (drawn from Cicero, Aristotle, etc) and turns them into a series of exercises. That might meet your need.

That's a good start. Now direct your attention from the math (the tool) to the child and ask what goes on in his mind when he does math. If you are uncomfortable with math, notice some things you said: 1. there are facts. What should your child do with those facts? 2. They need to be understood. This is a harder question, so we can come back to it, but: how does one come to understand facts? 3. Here is how 3+2=5 and never 6. Notice that you are talking about how to do something here, which requires an ability, while facts just have to be remembered. You've identified three different kinds of thing to teach. Let's think about one of them at a time and start with facts. What does your child need to do to or with the math facts? Or put another way, what do the math facts demand of your child's mind?

Yes, exactly. That is the question! This is why I love this forum: you ladies are incredible because you are willing to ask these questions. Let's think about one of them, because I'm here to learn too. How do you teach math in a way that cultivates virtue? Can some of you list one way that math can cultivate virtue?

Yes, this is brilliant! Do this!! :)

Wow! I'm stunned by the flashes of insight flickering through this thread and honored more than you can imagine that things we've done at CiRCE have spoken to so many of you. You must know that my reverence for the home school mother - her intelligence, curiosity, and devotion - continues to grow. The question of providing a classical education is an amazingly difficult one, and that is why I am so reluctant to prescribe a curriculum or tell you what you should read. But let me try to say some immediately useful things: One, the orientation of your instruction is more important than the content of your instruction. Two, therefore the content of your instruction matters a lot too. Three, the paths to wisdom that are the classical curriculum are well trodden and well-marked, though they have become overgrown. Four, therefore, we can and must teach from a state of rest, not a state of anxiety. OK, let me explain myself. The trouble with conventional education is that it is oriented toward the wrong goals. It is about power in one form or another. Classical education subordinates power to the quest for virtue, especially wisdom. That changes everything. So if there is one practical thing I would urge you to do right now, it is to examine your purpose in teaching your child at home. If it is to get into a great college, impress the neighbors, change the world, or secure a fantastic job, I'm afraid you need to reconsider. You are shooting too low. It's not that these things don't matter (if they didn't "The gentiles" wouldn't seek them); it's that they aren't the purpose of a classical, especially not a Christian classical, education. On the other hand, if you seek wisdom and virtue, the odds of securing these things in a fitting and just way are much better than if you seek them directly. But beware: they will always tempt you from the true path. Two: the content of your instruction matters, not because you need to know it to pass tests, but because you need to know, understand, and be able to do certain things if you want to walk the path of wisdom. However, there is no reading list that everybody should follow. So here is my second immediate application: Ask yourself what duties your specific children in their specific contexts will be taking on. It is the assuming and fulfilling of our duties that makes us wise and virtuous, so we can't make this an abstract study for everybody, but a specific study for our own children. Here are some things to consider: What duties will they assume because they are human and what virtues, knowledge, and skills will they need to fulfill them? For example, being an effective human requires effective use of language, geared to blessing and not to cursing. How are you teaching your children to optimize their language skills to think, make decisions, and communicate? Being an effective human also requires effective use of shapes and numbers. How are you cultivating those faculties? Next, where do they live and what duties are implied in that location? For example, do you live in the USA? They will need to vote wisely. Do they know how to choose a leader? Do they know their role as a citizen? If they go into politics, will they know their job description (we call it the constitution)? Will they know how to make decisions in community? What are you doing to enable them to assume their responsibilities and prove themselves men and women as citizens? What is your spiritual tradition? When your children mature, will they be able to accept its flaws and uncynically assume their role within the tradition? Do they know the teachings and how to live them out? What are you doing to enable them to assume their responsibilities and prove themselves men and women in the life of their church? Are you on a farm? In a suburb? In a city? What do they need to learn to prove themselves men and women in the local community? Will they marry? What do they need to learn... Will they likely be parents? What do they need to learn, and when should they start learning... What family will they be a part of? Will they pass on the traditions and wisdom that your family has accumulated over the centuries? In sum, is the content of your curriculum enabling your students to fulfill the roles that life will give them? It is in those roles that they will become men or women, and it is in the concrete realities of everyday life that God will bless them into who they are. Our role is to prepare them to be humans, Americans, community members, family members, and virtuous persons. Could I give you a list of books to cover these things? It depends on your circumstances. Certainly I would urge classical languages taught rigorously, great books (if they're great, who cares which ones you read?), and artifacts that turn their gaze to truth. But the most important thing is not to read great books, but to learn how to read great books. Or better, to learn how to perceive truth embodied in artifacts (books, paintings, music, etc.) and to learn how to embody truth in our own lives (through actions and artifacts). So while what precedes might make you feel the earth shifting under your feet and thus anxious, I would urge you to embrace this approach because it enables you to teach from a state of rest, purposeful and not driven by anxiety. And that leads to my third point: we don't need to discover the classical curriculum. it's been followed off and on for almost three thousand years. People disagree about details, but it's not the details that matter so much as the end. Set your face to Jerusalem, as it were - set your path for virtue, and go back and see how it was done for all that time. It was simple. They set aside the myriad distractions that arise from the lost curriculum of the 20th century and focus on a few things: Language Mathematics Perception of truth By strengthening some absolutely core human faculties, the cultivation of which IS learning: 1. attentive perception 2. recollection (ie. a trained memory) 3. contemplation (the ability to note, recall, and compare - slowly) 4. Apprehension (the Eureka faculty - that God-given ability that knows when we have found the truth or how things fit together) 5. re-presentation (the ability to embody a truth we have learned in actions, words, or artifacts). So what can you do right now with this third point? Grab a note book and give it one page each for the five faculties above. Take one minute each day for the next while and describe how you will cultivate each faculty in your child, one faculty per day. For example, you might think about how to cultivate their faculty of attentive perception on Monday. Start, if necessary, by writing "I'm not sure what he means..." and then think about that. "Attentive - that has something to do with attention. He is saying we should teach our children how to pay attention. I dont' know how to do that. If I tell them to pay attention, that should be enough." OK, fine. You have begun to think about it. Your teaching will improve as a result. You know why? Because you have begun to give your attentive perception to something you need to attend to. Everything begins with the ability to pay attention. All learning is grounded in attentiveness. Don't let this go slack. Just ask: how can I help him develop this SKILL of attentiveness. On Tuesday, write about recollection. FOR ONE MINUTE. No more, or you'll be overwhelmed. We have to learn bit by bit, inch by inch, row by row, question by question, note by note. The path of wisdom is a path we need to walk. There's no helicopter ride to the top. Above all, I entreat you to note the fourth point: we must teach from a state of rest, not anxiety. if we are anxious, we will pass our anxiety on to our children. Anxiety does not lead to sound decisions or careful thinking. Shuck off the failed expectations and theories of the world you home school to escape. Obey the laws with joy, but don't let the establishment intimidate you. Even more, don't worry about the neighbors and their children or especially about this awful average quasi-child, non-existent child who you are supposed to use as your standard to assess your own child. Take your time. Rest. Don't even try to catch up. Identify the core skills you want your children to learn and find the best way to teach them (yes, Memoria Press is excellent for this). Identify the knowledge you want them to know and teach them. They won't remember what is in a text book anyway, so don't worry so much about which text book you use. There are hundreds and thousands of good and great books. Identify the ideas you want them to think about (you could include this on the page about apprehension above) and think about them. You'll make a thousand mistakes, but not as many as I have. But you'll learn so much you won't be able to stand the pleasure and you'll watch your children's souls flow to overflowing. And chances are, they'll pass the SAT test too. I hope I've given you something actionable/practical. I also hope you can see why I'm reluctant to prescribe more than is fitting. You get to decide what your child will learn. Keep seeking wisdom and enjoy the privilege. And keep it simple!

Hi Angela, et al I'm going to ask David to find that Good to Great talk and upload it as a podcast. I really appreciate the kind comments you all have been making about the CiRCE conference presentations. I have been thinking a lot lately about how it is the home school mom who alone is showing that necessary combination of brains, inquiry, and love for the student that is working the long awaited revolution in American education. How I do thank you for that devotion!!

I just read this thread and wanted to say thanks to you all for engaging with the idea. In all that you wrote there was an abundance of wisdom, and I think what Ester Maria wrote at the end of the post I've quoted might go to the very heart of it. False rigor, it seems to me, is driven by this yearning to keep up with the Joneses. There must be other drives too, but this seems like the heart and soul of what distracts us from doing what is best for our children. True rigor, it seems to me, is driven by a love of virtue and wisdom that leads us to "get wisdom, and with all your getting, get understanding." Thanks Ester Maria and thanks to all of you for helping me see this ever more clearly.

Glory, Thanks. It looks as though David was ahead of me and so were you. I must have been writing while you were checking.:grouphug: Thanks! ajk

Yvonne and Glory, I just saw your note about the error message and will let David know immediately. Thanks for mentioning it! Also, you will be able to get the whole set in either CD or download fairly soon, and it will be at a lower "per lecture" rate. If you are interested in that many lectures, you might want to wait a couple weeks. Hopefully the free stuff will hold you over till then! As for recommendations, the talk Angelina gave has been getting incredible buzz. People came up to me right after and said we need to get her to turn it into a book. I haven't had the chance to listen to the whole thing myself yet, but for what it's worth, that's what I've heard. We had a wonderful time of fellowship and contemplation and I'm very, very grateful to those who participated and to those who mentioned it here. Blessings on you all as you seek to nourish your children's souls on the true, the good, and the beautiful!!!

Jackie, I agree, the scientific approach will only take you so far, but it will take you somewhere if it is ordered to the right end. What I don't want to do is to put the two in conflict with each other. But the whole is more important than the part and wisdom is more important than analysis. Therefore, the way the "two sides" can be at peace is when the analysis submits to the true, the good, and the beautiful - to the pursuit of wisdom. Thanks for your kind comments. On the Tequilla Mockingbird, I confess that I snuck that in there on purpose. I want to open a Mexican restaurant with that name. ;)

To my mind, a core issue going through what I've been able to read of these posts is a sort of cart/horse problem. Literary analysis is important, but not for its own sake. So when it is taught and why it is taught matter. Considered in itself, the goal is not to make people enjoy a text but to enable them to understand it better. However, I believe with the classical tradition that understanding often precedes enjoyment. But every story has a common nature and that nature is the most important element of learning how to read closely. It's very simple: every story is about a person who does something for a reason. Every story is about human action (even a fable about animals). We love to see human actions imitated in stories for a lot of reasons. But it seems to me that the main reason is that we are constantly trying to figure out our own lives and its easier and more pleasant to do so with pictures than with lectures. Younger and less experienced readers, therefore, should not get lost in the details of literary analysis. They should be absorbed in the actions of the story. I content that the best question to discuss in order to do that, and the question that drove the writer when he wrote the story (even if he didn't know it) is very simple: Should the main character (or any other character really) have done his main action (or any other action)? Alex above used the Iliad, so I'll draw on that: Should Achilles have withdrawn from the battle? (or, Should he have killed Agamemnon in the first book? should he have sent his friend into battle in his armor? etc.) Or try Tequilla Mockingbird: Should Atticus have defended (I forgot his name, sorry)? (or Should Scout have crawled under the neighbor's fence, etc.) Or try Shakespeare: Should Lear have handed his realm to his daughters? Should Hamlet have avenged his father? Should Benedick have given his heart to Beatrice? Should Richard Burton have tamed Liz Taylor? Or try history: Should Washington have crossed the Delaware? Should Caesar have crossed the Rubicon? Should Moses have crossed the Red Sea? Should the US have "revolted" against Britain? Should the south have seceded? Should anybody who did anything have done it? I would argue that none of this IS dissecting the story, but all of it MAKES dissecting the story worth doing. It turns it from a technical analysis (profitable for many) into a pursuit of wisdom (profitable for all). It precedes analysis; it does not undercut but enlivens it. And it makes for incredibly interesting discussions and essays. This is the analogy I like to use: If you want to study a frog, you have to first see it as a living creature. You need to go to the pond and watch what it does: how does it behave, eat, reproduce, play, grow, die, etc. etc. That's a frog. Play with it first. Then murder it and dissect it. But remember, the thing you are dissecting is not the frog, but the frog's body. They aren't the same thing. So it is with literary analysis. First, let the story live. Enter into it. Follow the character through his actions and let him move you or not. Wonder what will happen next. Ask whether you would have done what he did. And so on. Play with the story, in other words. Then when you have done that for a while, your should question will naturally lead you into a very useful and practical and purposeful literary analysis. First you'll probably ask about characters, comparing them with each other and noting their relationships. Then you'll probably start noticing settings and their effect on characters' actions. Then you might accidentally start wondering why Bronte put that house in that strange and desolate location or why Frost had the horse stop there in the woods or why Coleridge put the ship in the doldrums. Is he trying to tell us more than what is obvious? Next, if you drop your guard, you might start noticing that the number three keeps popping up or that there seems to be smoke every time this character comes on board or that every time a certain action occurs its opposite pops up somewhere else. Now you might start bumping into motifs or even, horrors, themes! If you aren't careful you might find yourself asking some very profound questions. If that happens, feel free to pursue them, but don't let them prevent you from continuing to play with a good story. The thing is, literature is approached differently in different settings and with different readers. As home school parents, you have the burden of figuring out how to approach it at those different levels and from those different angles. I would recommend beginning with the narrative approach that some have talked about: read aloud and with your children and explain things or ask about things as they come up. Start out very concrete (characters and actions) and work your way gradually to the abstract (themes and motifs). Never let the concrete disappear though. Benefits: Now to the main question: How important is literary analysis. Here's my opinion: it is as important as the reason for which it is done. If you want to do it to show off how bright your child is, forget it. If you want them to learn how to read deeply so they can learn to gain wisdom and deeper pleasures from their reading, go for it! Literary analysis is wonderfully helpful when you want to interpret the Bible. One thing that is crucial, is to note the different kind of thinking that literature cultivates in us. When we do math, we want precise answers. When we do science, we want very specific and precise answers. But with literature it is not the same. It is not obvious that Caesar should have crossed the Rubicon, and whatever position you take, someone can justify taking a different one. The discussion that surrounds that taking of positions is what connects reading history and literature to real life. The lessons learned are eminently practical. Your children learn to see things in more nuanced ways. Literary analysis is glorified by ordering itself to the pursuit of wisdom. But the reader needs first to see the beauty of the whole before parsing it into its its parts. And if you lose the beauty of the whole, I'm not sure how profitable it is to see the parts. It would have utility, but that's about it. I hope this offers some helpful ideas.

Janice, What a great post! I wish we could sit down together for a day and discuss it point by point because you have some amazing insights that I want to absorb! Before letting you read the rest, I should interrupt and say that I have just re-read it and it's pretty boring. You got me thinking about some things so what follows wanders between talking to you and talking to myself. Please either bear with me or ignore me! I wonder if, in practice, we disagree about the quadrivium because I think I wasn't very clear. I also believe that the maths are means of training the mind and of leading the student to abstraction. What I meant was that the training in the maths is different from the training in the trivium but both have the same ultimate end (virtue and the perception of truth). And I meant that they are done parallel, not in sequence, though I can see how higher maths would require mastery of the trivium. You can begin arithmetic around the same time you begin spelling. I'm feeling fairly uncertain though. The numbers and shapes define arithmetic and geometry and mark their starting points. When you explore the relationships between and among numbers and shapes you move into music/harmonics (e.g. cords) and astronomy (shapes that move). Then you can move on to higher levels of abstraction by entering into the gaps between ideas (Socratic dialectic). Also, the maths start out a lot more precise and concrete, don't they? Seven begins as seven horses and a triangle begins (in the students mind) as a drawing on a tablet. Then seven eventually becomes the abstract number seven by comparisons of multiple groups of seven, such as seven horses, seven cows, seven styluses, seven people. That way the student comes to see "seven-ness" without any concrete object. A parallel experience happens with the shapes in geometry. In fact, it's one of the crucial moments in a person's intellectual development when he can distinguish the idea of the shape from a drawing of it. So I agree with you that the quadrivium is the means to abstract thought. Language is, by its nature, more slippery and fungible, though its foundational rules are pretty precise. In the more "Platonic" side of the classical tradition, the goal is to reach a point where you directly perceive the good and the true, which then won't be communicable to others who won't walk the same path. That's why he said, "let no man ignorant of geometry enter" the academy. That's the sense in which I mean the quadrivium runs parallel to the trivium. Each begins at the more concrete level of its own nature and rises to the more abstract. And they are different kinds of art. Studying the trivium doesn't teach you the quadrivium and vice versa. But both are giving you the tools for the higher level studies. When the quadrivium reaches its limit it makes way for dialectic/philosophy. And to do dialectics you have to master the language arts. The trivium, which Plato never heard of, is an extension of logic/dialectic and an application of it to the student who is not yet ready to climb the ladder on his own. During the Christian middle ages, the language arts became more important than the mathematical arts because they believed that truth was contained in verbal communications as much as intellectual perceptions. So they came up with the idea of the trivium, but never abandoned the quadrivium. That is why I lament the condition you describe in our colleges where the liberal arts students don't have time for the quadrivium. How odd, when you consider that Cicero coined the term "Humanities," and included in them all four of the arts of the quadrivium. Do you know why Sayers called them subjects? I think she was wrong on that, but want to find out why she said it before I say so. Finally, your metaphor of the rooms is fantastic. I like the idea of being introduced to each. I also think they need to live in one (the one with the liberal arts!). Sorry if this is reviving an antiquated thread, but I've had a hard time getting back in here due to commitments and sloth. Blessings, ajk [quote name= Janice in NJ]Hi Elizabeth, You'll have to decide for yourself. I personally would not be comfortable with 40-60 minutes a day in high school. But I do not agree with Andrew. I do not believe the quadrivium parallels the trivium. I do not believe that the quadrivium is to numbers and shape what the trivium is to language. I believe that the seven liberal arts represent a progression toward the abstract. But then again, I do not agree with my role as a "high school educator" as Sayers outlined it either.

Dulcimeramy Your child is very, very blessed to have such a purposeful, responsive, loving mother. The rest is detail!

Sorry, accidental duplicate.

Thanks "Honey" (boy does it feel weird to address you like that!), I'm going to be oboxious and suggest that it might do more than just add to your repertoire. It might well be the question that makes every other question interesting, moral, and ultimately useful. But if you just want to add it to your repertoire you can do that too.:bigear:

So much depends on their personalities, but your goal is probably for them to govern themselves. If you let them know that up front and explain that you are going to teach them how to do it over time, that might help withs some kids. Are they pleasers or independent types? If the latter, the vision of independence might be something that draws them. But people are also afraid of self-governance and responsibility. I know I am. What if I fail. So maybe once a day you celebrate a really great failure over ice cream and beer. :001_huh: well, OK, not that. But the fear of failure cripples education and we can't get good at anything without failing a lot, so it seems to me that at least one part of the puzzle you are going to solve for the rest of us and then explain to us is the joy of failure. Speaking of which, I'm off to the Y to see if I can swim faster than Saturday. We'll see what happens!

For what it is worth I have the following $10 offers and they are all worth listening to: Founding a Republic of Virtue (good and important) Aeneid (very helpful if you want to read Virgil) Augustine (great college level intro) Evolution: A history of controversy (even handed presentation) Chaucer (I absolutely loved this one. if you like words and literature this is amazing) Ethics of Aristotle (as fine an introduction as i've heard. HIghly recommended if you want to understand ethics).