My understanding of CAP's logic sequence is it goes Art of Argument, Discovery of Deduction, and the Argument Builder. Art of Argument is valuable info to know and a very fun read with lots of fake ads. I am doing it with a 5th grader and he is loving it and breezing through it quickly. With a 9th grader it could be very quick and fun and you could move on after only a month or so to Discovery of Deduction, which many people say is much more difficult and probably age appropriate. Have you see the James Madison logic course from Critical Thinking Company? This was recommended to me by people on this board, especially in the AL group. It looks extremely comprehensive. I am planning on doing this after Art of Argument and seeing how my kid does. I think 9th grade would be right in the wheelhouse of the intended ages and still very challenging, and I think it has a crime/forensic story line or approach. https://www.criticalthinking.com/james-madison-critical-thinking-course-student-book.html

If you're Catholic, which it seems like maybe you aren't, but there is Classically Catholic Memory RC History's Connecting with History TAN's Story of Civilization Rev Furlong's series (How Our Nation Began, Pioneers and Patriots, et al)

If I can piggyback on my earlier post, does anyone have reviews of Theology of the Body books or curricula to share? I see a ton of resources for all ages online, but I can't tell which ones are actually worthwhile. Sometimes these things can try to be...cool or something, and come out awful, you know?

Bah! You have a 2 and 4 year old empty the dishwasher!? I definitely have had my young kids "help" with the dishwasher, and I try to steer them toward the plastics, and try to rescue the plates and glasses... But I can't imagine them doing the whole thing.

This is probably a stupid thing to mention, but where are you roughly located? I'm sure you've looked all around at your local options, but you mentioned that live would be best. Sometimes there are places IRL that offer extension classes for kids, like through companies that serve homeschoolers but also through local universities, or through tutoring companies. That might be an avenue to revisit.

If you are serious about using W&R you might listen to episode 14 of the Classical Homeschool podcast, where they interview Paul Kortepeter, the author of the series, and specifically ask him about skipping books. I don't think they asked him about just picking a few books, though, but I think he might have talked about an accelerated schedule for older students who don't have the luxury of time to catch up. I haven't used IEW but I wonder if that might be a better fit. My understanding is that IEW has a bigger focus on training the teacher to teach writing. Perhaps IEW folks can explain if some of those books can be done as stand-alones or if they need to go in order.

Yes, I would not have done any of this voluntarily. When you have a big family, you have to get your kids doing a lot because they have hands and the messes are too much for me, so I feel grateful for that, because otherwise I would not have bothered dealing with teaching them to do these things. However, I would say there's a big difference between a 6 year old and a 10-12 year old! I can't wait until mine do a better job with the bathroom. And I'm not doing a great job teaching them because I hate doing it and just want to get it over with.

Wow, this is a big list! A lot to cover. Are you looking for a package with plans, or to assemble all your own pieces? Did you read WTM, and if so, does it mesh well with your style or does it not really feel right for you? For math, you might consider just moving slowly and deliberately through whatever resource you choose. That might help her get the most out of it and not feel so drained. This is a hard question, in part because you only want to HS for a year. A lot of good programs really build on each other as a series. For writing and language arts, you may need a real crash course in grammar depending on what she has learned, and a crash course in writing too. Writing and Rhetoric and MP's classical composition would both be bad fits for the writing. Perhaps IEW folks can say if there's a good fit within that set of programs. For grammar I might use the 8th grade Rod & Staff English (or 7th grade, if she is behind a bit in grammar). It is very solid. Other than that, good luck! Try to build in lots of field trips and days off to have a picnic at the arboretum and all that stuff, to really celebrate this time with your child. One extra day to try to cram more in your child's brain is not always as worthwhile as building that beautiful connection while you can.

I think there's some trial and error too! We are only finishing our 3rd year homeschooling. It's possible that he will dislike the textbook approach and suddenly become nostalgic for the other way. We will see!

Yes that is basically where I land on it too, especially since we already have a curriculum we like. BUT, I will say in their defense, that having it all there and in the schedule could really make for a fun year. We all *could* buy high quality stem and art and do it throughout the year, but I find that it doesn't often get done. It would perhaps make for a fun first year homeschooling.

Yes, their catalog just arrived and we are literally drooling over it right this second. As in, my children are next to me at the table at this moment calling out all the stuff they want. Lol. I love so much of it. The only thing that keeps me from going all in is that their core areas use programs I don't feel like using (Math U See, Spelling You See, Mosdos lit, etc.) but I am just loving all these science, logic, history, and art bits. Definitely hands on.

Yes, I get that feeling too. Some people on WTM told me that Rod & Staff English book 5 taught outlining really well, so that's what we did (I got the book used). It did work very well. Writing and Rhetoric also teaches and practices outlining in book 3 IIRC, though not as well as R&S. But for us, for history, I just started doing a "one sentence in your timeline book" and/or a written narration -- a 1-paragraph summary of what you read, in a dedicated little history notebook. We only do history 2x/week and this was sufficient for us. However, we are now done with history and doing Logic instead, and my son told me that history wasn't his favorite this year. After all the work I put in assembling living books?? After all the fun resources I pulled together?? And yet science, which was new this year as I finally went with a textbook and workbook instead of assembling resources myself, he actually really enjoyed. What the heck? So I think we are going to try a set program or textbook for history next year. Alas.

I just saw these. Timberdoodle has a ton of graphic novels of true war stories. There's 24-hour history (Attack on Pearl Harbor, D-Day), True Stories of WW1, True Stories of WW2, Amazing WWII Stories, The Unbreakable Zamperini, Navajo Code Talkers, Irena Book One: Wartime Ghetto, and Behind Enemy Lines. How awesome do these look? I saw a review on someone's blog that said her kids read and re-read these and their retention was higher than history retention often is. I'd like to do this when it comes around again in our cycle. You might be able to suggest some to your local library if you don't want to buy them all; sometimes libraries take people's suggestions for good resources to purchase. https://timberdoodle.com/collections/history/Historic-Graphic-Novels

This makes sense! I think you are all very right about the pronunciation. I always thought it was much ado about nothing. I like the idea of supplementing and I need to check these ideas out. Hearing it spoken definitely gives you a feel for the language that isn't just "decoding." I'm just musing out loud now, but... any time you are talking about learning Latin, I think there is an unspoken question as to "Why??" in the background, and depending on how a family or teacher answers that, it may really impact how you teach. If it's for vocab/word roots and test prep, or as an extended brain-training/logical exercise, or because it's what classical educators did for 1800 years, or to make learning other romance languages easier, or to be able to speak and read fluently, or because you just love it.

But here's another issue -- which pronunciation? The perennial question. Modern Greek, spoken, is nothing at all like koine Greek. Classical Latin is an 1800s model based on what they could glean from ancient poetry. If you want to go far in Latin in college it's the best, the gold standard. But Ecclesiastical Latin is the only one being really used today, and it's still highly in use in the Church if you're Catholic, and if you're into the Latin mass or even the Novus Ordo in Latin you might be using it daily or weekly. I wonder what all the conversational options are in.

Maybe they all do? Maybe I just don't know how to use these things?

This is a very cool list. I am especially intrigued by the picture book translations. So far, we have just been using Song School Latin, Latin for Children, Greek Code Cracker, and Hey Andrew Teach Me Some Greek! I do like having a grammatical pedagogy, but I haven't had a lot of experience with "non traditional" options. (Translation: this sounds like a lot more work for me, lol.) I heard a woman on one of the Pam Barnhill podcasts saying she likes Minimus and other little Latin readers, so I bought it, and I thought it was just so difficult to try to glean meaning from pictures and context. I have studied several languages and definitely have a head for language learning, but I hated it when I didn't have any idea what they were saying and was just supposed to be absorbing it through osmosis. And my child would say "what does this word mean?" And I would have to say I didn't know, and the child is like, "well what the heck am I supposed to do with it if you don't know either?" So I get doing exercises, learning vocab and grammar etc. I get learning prayers and hymns and listening to them. I don't really get reading it or listening to it when it is full of words they don't know. If there's not a direct translation, how are they getting anything? My kids used to watch Madeleine in Spanish and would confidently tell me that "yolak" was hello (what they heard instead of Hola) so I am not sure it wouldn't be counterproductive.. What is the theory, I guess, or is it kind of a "kitchen sink" approach? How much time do you give to this, and do you prioritize it over everything else?

I just want to say that this is very normal for at least the first couple years. We have now homeschooled three years and it's only starting to feel like I'm moving into a groove where it works for us, with lots of bad choices and bad fits along the way. Every year, it takes a few weeks to get into stride as well. It sounds like you're doing a great job now keeping them busy on the other two days. We only school 4 days per week with a co op day. I think that's great. It is fun to choose resources for each kid, but it can help if you can find grade-level plans that fit your family pretty well (not perfectly) that you can tweak, vs reinventing the wheel. That might take some of the burden off vs having to find and supervise an online option with young kids. Those options work best for older kids, taking only one or two specific classes IMO. Younger kids don't need a ton of work anyway, again just my two cents. I don't have much to offer except the encouragement that we have all been there. It's much more fun to plan than to execute!! Pam Barnhill always says that too. As long as you're moving the ball along slowly but surely, and providing lots of screen free time for them to be bored and find their own fun (inventing, building, playing, pretending, exploring), they will be learning so much and bonding together as a family and it will be worth it. And don't forget to add in fun - Sarah Mackenzie has a list of just-for-fun things you can do to celebrate homeschooling and let go of box-checking-worry for the day. There are so many benefits of homeschooling they're getting even in seasons where you're not getting to absolutely everything.

Yeah, it makes sense to first do a placement test and get one workbook. In my case, I was able to catch a sale, so I got the whole 1-7 curriculum for under $100. I was looking to make a curriculum switch after Beast Academy was a bad fit for my oldest child (he is good in math but hates puzzles) and Singapore was too teacher-heavy for my youngers. The pdf version includes the main worktexts, answers, tests, extra drill, etc. I figured that even if I only used it as a supplement here and there, with 6 kids, it was bound to be a good investment for at least some math topics. Things I like and don't -- - there are lots of problems, and she says most kids should do about half. Don't try to assign all of them unless needed - I don't think it's too busy, but getting it in color helps a lot. If it doesn't look like there's much room to calculate, that's often because she does a lot of mental math - She explains things many different ways. This is good if your child struggles with one way of teaching, but it can also confuse the child. I usually just figure that out and skip that -- like one of mine hates number lines, so I skip those. - I like the mastery approach, but she does about 4 subjects per book, so it's more spiral and reviewing than you'd think. If you get sick of a longer unit, she recommends just switching back and forth; most of them (like geometry, time and money, etc.) can be mixed. That's it really. I feel like it's really solid. I think it might be harder to come to it later without having built a foundation, since she will expect them to do some mental math tricks, etc. But probably a placement test can help with that.

Look, I read all the stuff you are doing on your "off" days and who they have caring for them (i.e., their actual other parent - dad himself!!) and I would say, oh my goodness you are doing just fine. What you do on your off day is often more than I do on some of my "on" days with all the littles I'm chasing after. Obviously you know there's some remediation needed and a new curriculum - great. But I would not even consider those days "off" days when they are with dad!! You have young kids and they are using that time doing read alouds, history, science, living math, music lessons, and outdoor play. That sounds beautiful. We school 4 days/week but we can't always fit in phonics or math every single day. We chip away at it, and my kids are all doing great. Math mammoth is good for being written to the student and that anyone can help with it without needing a teacher guide. To me, it's all about screen time -- if the hours they aren't getting school are screen-free or mostly so, then they get spent inventing codes, pretend playing store, trying to cook, getting exercise, taking things apart and building them up, noticing the birds, picking up or practicing instruments, etc etc. And those are all awesome too, as long as you are regularly moving the ball forward with math and reading. After that, as they age, it really will get easier to give them something more academic to do, like watch a latin or spanish DVD with dad and do a worksheet. I admire the people here on WTM but they can make you crazy with all the "we even do math on the weekends and all summer" stuff. I think they usually mean that HSing is a lifestyle and you find opportunities to learn everywhere.

All of these replies have been beyond helpful. I have such a great list of resources and I'm going to dive deep into some samples and see what will work for us. I'm so impressed with what you all are able to do in the week! I keep reminding myself that there are seasons. My oldest is 10 and the only one working independently, but that will change. I am really liking what I see of this. But I'm a little confused about how to use it. It seems like the chapters or units are too long for a single day so they'd need to be broken up, perhaps in several places, but then at the end there are several "Part 1 exercises - part 1 tests" followed immediately by "Part 2 exercises - part 2 tests" then part 3 etc. How do you assign that? Doing things together at a morning time or circle time is a complete no-go at the moment. (I have a maximum of 1-1.5 hours to get solid one-on-one or older-group-of-kids time while the baby naps, which I use to do phonics and math and all that core stuff (and just barely make it), and when the baby and toddler and preschooler are all awake it's almost impossible to snatch more than a few minutes here and there. So I'm going to need to just assign it independently for a 3rd and 6th grader if we use it.) All these suggestions look great! The friendly defender cards are something I'd like to look at too. And I've been meaning to do some TOB especially as the kids get older. It never occurred to me that SOC might be a good fit, but I was specifically looking for a new history program this year, and was looking for something like their Volume 3. This is a great idea. I'm going to have to look at all these. There are so many good programs. My DH said he will read and discuss some of the Bible each night with the kids and he has done that for the past week and it's been really beautiful. He doesn't think catechism is as important at young ages because all the things that really matter and are difficult about our faith can't really get discussed properly until the child is a teenager and starting to really struggle with these more serious matters. He thinks I should focus on Bible and the hands-on stuff CHC does (which is more virtue oriented) and saints stories, and leave the catechism/apologetics for when you can do a deeper dive rather than what an 8 year old can really get from it. Given that he's my DH, his opinion carries the most weight with me, but that's where something like Catechism of the Seven Sacraments might really be a good fit since the Lego piece could help keep the kids interested without it being a dry type thing that I need to force. Thanks to all, really appreciating everyone's insights and ideas.

I'm sorry if I was contentious! I really don't mean to be, lol, I think I let myself get too amped up. When I said "culturally" homogeneous, I said that on purpose because it's not the same as "ethnically" and I think many places manage to have lots of ethnic diversity and yet come together as a community and culture just fine. And in some places (like the US) you can have people of the same ethnicity strongly divided culturally. I see that New Zealand is very diverse. I didn't mean to imply that it wasn't. I don't honestly know why we have such trouble in the US with trust and places like NZ with complicated histories manage better. I wish it were as easy as taking the best from other places, since it sounds like it works very well. That is a blessing!

It's definitely complicated, and I don't have experience with each place. But I can ask: is there regular rioting in those places when one side doesn't win an election? Are there groups in these places that call for the police to be defunded and believe the system is in all ways stacked against them? If someone in power talks about "our culture" or "our society" is there a sense among many that that phrase is embarrassing or offensive? So yes, I don't know why this is more of a factor in some places and not in others. Again, I think this sort of thing is at least partly about tribalism. When *your* people are in power and doing what you think they should, it is easy to feel good about Big Government. I'm not saying anything about you personally (I don't know you, I'm sure you're a lovely person), but I DO think a lot of this is tribalism. When the people in power are "like you" you will like that, and when they aren't, you won't. If suddenly the culture of the people at the top in Canada looked more like, say, Mississippi or Alaska, you would be less likely to trust them, and when they made some decisions you didn't like, you would start changing how you felt about the power of government. It's akin to "I like when people who are like me make decisions for everyone." In the US, there's a lot of distrust because we don't think the people who disagree with us have our best interests in mind. And there's lots of evidence of that now in Canada, with the supreme court and the laws that are basically criminalizing lots of religious beliefs and telling people they don't have freedom of speech for certain subjects, and just in the last few years the "trust in institutions" score in Canada, once very high, is dropping quickly. These actions by the Canadian government are incredibly concerning -- unless you happen to hold the exact same beliefs as the government does. But again, that's no different from saying "Speech controls and criminalizing beliefs are terrible if they were directed at me, because I believe correct things, but great when directed at others I think are wrong." Sorry, this is getting off track. But it is at the heart of regulations - who decides? And what if they aren't like you at all?

Yes, but I guess all of this is the point: we don't really understand what works. We don't understand what the trade-offs are when we try to improve an area and actually do a worse job. We don't know why exactly poverty and race and family do or do not have an impact. When a kid is doing well, we don't know who should get credit and what should be replicated and how, and when doing badly, we don't know how to fix it. There are pilot programs with excellent results, that disappear when the program is scaled up. To bring it back to homeschool regulations -- it's easy to be the Decider, and say, well I can tell you the difference between a competent unschooler and a lazy non-schooler. And as long as I am in charge -- and the people who are like me that are "good people," that is, agree with me and think what I think -- are the ones in charge, it all works. This is what I mean by trust and homogeneity. When the regulator doesn't like you, doesn't like what you believe, and wants desperately to circumvent you and teach your kid what they want, even when their method is also turning out unprepared and emotionally wounded kids, then these regulations really matter, and their subjectivity and enforcement matter, and who gets to be the Decider matters. That's what low trust looks like.

See, this sort of thing really gets me. I'm going to try hard not to get on my soapbox too much, but every time someone talks about "In country x, this is much better than in the US" I get all crazy pants and my head explodes, because it's almost always true that country x has 1) a much smaller population, 2) a more culturally homogeneous population, 3) high levels of interpersonal and institutional trust (in the government ministers, in the police, etc.), 4) fewer immigrants and refugees and language learners, 5) a much simpler history not involving continuing conflicts between its groups (I suspect this also helps with trust, as certain groups did not have 100-400 years of discrimination, forced relocation, etc.), 6) a lower poverty rate and more homogeneous standard of living among its groups. My metro area of Houston from Sugarland to the Woodlands has over 7 million people, with 1.8 million kids, while as you noted, NZ has 1.1 million kids and less than 5 million people. NZ has very high levels of trust. The key problem is that statements like "the American educational system" are not really helpful, because it differs so much across states, districts, groups, etc. In this huge and diverse place, which is all locally governed (which is what it is - other countries that are centrally governed may think that's crazy, but that is our system. I don't know who I'd want at headquarters with clipboards deciding things for everyone -- the Californians? The Texans? New Yorkers? Alabama folks?) The system is not always broken -- look at Utah. It has a fairly homogeneous population of perhaps more stable than average families due to the LDS influence, and they get fairly good value with good results for spending something like the lowest amount per pupil among the states (4 or 5k?). If you look at stable families, if you take away the poor kids and kids in the middle of the aftermath of recent divorce, if you take away the new English learners and new immigrants, American kids do pretty well. If you look at the school systems in places with higher earners with higher educations and more stable marriages, almost all the kids do very well, including minority kids. So what's going on is not that the "American school system" is always terrible. It's that there's a TON going on that impedes learning in all these incredibly different places and cultures and families that are struggling. Our middle class and affluent kids are doing well. But you can't regulate that people not be in poor and unstable conditions, and you can't even hike up spending and get magically better results. My husband volunteered for a time in NYC schools (per pupil spending: 28k) in places called things like "Soaring Eagle Academy of Excellence" etc. and the kids had no paper, pencils, or books, and the teacher had totally given up trying to teach, and there was violence everywhere. What does Sweden or Japan or New Zealand do differently that can help THESE kids? How do you import a country's culture in only ONE way, without sharing all the history and all the circumstances that continually create and sustain that culture?