Please share your thoughts about copywork and cursive to help me plan

[Tiramisu]

So, I know dd has a problem writing. We haven't heard back from the OT yet, so I don't know any specifics, but I know it's there. She's going into fourth grade so there's time to remediate and lots of time for her to "reach her potential" in writing. I will have her practice typing at least three days a week with Typing Instructor for Kids. 

 

How often should I have her practice cursive? I want her to be able to read it even if she won't ever write it much. Should we not work on cursive at all now if there are still issues with printing comfortably and fluently?

 

Copywork (print not cursive) has always been something I've done with dd. Dh offered to help remediate her handwriting (print) this year. Would it be too much to have her do copywork, too? Last year she only had to do a line of cursive a day, in addition to doing any copywork, and it didn't seem too much. But understanding more about her handwriting problems makes me wonder if I'm doing the right thing with including copywork, and makes me want to be careful in not overloading her with writing in general.

 

So, should I include cursive practice and/or print copywork in addition to the handwriting work she will do with dh? Any ideas how often to implement each without overwhelming dd?

 

She will also do a light-weight writing program which is broken down into little bites.

[PeterPan]

Is her motor planning for the writing (print or cursive) automatic?  And are there retained reflexes?  

 

Personally, if the motor planning is not automatic, I would focus on that level using a program like ezWriteOnline > Home  and put your energy into your OT.  Supposedly the order is reflexes integrate, then gross, motor, then fine motor.  

[Julie of KY]

I don't know how much copywork you should do, but there is a lot of value of learning grammar naturally through copywork - especially if you discuss one grammatical part of each copywork (not necessarily the whole thing)

 

[Crimson Wife]

FWIW, my DS has awful printing but okay cursive. We were with a charter school when he learned cursive and our assigned teacher said that it's not super-uncommon for kids to do better with cursive than print.

[Tiramisu]

Is her motor planning for the writing (print or cursive) automatic?  And are there retained reflexes?  

 

Personally, if the motor planning is not automatic, I would focus on that level using a program like ezWriteOnline > Home  and put your energy into your OT.  Supposedly the order is reflexes integrate, then gross, motor, then fine motor.  

 

The OT specifically said to dh that her writing is not automatic. However, there does not seem to be any other specific motor issues, gross or fine, besides visual-motor and she has confirmed visual problems. We'll see what the report says, but that's the impression we got after the eval. That concurs with what the retired OT said about her motor skills. In fact, for one of the fine motor tests, the OT said she never saw a student perform it so quickly.

 

No word on retained reflexes.

 

I'll check out the ezWrite. 

[Heathermomster]

For motor planning, I the HWT IPad app and combined that with large arm motion letters and the dry erase board. LOE sells excellent handwriting materials.

 

We then moved to daily copy work using sheets I made using Start Write sw. I have slowly reduced the font over the last few months. We started with short phrases and have built up from there. DD also uses the LOE dry erase board for spelling and dictation. I scribe for everything else. DD is slowly taking command, and we start NAC soon.

[Tiramisu]

For motor planning, I the HWT IPad app and combined that with large arm motion letters and the dry erase board. LOE sells excellent handwriting materials.

 

We then moved to daily copy work using sheets I made using Start Write sw. I have slowly reduced the font over the last few months. We started with short phrases and have built up from there. DD also uses the LOE dry erase board for spelling and dictation. I scribe for everything else. DD is slowly taking command, and we start NAC soon.

 

I have been thinking of the app. Dh has an Ipad and dd has a kindle fire, so between them we can come up with something. Kindle has an app that uses HWT letter formation. I talked to dh about the big arm movements after Geodob mentioned it, too. He likes that idea.  

 

EZwrite, that OhE linked is very pricey, but their alphabet race idea is interesting.

 

That's nice that Start WRite lets you change the font size.

 

What's NAC?

[Tiramisu]

Putting all these ideas together...

 

Copywork daily is possible if we start out the year with shorter stuff. We can get grammar and spelling and good stuff with it besides the writing part.

Cursive is worth keeping...realistically daily will be necessary.

Big arm letter formation and app use for motor planning.

[Crimson Wife]

Memoria Press offers New American Cursive, which is what I use with my kids. It's ugly but easy to learn (unlike Peterson Directed Handwriting, which is pretty but caused meltdowns in my oldest).

[Momofeat]

FWIW, my DS has awful printing but okay cursive. We were with a charter school when he learned cursive and our assigned teacher said that it's not super-uncommon for kids to do better with cursive than print.

 

As a tutor for children who have dyslexia and dysgraphia, I will take this a step further.

 

When I begin working with a student who has poor handwriting, I teach them cursive. (They always know how to print, but very few of them have learned cursive. It is no longer taught in the local public schools.)

 

Nine times out of ten I see a tremendous improvement in handwriting within a month. The handwriting may not ever be beautiful, but it does become legible.

[Heathermomster]

I have been thinking of the app. Dh has an Ipad and dd has a kindle fire, so between them we can come up with something. Kindle has an app that uses HWT letter formation. I talked to dh about the big arm movements after Geodob mentioned it, too. He likes that idea.

 

EZwrite, that OhE linked is very pricey, but their alphabet race idea is interesting.

 

That's nice that Start WRite lets you change the font size.

 

What's NAC?

NAC is New American cursive, and the same font that Crimson mentioned. Start Write sw has the NAC font. A link follows:

http://www.memoriapress.com/curriculum/penmanship/new-american-cursive

[kbutton]

As a tutor for children who have dyslexia and dysgraphia, I will take this a step further.

 

When I begin working with a student who has poor handwriting, I teach them cursive. (They always know how to print, but very few of them have learned cursive. It is no longer taught in the local public schools.)

 

Nine times out of ten I see a tremendous improvement in handwriting within a month. The handwriting may not ever be beautiful, but it does become legible.

 

My son's cursive was better than print, but the cursive he learned was too loopy. He had learned ball and stick print (I think ball and stick is educational abuse, lol!). He learned both kinds of writing in school before he came home. He eventually started getting automatic with print when he found smooth ways to write it, and that happened in 4th/5th grade. He also had VT around that time that helped with all kinds of motor stuff. I think if you are willing to readjust as necessary, you will be fine whatever you decide to do. It doesn't take as much cursive writing to learn to read it as it does to write it--if you decide to drop cursive at some point, then be sure to give her some handwritten notes to read for practice. He will start typing more work this year--even though he has a dysgraphia diagnosis, I am glad we didn't push typing too early. I think he would've stopped writing altogether when he was on the verge of getting decent.

 

My younger son learned NAC after a brief intro to print. He's still not automatic going into 2nd, but his writing is very nice compared to many kids his age. We took things more slowly that typical and wrote a lot of letter combinations after learning individual letters. We made tons of homemade worksheets to supplement the first NAC book. I still customize most of his writing. He writes every day. He struggles with automaticity of any movement, so we'll see how it pans out at he ages. I hope to start him with typing practice this year, but I don't intend to have him type work until I have some idea how the handwriting will pan out.

[Tiramisu]

NAC is New American cursive, and the same font that Crimson mentioned. Start Write sw has the NAC font. A link follows:

http://www.memoriapress.com/curriculum/penmanship/new-american-cursive

 

I was thinking it could be N-Acetyl Choline, and wondering how that fit in. LOL. 

[Tiramisu]

My son's cursive was better than print, but the cursive he learned was too loopy. He had learned ball and stick print (I think ball and stick is educational abuse, lol!). He learned both kinds of writing in school before he came home. He eventually started getting automatic with print when he found smooth ways to write it, and that happened in 4th/5th grade. He also had VT around that time that helped with all kinds of motor stuff. I think if you are willing to readjust as necessary, you will be fine whatever you decide to do. It doesn't take as much cursive writing to learn to read it as it does to write it--if you decide to drop cursive at some point, then be sure to give her some handwritten notes to read for practice. He will start typing more work this year--even though he has a dysgraphia diagnosis, I am glad we didn't push typing too early. I think he would've stopped writing altogether when he was on the verge of getting decent.

 

My younger son learned NAC after a brief intro to print. He's still not automatic going into 2nd, but his writing is very nice compared to many kids his age. We took things more slowly that typical and wrote a lot of letter combinations after learning individual letters. We made tons of homemade worksheets to supplement the first NAC book. I still customize most of his writing. He writes every day. He struggles with automaticity of any movement, so we'll see how it pans out at he ages. I hope to start him with typing practice this year, but I don't intend to have him type work until I have some idea how the handwriting will pan out.

 

Can you make NAC sheets with Startwrite. 

 

I successfully downloaded the vintage book Dictation Day by Day onto my Kindle. I wonder if I could make copywork sheets with that with Startwrite.

[Heathermomster]

Can you make NAC sheets with Startwrite.

 

I successfully downloaded the vintage book Dictation Day by Day onto my Kindle. I wonder if I could make copywork sheets with that with Startwrite.

Yes...

[PeterPan]

I paid NOTHING for EZ Write.  You can figure everything out online just looking at the youtube videos.  Seriously.  I made the posters myself.  It's NOT rocket science.  My dd's motor planning only just because automatic after all these years, so I was determined to do a much better job with ds.  I found EZ Write through the OT.  Really, everything you need is online for free.  Main thing is to spend time getting the component strokes automatic, then go through each letter, asking which strokes you would use to make it.  It's literally that simple.  LOVE it.  Then do it lots of ways.  She's still at a good age to enjoy a dry erase board or chalk board.  Go multi-sensory, big, on big paper, with window markers, etc.! 

 

What I liked about it was that it gave us a common conversation, a way to talk through the formations.  That way instead of just memorizing the whole look, he can think it through as a series of strokes.

[kbutton]

Main thing is to spend time getting the component strokes automatic, then go through each letter, asking which strokes you would use to make it.  It's literally that simple.  LOVE it.  Then do it lots of ways.  She's still at a good age to enjoy a dry erase board or chalk board.  Go multi-sensory, big, on big paper, with window markers, etc.! 

 

I haven't seen the program, but I had to break NAC down into tiny bits like that. I didn't talk about it quite that way, but I broke it down to that degree for my little guy. If that's is how the program works, I would go with that (or use it as an example of how to break down another handwriting program you like). 

[Heathermomster]

We haven't even discussed pencil grips.  With DD, I purchased a box of golf pencils, and she used those for awhile.  I then picked up a package of Twist N Write Penagains.  They were too large for my DD's hands but suited DS very well.  Overall, my DD is not a fan of pencil grips, but OT exercises helped a bunch.

[Momofeat]

My son's cursive was better than print, but the cursive he learned was too loopy.

 

Oh, I hadn't thought about the "loopiness" issues. I like D'Nealian cursive because there are no loops, and the lowercase letters all begin with upstrokes, which means they all begin in the same place. (I don't really understand why this helps kids so much, but it's like once they get started, they can remember where to go.)

 

I don't use a specific program. Instead, I teach the letters that begin with similar strokes together.

[Tiramisu]

D'Nealian cursive and NAC looked rather similar to me.

[Heathermomster]

I am glad that kbutton mentioned cursive that was too loopy for her DS.  My DD had the same problem with loops and weird flourishes. (I don't now the language of fonts. ) I am a fan of NAC, print italics, and cursive italics because of their simplicity.  

 

Teaching DD the letters in order of formation helped eliminate b&d confusion.  (Kel, I know that your DD doesn't struggle that way,)  In the classroom, DS was taught a-z and that was a major mistake. 

[Tiramisu]

I'm wondering if I decide to work on handwriting intensively, including cursive, would it be better to put off the typing for now?

 

My 15 yo didn't learn typing until fifth grade, I think, and once she did, she wanted to type everything but math. 

[Crimson Wife]

NAC is definitely a very non-loopy font, and that's why it looks ugly to me compared with Peterson. But one of my oldest's complaints about Peterson was that it was "too loopy" (also "too slanted") and she mastered NAC in 3 weeks flat after we'd spent a year trying unsuccessfully with Peterson.

[Heathermomster]

I'm wondering if I decide to work on handwriting intensively, including cursive, would it be better to put off the typing for now?

 

My 15 yo didn't learn typing until fifth grade, I think, and once she did, she wanted to type everything but math.

DS learned in to type 5th grade. I know other moms have taught their children sooner. Maybe try, but don't push or go to war over it.

 

Just me..and I know other people approach these things differently. With DD, I spent maybe 15 minutes on handwriting. We ramped up slowly. Your DD's issues are somewhat different with the VT. If her vision is a problem, you may even want to set the pencil aside until it is cleared up. Stick with the big arm movements and other big motor activities.

[kbutton]

I'm wondering if I decide to work on handwriting intensively, including cursive, would it be better to put off the typing for now?

 

My 15 yo didn't learn typing until fifth grade, I think, and once she did, she wanted to type everything but math. 

 

I wouldn't push typing until you are ready to live with the consequences. It will take time to be competent with typing, mostly likely, but it depends on the child.

 

I am really glad my older son is typing reasonably efficiently now (going into 6th), but if we had done it earlier, I think we'd be at an impasse about writing by hand, and I don't believe his dysgraphia is severe enough to warrant never writing by hand. I want him to be able to take handwritten notes if at all possible from lectures. His dysgraphia is more about getting all the pieces together (thinking, writing, spelling, etc.), not the handwriting alone. He's more of late-bloomer with handwriting. If I can make any of the pieces work better (all of which are needed in other areas), then I think he'll eventually lose the dysgraphia label.

[Tiramisu]

DS learned in to type 5th grade.   I know other moms have taught their children sooner.  Maybe try, but don't push or go to war over it.

 

Just me..and I know other people approach these things differently.  With DD, I spent maybe 15 minutes on handwriting.  We ramped up slowly.  Your DD's issues are somewhat different with the VT.  If her vision is a problem, you may even want to set the pencil aside until it is cleared up.  Stick with the big arm movements and other activities big motor activities. 

 

The first OT we consulted recommended five minutes of handwriting per day. Maybe we do need to ramp up.

 

I think I'm going to talk to dh about implementing the big movement writing 8's with our home VT session. VT homework takes 15 minutes so it shouldn't be too much. 

 

Also, I think the Ipad or Kindle app shouldn't be too taxing to use.

 

Dd bristles at everything I ask her to do, but she's very happy to do what dh asks. So it all has to go through him. 

 

She did two weeks of gymnastics camp this summer. I want to sign her up for a weekly class but she says if she goes to a class one day, the next day she'll feel sad...as though it's better not to do it. I'll get her into a class anyway but it's difficult dealing with the negative thinking. I also looked into swimming lessons to learn proper strokes. She seemed interested as first and then changed her mind. She has a thing going on lately about anticipating her own negative feelings about things.

[Tiramisu]

Dh has his own plan, so he says he's not going to do the eights. I guess we had some miscommunication in the whole handwriting discussion because he's not a native English speaker and I am, and we were speaking in English. For him, handwriting is cursive. So he's doing cursive. His way. 

 

I'll have her do the app for manuscript. And do copywork/dictation, I think. I just hope I don't overload her with the other writing I had planned.

[PeterPan]

Can you get her into a couple gymnastics classes, so she's in more days a week?  Our Y has regular classes but also cheer, tumbling, etc.  You can mix it up and be there several nights a week, each time a different class.  :)

 

On the swimming, she might have some anxiety due to insecurity about whether she can do it or maybe having done it and hitting a wall.  The right teacher can make a big difference.  Small class size or even private if you can swing it.  Given what she has going on, you might even ask at your Y about an adaptive aquatics program.  It's meant for SN, and they can accommodate anything from ADHD to cp to whatever.  It's taught by an OT, and typically an adult gets in the pool with them as well.  Might be a totally different, more positive dynamic for her.  Your dh could go with her maybe...

[kbutton]

She has a thing going on lately about anticipating her own negative feelings about things.

 

I hear the rumblings of that mixed blessing called burgeoning self-awareness in this area. Congratulations and good luck.  :lol: Try to remember that it's the moment you've been waiting for, lol!

 

Seriously, that is probably a good thing as touchy as it might be. You might be able to find or tease out patterns with your DH's help (and maybe hers), then get her buy-in about new things by figuring out how to set her up for success.

[prairiewindmomma]

We have dysgraphia and visual processing labels here.

 

We do no copywork (with that child; I do with my others).

We do 1 5-10 min HWT session (in cursive) or I'll let him spend time on a few apps.

We're using IEW A with my 9 yo, and I'm scribing for writing.

We're doing FLL, completely orally or with me scribing.

We spend a ton of time on OT work.

 

We did intensive handwriting stuff for years, literally, under some bad advice from a previous OT.  

I've spent my summer reading books on dyspraxia (also a label here). After looking at some of the longitudinal studies and samples, I'm convinced that doing OT work is best way to improve handwriting.  

 

We are spending 50% of our school time this year on OT because ds doesn't have the foundational physical skills to progress academically. I'm pouring audiobooks into him, doing a lot of manipulatives work in math, and going through a few subjects lightly....but I think we're just at the point of having to break apart the dang box instead of trying to fit ds into it.

[Tiramisu]

Can you get her into a couple gymnastics classes, so she's in more days a week?  Our Y has regular classes but also cheer, tumbling, etc.  You can mix it up and be there several nights a week, each time a different class.   :)

 

On the swimming, she might have some anxiety due to insecurity about whether she can do it or maybe having done it and hitting a wall.  The right teacher can make a big difference.  Small class size or even private if you can swing it.  Given what she has going on, you might even ask at your Y about an adaptive aquatics program.  It's meant for SN, and they can accommodate anything from ADHD to cp to whatever.  It's taught by an OT, and typically an adult gets in the pool with them as well.  Might be a totally different, more positive dynamic for her.  Your dh could go with her maybe...

 

I thought of the two day a week possibility, hoping my mom might volunteer to pay for one of them; she likes to do things like that for dd. It can be hard to coordinate schedules with kung fu three times a week and the other DCs' activities, but it would be nice if it could work out. It really is something she enjoys.

[Tiramisu]

So I tried to do some eights with dd. She had a harder time just making the eights than I expected, without even trying the letters. She did a few eights and said, "I just figured out why the infinity symbol is an eight." And then she walked away. I guess there's hope.

[kbutton]

So I tried to do some eights with dd. She had a harder time just making the eights than I expected, without even trying the letters. She did a few eights and said, "I just figured out why the infinity symbol is an eight." And then she walked away. I guess there's hope.

 

My younger son had to close his eyes to make eights for a while. If he did it with them open, he made kidney beans instead.

[PeterPan]

It's probably not affordable, but our OT has this wooden 8 with tracks and has ds roll marbles on it.  Once he could do one and keep it on, they switched to two.  On one side the circles link to make an 8, and on the other side they're separate.  Then you try to get them rolling opposite ways, etc.  Wild.