Polyglot, not Bilingual

[regentrude]

 Regentrude brought up poetry for example.  I can appreciate some Japanese poetry.  I can even distinguish some of the plays on words that are inherent in it.  But Japanese poetry has a very specific form (much more complicated than simply counting out syllables).  I used to listen to people have poetry contests (a pasttime which in and of itself is very culturally different than what you would find in the US!) where people would sit and make up poems on the fly and try and best each other.  I never ever took a turn because I didn't have the skill to do what they did.  But then, I doubt I could just make up some iambic pentameter on the fly too (though I could attempt some blank verse) in English.  Does that make me symmetric then?  Because I assume some Japanese might have sat and just listened too since I doubt that all Japanese have a natural genetic ability to make poetry :) Or does that make me unsymmetrical since I recognize that it had a linguistic subtlety that I lack?  Do do I care?

 

I brought up poetry is because I used to write poetry in German. And, as I have been told, it was quite good. Writing poetry is the way I express my innermost thoughts and emotions; it is how I process feelings, upheaval, crises. It is the tool I employ to heal my soul. I have struggled for over a decade living in an English speaking country to find my "voice".

Not everybody writes poetry in even one language, and not everybody cares about poetry. To me, however, the inability to write poetry in English was a very painful reminder that I am still an immigrant in a foreign culture - despite having the level of language mastery to teach at a university, home educate my children, manage my daily life, or debate one the WTM forums. For me, this inability to express myself through poetic language, my chosen medium of artistic expression, is an issue. And it tells me that my language skills are still asymmetric. Btw, I also do not count in English if I spontaneously count mentally, and mostly do not dream in English either.

[regentrude]

Do you think it's possible to become truly bilingual or multilingual without immersion? I'm curious, because I read some of your posts about foreign languages in school where you grew up before. I know becoming fluent without immersion is not possible for me, and textbook learning simply tends to be an epic failure. We are currently trying to learn Latin this way. It is NOT working. The sad thing about Latin is that immersion is just not possible, of course. Perhaps you have tips on how to make textbook learning more successful for people like me (in other words, textbook-resistant people)?

 

No, I do not believe one can become bilingual without immersion - because of the cultural literacy that is required for appropriate language use.

I have studied two languages in school, English and Russian. Counting classes at the university, each for ten years, taught by teachers who were speaking the language. I achieved fluency: the ability to carry a conversation, to read for information and for pleasure,  to work and function in an English speaking country (and Russian was similar; I was able to live and work there for a summer).

I did not achieve bilingualism through school. During my first years in the US, the learning curve was steep. Not just new vocabulary, but more importantly the cultural connotations. At the beginning, I had difficulties following a conversation among a group of American friends, because even though I knew the words, I often did not understand the cultural context. You don't pick up when a person uses sarcasm, do not know which words are profanity (because their literal translation in your native language is not considered offensive in your home country). You don't understand references to popular culture (such as TV shows) or shared cultural experiences (such as prom).

 

As for foreign language study: I found this to be the hardest subject to homeschool. We managed to get a good start in French through textbooks, work books, CDs, the addition of a native speaker as a weekly tutor- and then we hit plateau. What helped was for DD to take French courses at the university, taught by a teacher who is fluent in French (sadly not a native speaker). She took five semesters of French, can write well, can read and analyze original literature. She can speak, but I do not know how well she could understand rapid conversations among natives. She may be reasonably fluent, but by no means bilingual in french.

With DS, we failed at Italian. Textbook study with no fluent teacher did not work.

I know some very talented and motivated students (8FillTheHeart's DD comes to mind) manage to develop fluency even without a teacher; I believe these are very rare.

[Jean in Newcastle]

That's interesting. It must have been weird to be able to understand the words but not the full meaning of a conversation due to cultural differences. That's yet another argument in favor of immersion in the relevant country itself: you become somewhat bicultural while you are acquiring the language. This would not be possible with textbook learning. 

 

I am not planning to teach* any languages beside Latin, and in the case of Latin it's definitely more joint messing around with a book than me teaching anything. It's also impossible to hire a native-speaking tutor in this case. I guess a Catholic priest may be the closest one could get? (Or a Romanian who studied Latin extensively, perhaps - that would certainly be possible to find here. At least, Romanians have told me that Romanian is the most closely-related living language.) I have the feeling that people who teach Latin professionally are likely to take an approach I don't do well with, that is a very textbook-centered approach. I'd like to get as close to immersion as possible. 

 

People who manage to learn languages to the point of fluency without immersion or native teachers are amazing.

 

*Yes, my kids speak multiple languages. No, I did not teach any languages. I just speak them, and the kids acquired them, using the same process any very young child uses to acquire language. Just now, we went to a shop and the shop assistant asked if the kids go to a local school. When I said no, she asked how on Earth they learned to speak the local language. Well, duh, we live in this country. Acquiring the language is pretty much inevitable.

It's inevitable if you are in a country without pockets of ex-pats to surround yourself with.  Of the American kids I knew later in boarding school, 80% did not speak Japanese very well because other than shopping, they were in little American bubbles.  Fortunately I lived up north in the boonies where there were very few other Americans or Europeans.  I never formally learned Japanese in the sense of learning grammar etc.  I learned from the neighborhood and t.v. and then later in elementary school we had a Japanese teacher teach us reading and writing from actual Japanese textbooks.  Learning from t.v. led to some interesting exchanges based on my favorite shows.  I knew a lot of archaic (medieval) Japanese from watching Samurai shows and also a lot of gangster slang from watching cop shows.  It led to laughs if I tried using these words in normal everyday conversation!  

 

Ds has learned Latin to the level of Latin III and he's a competent translator but really nothing more.  I think that has value but perhaps a different kind of value than that of immersing yourself in another language and culture.  

 

I've had people tell me that I change when speaking Japanese vs. English.  My facial expressions are different and so is my body language.  I guess it is my own little version of Dr. Jekyll and Mr. Hyde!  

 

P.S. - Regentrude, I don't often dream in Japanese, but when I am, I'm even more fluent than when I'm awake!  (I think I go back to what I knew when I really was immersed in the language.)  My dad really flummoxed the nurses when he had an operation and was mumbling in Japanese while under anesthesia.  :)  

[JDoe]

So, maybe a more accurate definition would be being able to express what a person of similar educational background and cultural situation who is a native speaker of the language would be able to express in their own language.

 

I like this much better, though I do have some reservations about the "educational background" and especially about the "cultural situation". The "cultural situation" I believe to be impossible to have the same as a one language native speaker for someone raised with a number of languages-cultures.

 

The educational background requirement seem to result in the the puzzling situation that someone less educated, and with less vocabulary could be considered bilingual, while someone with higher education and better understanding of the language would not be considered bilingual.

 

I do however see that there is a valid point from the perspective of prospective work opportunities inside the country or area where the language is spoken.

 

For these reasons I would consider someone to be bilingual if (s)he would be being able to express what an average person who is a native speaker of the language would be able to express in their own language.

[Rosie_0801]

Perhaps we can define "true multilingualism" simply as not being lost for words in any language one speaks?

 

Then I'm in an awkward spot, with my stutter! Or perhaps being capable of stuttering in two languages makes me properly bilingual. I can't stutter in Arabic yet. :p

[JDoe]

No, I do not believe one can become bilingual without immersion

 

I tend to agree, or rather I believe it is very difficult or require special aptitude/talent by the student. It is though possible to provide an immersion-like experience outside the target language zone, but that most likely would involve joining an ex-pat school (see expat bubble referred to above), in a homeschool setting I think it might be done only for those languages in which the parent is a native speaker and would require some extra effort even then.

 

 

Full disclosure:

I would probably qualify for Regentrude's symmetry test in three or four languages, funny thing is that the one that would be in doubt is my native language.  :laugh:

 

I think, count and dream in any one of the languages, normally corresponding to the one I have been in over the last few weeks, though admittedly I do not dream much any more (or do not recall as well as before).

[regentrude]

For these reasons I would consider someone to be bilingual if (s)he would be being able to express what an average person who is a native speaker of the language would be able to express in their own language.

 

I'm fine with that. What I was trying to express, apparently not well, was the concept of symmetry: if a highly educated person could only express in the second language what the average native speaker can express, this would make her or his language use asymmetric, because she could not perform in that language all the fuctions for which she is using language in her life. If it is part of one's life to discuss literature or science or farming or theology, not being able to do so in the other language would limit that person's expression and create an imbalance between the languages.

And yes, it is definitely correct that symmetry will be a more rigorous demand for people using language in more varied or specialized ways than for people whose language use in their native language is very limited. The point of symmetry is to be able to function equally well in one's profession, hobby, family situation etc in either language

[JDoe]

I'm fine with that. What I was trying to express, apparently not well, was the concept of symmetry:

 

I must say that I like the concept and has found the discussion interesting and enlightening, even if my view is that anyone learning multiple languages necessarily will end up with asymmetrical command of these languages.

 

Thank you for holding your ground and forcing me to think.

[regentrude]

I must say that I like the concept and has found the discussion interesting and enlightening, even if my view is that anyone learning multiple languages necessarily will end up with asymmetrical command of these languages.

 

Don't rob me of hope. I am still working on symmetry :-)

 

[Jean in Newcastle]

 

I do however see that there is a valid point from the perspective of prospective work opportunities inside the country or area where the language is spoken.

 

For these reasons I would consider someone to be bilingual if (s)he would be being able to express what an average person who is a native speaker of the language would be able to express in their own language.

Yes, especially for employment purposes, someone should be fluent in not only conversational language but any technical language needed for that job.  But some jobs require more fluency than others.  

[Jean in Newcastle]

I should have added "in your mind"... but I am sure people with language retrieval issues can be properly multilingual too, so perhaps not. 

Not having stellar language retrieval is one reason why I could never do simultaneous interpretation, even if I can speak both languages!  It takes me a minute to switch from one language to another.  I'm sure more than one person has thought sarcastically "Oh sure, she can 'speak' Japanese" when I can't immediately come up with a phrase when they command me to "say ____________" for them.  

[Jean in Newcastle]

Of course, Ester Maria isn't here to comment, but one thought on what you quoted.  I don't know all idioms and dialects even in English.  I know the ones for the regions I've lived in.  I know of some superficially from television, movies and books but I would be lost in some areas of the deep South, for example.

 

I grew up learning a dialect of Japanese.  I didn't know that I was learning a dialect along with it's speech pattern, but when I moved down to Tokyo to go to boarding school, people could instantly tell what province I was from.  I schooled myself then in learning to speak "NHK Japanese"  (Ie. - the news station Japanese).  Now most Japanese even in my province don't speak the dialect except for old people because most corporations move their employees around every 3 or so years making dialects hard to pass down. Occasionally when teaching Japanese I have to call a friend and ask her which of two pronunciations which I have stuck in my head is the "official" one.  But if I went way down south in Japan and talked to an older person there using their dialect, it would be pretty incomprehensible to me unless we switched to the lingua franca. 

[Tsuga]

I'm fine with that. What I was trying to express, apparently not well, was the concept of symmetry: if a highly educated person could only express in the second language what the average native speaker can express, this would make her or his language use asymmetric, because she could not perform in that language all the fuctions for which she is using language in her life. If it is part of one's life to discuss literature or science or farming or theology, not being able to do so in the other language would limit that person's expression and create an imbalance between the languages.

And yes, it is definitely correct that symmetry will be a more rigorous demand for people using language in more varied or specialized ways than for people whose language use in their native language is very limited. The point of symmetry is to be able to function equally well in one's profession, hobby, family situation etc in either language

 

My question would be, is this even remotely quantifiable? How would we measure this without a large dose of bias?

 

What you are saying sounds reasonable in principle, but in fact, I don't know a single person--even people born into trilingualism--who can do this. I am thinking of the many Quebecois who spoke a native home language, French and English from birth, studied in French through school and then English in Uni and then proceeded to speak in their native language and French in their careers--I know at least four people like this. And these people are not even in the sciences. These are political scientists, sociologists, diplomats.

 

But I am a native English speaker and I certainly would say that if they are equally fluent in English, French and third language, then they are not truly equal to native speakers in any of those. And that may be the case, actually. I don't know. My French is functional/advanced at best and I don't speak the African or Asian languages in question.

 

And then there are the Swiss whom I know. None of them are remotely symmetric. All of them are strongly German or French (I don't know any Italian Swiss). Finally you get to the Soviets. I know many Soviets who'd be considered native speakers of Russian and their home language. But none of them are symmetric. In fact even I can hear gaps in their Russian--even those who have Ph.D.s! I don't hear gaps in their native language but they often apologize and they certainly use more Russian idioms than native speakers from "the provinces".

 

So while I agree with the idea that "true bilingualism" should be symmetric, I don't see how this could work in practice, or rather, I have never seen it work in practice, even among very bright people who spoke two to four languages from the beginning.

[regentrude]

So while I agree with the idea that "true bilingualism" should be symmetric, I don't see how this could work in practice, or rather, I have never seen it work in practice, even among very bright people who spoke two to four languages from the beginning.

 

I would imagine that a person who had the opportunity for deep immersion in several languages could attain this symmetry. It would require spending extended periods of time living in an environment with that language and really taking advantage of this - not doing the the latter is why many immigrants never become even fluent in the language of their adopted country, since they often tend to cluster with other immigrants.

 

I think that, for example, an author like Nabukov, who emigrates to a country where a different language is spoken and remains an author,  producing great literature in the new language, might possibly have achieved symmetry (the ability to express himself through literature is, of course, not the sole measure of language use, but having such a  grasp of language subtleties would translate to other areas as well.)

 

I am still hoping that, one day, I shall get to symmetry ;-)

 

 

 

I know many Soviets who'd be considered native speakers of Russian and their home language. But none of them are symmetric. In fact even I can hear gaps in their Russian--even those who have Ph.D.s! I don't hear gaps in their native language but they often apologize and they certainly use more Russian idioms than native speakers from "the provinces".

 

I am not entirely sure what this means for symmetry. I notice when native English speakers (who speak nothing but English) have gaps, use vocabulary incorrectly, make grammar and semantics mistakes; it is a frequent occurrence, and my language mechanics is better than that of many native speakers I encounter. That can't be a sign of asymmetry, since those people are monolingual.

 

[JDoe]

I would imagine that a person who had the opportunity for deep immersion in several languages could attain this symmetry.

 

I am such a person, but alas no symmetry  :crying:

[Tsuga]

If the Soviet and Swiss models didn't provide that level for deep immersion I don't see that such a level would be possible. I am thinking in particular of families in which the mother was a native speaker, father Russian speaker, and vice-versa, and the family was "Homo Sovieticus" and living in a third country in which elementary instruction and street play occurred in the country's own language, with TV and film being 70%-80% Russian and the rest in the street language. This was particularly common in Central Asia and the Baltics. I know tens of families in which they were Tajik-Uzbek, Uzbek-Russian, Tajik-Russian, Kyrgyz-Russian, or Tatar... and the child in question spoke two languages from the cradle, a third from an early age.

 

Symmetry was obliterated in bilingual public school because there simply wasn't time for instruction in both languages in every subject area. And the Soviets decided, quite rightly IMO, that it would be ridiculous and counterproductive to teach pre-chem in 8th grade (or whatever) in the home language, and then chem in Russian. But many children got taught in Russian and others in their native languages in HS, then went on to university in the other language. My ex-h was one of them (high school in native language, street language the language of the city, uni and TV in Russian, home language native tongue).

 

I am 100% certain that nobody would say they developed symmetry. On the contrary they would discuss who was strong in which areas which is how I can be so confident saying that they would not say they were symmetrically bilingual. But how could you devise a better system than that, or than the Swiss system? How could anyone possibly get better than living in a country which supported bilingualism and trilingualism in the national and local media and through an integrated school system?

 

I'm having a hard time picturing that, though I'd like to believe it's true. My kids went to a school in which children lived in an English-speaking environment but attended 6-7 hours of school in German. Symmetry was nowhere to be found. Even babies, little 2.5 year olds, would have chosen a preferred language early on, even with parents using OPOL.

[Tsuga]

 

 

 

I am not entirely sure what this means for symmetry. I notice when native English speakers (who speak nothing but English) have gaps, use vocabulary incorrectly, make grammar and semantics mistakes; it is a frequent occurrence, and my language mechanics is better than that of many native speakers I encounter. That can't be a sign of asymmetry, since those people are monolingual.

 

It is people who are experts in a field but only know certain areas of it in Russian because they got their PhD in Russian. So half their vocabulary regarding certain things is missing in their "native" language. Because they are so immersed in Russian. I am not talking about everyday things. There would be words about this field that I would learn from people and then use them with people who were supposedly native speakers--they would insist that the Russian technical word was the "only" word. Particularly with management, some of them would claim that a word did not have a metaphorical meaning that it did.

 

And I agree that this is not a defect of bilingualism. I'm just trying to say--symmetry is really hard to achieve.

[JDoe]

By symmetrical, I mean that I speak all my languages at the same general level, not that there are never words that I know in one language but not in another. 

 

Hmm, I then have your kind of symmetrical, but not Regentrude's kind of symmetrical 

 

 

So half their vocabulary regarding certain things is missing in their "native" language. 

 

 

This is also my case, and I believe it does not detract from my fluency in my native language, except as to have an awareness of gaps that a single-language native speaker would not even be aware of.

[Jean in Newcastle]

Having lost my voice for a week, I realized that I didn't actually forget all my American sign language.  But I have no one here who understands it!  My American sign language is nowhere near my proficiency in English or Japanese but I realized with amusement that if you count American sign language as a language as many universities do, I am indeed a multi-lingual person and am not just bilingual.  I have a smattering of other languages, ancient and modern but since they can't be used to actually communicate anything do not count.  

[Tsuga]

Oh now we're getting philosophical, Jean.

 

I only recently realized you are in the Newcastle that is like... just down the road from me. I always thought you were in Newcastle upon Tyne, and your old-fashioned or somehow hued photo reinforced that belief of mine. But then you posted about being in the PNW and I was like... OH. I probably live about 3 miles ENE of you. :)

[Rosie_0801]

Of course ASL is a language. It's got grammar, don't it?

[Jean in Newcastle]

Oh now we're getting philosophical, Jean.

 

I only recently realized you are in the Newcastle that is like... just down the road from me. I always thought you were in Newcastle upon Tyne, and your old-fashioned or somehow hued photo reinforced that belief of mine. But then you posted about being in the PNW and I was like... OH. I probably live about 3 miles ENE of you. :)

LOL - yes, we're not that far away.  The photo is of me - in Japan and is the original old Kodachrome.  

 

ETA since one person thought I was wearing a crown and Victorian dress, that I'm wearing a kimono and a pink hair ornament (sort of like the ones in this link)  http://global.rakuten.com/en/category/551549/?p=6

[Jean in Newcastle]

Of course ASL is a language. It's got grammar, don't it?

Well, basically you just leave out all the grammar. . .  Again, it is a language that I did not learn formally but by immersion.  But not until college when I got a job tutoring all classes in my major to two deaf women.  We spent hours every day together even on the weekend and while it was not a requirement to learn sign, it ended up being easier.  

[Rosie_0801]

ASL does have grammar. It is more flexible than the grammar of a spoken language, but it definitely has some. :) Sadly many Deaf people don't know that either. :(

[Jean in Newcastle]

ASL does have grammar. It is more flexible than the grammar of a spoken language, but it definitely has some. :) Sadly many Deaf people don't know that either. :(

Oh I know it does.  But for me, translating from English to ASL, which is not at all automatic, it means consciously leaving out articles, tenses etc. that I'm so used to in English.  (Well, not all tenses, you do put a time element to show if it is in the past or future but it isn't as precise as English).  

[Jean in Newcastle]

Oh and talking about false impressions, Binip, for some reason I had pictured you as being East Indian but now I'm realizing that is probably wrong.  

[Tsuga]

Jean, adorable picture! As for your impression, I lived for some time in Central Asia and worked all over that region, so that is probably why. Also East Indian is not uncommon around here* so it's not an unrealistic assumption since I said I was not white.

 

But no, I am not. However some of my best friends are. ;)

 

 

*I am sorry Mr. Orwell. But there's a difference between "common" and "not uncommon" in this case so I maintain that I've gone with the proper usage.

[composr]

 

I heard somewhere that true fluency assumes that you can think in that language, instead of thinking of the sentence or words in your main language and then translating it in your head.  During that same internship I would come home after thinking in Japanese for 9 or 10 hours straight and would not be able to speak English very well for about twenty minutes until I had become acclimated to thinking again in English.  I am truly bilingual in that I learned to speak two languages from infancy and progressed through baby talk in both.  I was always about six months behind my peers in Japanese though and English definitely was stronger.  I unfortunately rarely get to speak Japanese now and it takes me a few moments to get up to speed.  I cover up my lack of initial fluency by sticking to small talk at first!  I never was fluent in Japanese reading and writing though I did use Japanese reading textbooks through the sixth grade.  That requires a lot more daily practice though even today I can see a Chinese character (Japanese kanji) and think "that is something to do with a horse" from recognizing a character here or there!  

 

This is incredibly true. Fluency depends entirely on what one hopes to accomplish. As for definitions, I'd also agree that fluency means that you are capable of thinking, formulating, and acting in the target language without recourse to any other language. Whether that mean conversational fluency, academic fluency, business fluency, etc., depends entirely on your intent. I used to think, growing up, that there was a magical abstract known as true fluency. This is a farce. Even in your L1, it is not possible to completely master the language in every respect. So, if your intent is to be able to handle the language well in daily conversation, then you can call yourself fluent in that, even if you'd  have trouble understanding an academic lecture.

 

I also agree with above comments: multilingual education refers to the medium of instruction rather than the language of conversation. This is actually quite simple to do. I am extremely classical, but in many cases, advocate not using textbooks but primary resources, and high quality resources can be found in many, many languages. Another option is to teach subjects that most naturally cross domains with the parent culture of the language. For French, my plan is to cover French Literature...in French. Or with Japanese, Japanese history and literature in the medium of Japanese.

 

With the mention of Latin and Greek above, it's important to historically realise that Latin was the medium of instruction for hundreds of years. In fact, this is how we are planning to approach Latin in our schooling. Hopefully, I'll have the grace to keep up consistency in doing it, but teaching Latin in Latin, and covering basics of logic and rhetoric in Latin should be massively beneficial. Far better than memorising hideous Noun Declension tables. :lol:

 

So you can have a multilingual house but monolingual education. Or you can have a monolingual house and multilingual education. Or you can do both. I would suggest formally instructing in each of the languages you'd like them to have a more academic command over (there are limits here, obviously), and not worrying as much about the material quality. Supplement from your knowledge, put it out there, and maybe others are wanting to also create better materials.

 

Good luck and it sounds like everyone here has put in fantastic effort.

[composr]

This all comes down to the definitions of "education" and "instruction", doesn't it? I guess I could say we're doing "literature" in X language, but I have the tendency to see it as "reading books" - therefore, enjoyment and personal growth, but not necessarily "instruction". The dialogue that follows is "life" and again, not necessarily instruction. The textbooks we use are entirely irrelevant. The reason I don't use textbooks in each language we speak is that they're unavailable or substandard, not because I am not providing a multilingual education. 

 

I would describe what Aristotle and Socrates did as instruction. Were there structured lessons? Not exactly. Textbooks? No, certainly not. Materials? Only what the mind provided. It was instruction, because it was intentional. Based on taking someone on a journey of understanding, discovery, analysis, synthesis and ultimately creation. It sounds to me as though you do much to instruct in other languages,  regardless of the presence (or absence) of textbooks.

 

In Hawai'i, the lack of adequate written educational material in 'Olelo Hawai'i doesn't prevent the Punana Leo from instructing in Hawai'ian. They can still use interaction, storytelling and dialogue to teach, instruct and educate (yes, all relatively synonymous).

 

Is this troublesome? To me, it wouldn't be.

[JDoe]

I also agree with above comments: multilingual education refers to the medium of instruction rather than the language of conversation. This is actually quite simple to do. I am extremely classical, but in many cases, advocate not using textbooks but primary resources, and high quality resources can be found in many, many languages. Another option is to teach subjects that most naturally cross domains with the parent culture of the language. For French, my plan is to cover French Literature...in French. Or with Japanese, Japanese history and literature in the medium of Japanese.

 

Very good alternative for literature, but when it comes to logic, science, math and such the choice is a bit more arbitrary

 

With the mention of Latin and Greek above, it's important to historically realise that Latin was the medium of instruction for hundreds of years. In fact, this is how we are planning to approach Latin in our schooling. Hopefully, I'll have the grace to keep up consistency in doing it, but teaching Latin in Latin, and covering basics of logic and rhetoric in Latin should be massively beneficial. Far better than memorising hideous Noun Declension tables. :lol:

 

Just in case you are unaware of it I should mention Lingua Latina by  Hans H. Ørberg which, in as far as I am aware is the only available text that follows this method for Latin. For Greek I do not believe there is anything like it, but would be interested if someone could point out that I am wrong.

 

http://www.amazon.com/Lingua-Latina-per-Illustrata-Pars/dp/158510423X

[SarahW]

Very good alternative for literature, but when it comes to logic, science, math and such the choice is a bit more arbitrary

 

 

Just in case you are unaware of it I should mention Lingua Latina by  Hans H. Ørberg which, in as far as I am aware is the only available text that follows this method for Latin. For Greek I do not believe there is anything like it, but would be interested if someone could point out that I am wrong.

 

http://www.amazon.com/Lingua-Latina-per-Illustrata-Pars/dp/158510423X

 

 

For Greek the closest to Orberg would be the Italian edition of Athenaze.

 

It's nearly all Greek, not Italian, fyi.

[Matryoshka]

Did you find this to be the case with even easier works in translation?  For example, we read Charles Pierrot's stories or even something like The Nutcracker in Russian rather than English and I'm wondering if over time one can progressively build on with more challenging works to be able to read even challenging works in the minority language?  I do think she'd have an easier time with these if we were reading the English language translations but I'm kind of hoping that by doing this it will stretch her language muscles more even if we do end up reading Lattimore's Homer (which I find superior to any Russian translation that I've found).  Should I just give up and let her read in whatever language she choses and only enforce Russian for stuff written in the original?

 

I have weird rules for which languages I should read works in - I am trilingual (English, Spanish, German).  The easy one is that I read works in their original language if I speak it.

 

Then there's translated works from other languages - Swedish stuff seems more right to me in German.  Okay, maybe I'm mostly talking about the combined works of Astrid Lindgren. ;)   Or maybe it's must because so much great Swedish stuff (especially for kids) is ubiquitous in German and virtually unheard-of in English.  And I'm currently working my way through a huge (but quite readable and enjoyable) biography of Franz Lizst - it was wrtten in Hungarian, but it does seem right to read it In German, since Lizst was a German-speaker (he didn't even speak Hungarian).  Or maybe it's because I had the book in German...

 

French and Russian stuff I've always read in English (although I did manage to get through L'Etranger in French leveraging the little bit of French I know with figuring stuff out via Spanish).  I have a Paolo Coelho book on my shelf in Spanish (written in Portuguese), but I haven't read it.  Not even sure where I got it... but somehow it does make more sense to me to read an original Portuguese work in Spanish rather than English... wonder if I should carry that over to French lit?

 

[Matryoshka]

Sorry I'm so late to this conversation - it's very interesting!

 

Symmetry was obliterated in bilingual public school because there simply wasn't time for instruction in both languages in every subject area. And the Soviets decided, quite rightly IMO, that it would be ridiculous and counterproductive to teach pre-chem in 8th grade (or whatever) in the home language, and then chem in Russian. But many children got taught in Russian and others in their native languages in HS, then went on to university in the other language. My ex-h was one of them (high school in native language, street language the language of the city, uni and TV in Russian, home language native tongue).

 

 

I think this is very true.  We had a Spanish exchange student a couple of years ago for a month over the summer.  I was thinking it would be great if we could speak an hour of Spanish sometimes in the evening for the kids to get some conversational exposure - I figured it might be nice for her when her brain was tired to give her a rest. 

 

But it turns out, she was Basque.  She spoke Basque at home, and at her school instruction was mostly (or all) in Basque (in which case maybe she wasn't even being educated bilingually?). Yes, she was fluent in Spanish, but not symmetrically. (She was living in Spain, it was all around her - I think many (most?) schools in the Basque Country are actually taught in Spanish, but her family was very Basque-oriented)  She wanted to do some kind of science at university, and she was fairly worried about passing the exams in Spanish (which she'd have to do if she went to university outside of the Basque Country) because she'd have so much vocabulary to learn.

[Tsuga]

I thought, since your user name is matryoshka, you were going to confirm my Soviet experience, making me happy. And here you are bringing up the Basques!

 

Fascinating example, though. Thanks for sharing.

[JDoe]

For Greek the closest to Orberg would be the Italian edition of Athenaze.

 

It's nearly all Greek, not Italian, fyi.

 

That is the edition my eldest is using.  :laugh:

[Matryoshka]

I thought, since your user name is matryoshka, you were going to confirm my Soviet experience, making me happy. And here you are bringing up the Basques!

 

Fascinating example, though. Thanks for sharing.

 

LOL - don't know why I ended up with that Russian username - had a few Russian nesting dolls, and it popped into my head as a good name, I guess!

 

I know pretty much no Russian outside of da, nyet, dosvedanya (spelled wrong I'm sure) and mir y drushba (peace and friendship, I'm sure also spell-mangled) - the latter was a thing on my floor in college - a few of the kids were taking Russian, and soon it was the standard greeting, along with a big enthusiastic hug (no idea if the latter is at all Russian, but we added it). :)  Oh, and I think I learned papagai (or something very similar) is parrot - which is the same as German, so it stuck. ;)

 

I've never been anywhere in the former Soviet Bloc - not even what was East Germany - for most of my extended stays in Germany the iron curtain and the Berlin Wall were still up, and I didn't venture over.  More recently, my stays have been mostly with relatives.  My older dds, however, have been to Leipzig, and one visited Berlin last summer.  I need to catch up!