Newbie

[Jnma]

Hi there,

 

I am new to the forum and have learned so much in my few weeks of lurking here. What a great community. I wanted to say hello and ask for your experience, expertise, etc. so that I may help my son. Sorry this is long.

 

A little background-

DS is 8. He has never been in school. He was in EI for speech, OT, and PT (delayed in speaking, OT and PT were for sensory issues). Around 3 he got an SPD diagnosis. He was diagnosed as ADHD at about 6.5 by his pediatrician, which basically was just me filling out the "teacher" survey and my husband completing it as the parent. I feel the diagnosis is accurate. He is currently not on meds. 

 

Some other current issues- He has struggled to read from the beginning. I didn't worry too much early on, because I felt he may just not be developmentally ready. He seems to tackle everything later (typical ADHD?). Then his eyes started to drift outward. We finally found the appropriate eye doctor and he is in VT. He has strabismus- exotropia. The doctor said he basically never has binocular vision. He has been going since May and will hopefully complete treatment at the end of the year. It has been going well. The eye doc tried to convince me that all of his reading problems are his eyes, but I'm not convinced. We've completed AAR/AAS level 1 twice. Things just don't seem to stick. He adds letters to words, takes wild guesses, and "forgets" words he's read hundreds of times. Also, writes letters, numbers, and sentences (sometimes) backwards. If I give him just one nonsense word (very large) like AB, he can't read it. To me that is not a tracking or convergence issue. I suspect Dyslexia. It feels like he has zero working memory.

 

He also struggles with math. Just doesn't get mental math- at all! Always tries to count on his fingers. Flips numbers around. We are currently using Saxon level 2, which we both like. He needs the repetition. I just don't know how else to present the material so that mental piece will click. Ronit Bird? We have tried Horizons, Singapore, and Math U See.

 

We are saving for a NP eval. I think it will help me tease out his issues and help to see his strengths. Need to finish paying for VT. I'm hoping to be ready for the NP in six months, so I've started researching now. Anyone know of a good NP in the Chicagoland area? What can I do in the meantime? I feel like I'm just marking time. Everything seems to bounce off. 

 

Thanks so much! Nice to be here

Jennie

 

 

[OneStepAtATime]

:grouphug:  :grouphug:  :grouphug:

 

Ran out of time.  Will respond later.  Best wishes!

[PeterPan]

Hi Jennie, welcome out of lurking!  How homeschooler-friendly is your ps district?  Will they comply with the law and eval you?  Because honestly, I'd save the money you have for Barton and get some evals through the ps.  Then, depending on what that turns up, save for the np eval.  Yes you'll learn a ton more with private, but *sometimes* the ps surprises you and is very helpful!  

 

I'm saying this because right now you're literally chalking up time without proper info.  If that school would run the dyslexia testing, you could get this sorted out pretty quickly.  Your problem is that the dyslexia label is *phonological* not vision.  Have you done the Barton pretest yet?  http://www.bartonreading.com/students_long.html#screen  Here's the link.  Do this and see what you get.

 

Yup, his working memory probably is low.  Sometimes the VT will work on it.

 

This is horrible, but what you *might* consider doing is spacing out the VT appts, asking for double homework, and letting that help you save money more quickly toward your evals.  Have you chosen a psych yet?  It will often take 3-6 months to get into a really good one, so even if you found one today you'd have a wait most likely.  That will give you more time to save.  :)

 

I'm really glad you were able to get his vision problems identified!  What's your doc's timetable on how long he thinks it will take?  Even if his VT is not complete, it's not going to keep him from having a good eval or give a false positive on dyslexia or something.  They're totally separate to the psych. 

 

We enjoyed the Saxon K5 math up through about lesson 60-something and then it seemed like things just weren't clicking.  (the sequencing, etc)  Ronit Bird has turned out to be AWESOME for us.  Given your ds' vision problems, he may have some problems with visual memory and visualization.  It's really ironic, because by right a dyslexic *ought* to be very VSL and have that as a skill to harness!  So when you go to a math program that uses more visualization and pair it with the VT to get the visualization and visual memory working, it can be really effective.  I would not just memorize at this age.  Actually go back and build the visualization and understanding.

 

How's his handwriting?  You mentioned he flips his numbers.  I was just reading in the Kenneth Lane VT book the suggestion to use felt numbers for math.  That way they can't flip them because they only stick on the correct side.  Hmmm!  You might also look at EZWrite.  I'm using it with my ds after years of frustration with my dd.  Her motor control never solidified, so I've been on this rampage to somehow prevent that problem.  I'm really pleased with EZWrite and it's what our OT uses, which is where I found out about it.  There's enough info online, you can sort of hack and figure out the foundational strokes for yourself.  I just made posters with a highlighter and had him do the strokes on the posters, in the air, on our backs, etc.  Then you start looking for those strokes *in* the letters.  It's actually much the same way Ronit Bird has them looking for dots *in* the dot patterns (subitizing).  So it's like subitizing for letters.  And since you can find the youtube videos and images of the posters and whatnot online for free, the price is right.  :)

 

Well welcome out of lurking!  :)

[Storygirl]

Welcome, Jennie! It sounds like you've already taken some first steps, which is sometimes the hardest thing. I dithered around for a long time trying to figure out what to do about my kids' needs, and I still haven't started evaluations for DD9, though I've suspected dyslexia for years. For a long time I just tried to struggle through on my own. Reading and participating in the conversations on these boards have really helped me find a direction, locate resources, and feel emotional support. These struggles of our children can be so hard to untangle, and we so want to do our best for them.

 

You may know this already, but having trouble memorizing math facts often goes hand in hand with dyslexia (I didn't know that before reading this board). Your son reminds me both of my daughter (suspected dyslexic) and my son, age 10. DS10 had early intervention for speech delay and was diagnosed with SPD at age two. I've always suspected ADHD but we just pursued a diagnosis this year (he is on meds now). He currently is in OT for a range of issues -- sensory, dyspraxia, dysgraphia, a bunch of other things. We have always homeschooled as well.

 

We learned so much through his NP evaluations and discovered some things about DS10 that were not even on our radar previously. I think that, with the range of things that your son finds challenging, that a NP evaluation will help you understand more about your son and help you teach him and parent him more effectively.

 

I'm glad you've joined the party here on the LC board, and I hope you find it as helpful and welcoming a place as I have.

[Pen]

My ds had some overlaps to what you describe, or close. He had amblyopia which got pretty much fixed with eye exercises, but it still didn't help his reading. He also has sensory issues (mostly sensory seeking, but in a few areas avoidant) and a tendency toward hyperactivity.

 

 If Saxon for math is something you both like, I'd stick with that.  At that age, it was not a good fit for my ds and we were using MUS, but it sounds like MUS has been tried by you and was not a good fit.  If you still have the MUS blocks though, I'd let him just play and build with them to try to help number sense. We also used money and other things like that to practice with.  You might also try a Japanese or Chinese style abacus for hands on work. (And personally, I'd allow abacus use or counting on fingers, including showing how to do "fingermath" to help make up for working memory problems... I think abacus use can be tremendously helpful toward learning to do math.)  I cannot speak to RB, but know it can be a help if there is dyscalculia. But I would probably not try to add or change from a program you like without an evaluation suggesting that it would be helpful to do so.

 

My ds learned to read with a program from http://www.highnoonbooks.com  Reading Intervention and Sound Out Chapter books. It did not require nonsense words. Nor memorizing rules, but rather worked by practicing patterns over and over.

 

While doing VT though I am not sure that I would try to be doing reading unless the VT doc says to, rather I'd probably try to use audio books, read alouds, videos, etc.  We still use all of those a lot even now that ds reads quite well.

[Jnma]

Hi everyone.

 

Thanks for the replies. We've had company and I lost a week.

 

I can't seem to figure out the quote feature, so bear with me while I reply to the suggestions.

 

I live in a large town with a top-rated school district. I know I will get an evaluation. After speaking with a few homeschool friends who have received evals, they agreed about two things. How homeschool friendly depends on the school (no friends evaluated at ours) and the evals take forever. Like 4+ months. I feel if I'm going to wait that long, I'd rather just get the NP a month or two later and keep the school out of my business. But maybe that is just me being paranoid. I could get the ball rolling, with the school, and see how it goes??? We're not able to space out VT visits to save more dough. We have six scheduled sessions left.  I get the sense from this thread that the NP will give me the most info. 

 

I gave DS the Barton screener (he passed). I am able to order Barton now. After doing a bunch of research, Barton seems like the best fit. He knows all of his letter sounds and most consonant blend phonograms. He loses it when trying to decode words. He'll surprise me and read "amethyst" and then not be able to read "Dan". He finished AAR level 1 strong today. Today was a good day. We will see what tomorrow brings  :glare:

 

I did realize that dyslexia effects math skills as well, but I don't understand why?! I love the idea of using the Japanese or Chinese abacus, but am unfamiliar with those. Any good book suggestions? Ronit Bird sounds great, too. I'm not sure where the breakdown is in his understanding, so I don't know what will work best. He understands number values, concepts of addition and subtraction. He understands what to do, it just takes forever as he is trying to use his fingers. I have taken out the MUS blocks hoping that it would provide him the visual, but he doesn't seem to understand. Do I keep modeling with the blocks? This is my problem. I want to try everything and see what sticks. My poor kid. 

 

His handwriting's not great, but it is legible. He is keen on writing everything cursive (we haven't attempted that yet). He writes willingly, when he is composing signs, drawings, etc. but balks when "forced" to do HWT or any other copy work. To be honest, I've dropped it for now. 

 

Anyway, thanks again for the welcome and help.

:001_smile:

 

 

 

 

[PeterPan]

Yes, if you can afford private, you'll typically get more information, more thorough testing, more feedback on what to DO with the results, etc. etc. going private.  

 

I'd wait on the Barton until you do the psych eval.  If you can get in to the psych in the next 2 months, just wait.  That way you're not screwing up the results by doing testing.  Or do it.  Some kids will read low anyway.  I'm just saying it would be one option, to wait, do the testing, get that sort of baseline, THEN start your interventions.

 

You might, through the evals, get some labels you don't expect or get referred for some therapies you weren't expecting. (OT, vision, Cogmed, etc.)  If going private for evals will pinch your budget and ability to do anything WITH the info you get, that might be a reason to lean toward the ps evals.

 

By law they can't drag them out like that.  If you start in the spring, when they're swamped, yeah.  But there are actually laws governing the whole thing.  It's still a drawn out process, but there are laws governing it. 

[merry gardens]

...

I did realize that dyslexia effects math skills as well, but I don't understand why?!...

 

Hello and welcome! 

 

To address the point you brought up about math and dyslexia, it depends on the child.  But, many of the same underlying issues like memory and trouble identifying symbols can take place with math.  You might look at your son's work for dyslexic style mistakes as your correct his work, such as backwards number or digits inverted. Or he might do the wrong operations, such as adding where he should subtract or multiple.  Or he might write a number upside down--which turns 6 into 9.  And on a bad day, several of those things could be going on at once.  It  makes correcting his math work more of a puzzle if you look for what he knows hidden within what he doesn't know.   Some of the ideas for teaching a dyslexic math are similar to teaching reading.  Reinforce right to left writing with number in math (and as it improves with reading it may improve with math and vice versa.) Use multisensory ideas to connect the proper symbol to the numbers and signs.  If memory is a problem with learning math facts, work on memory tricks to help with that, such as if he can't remember how to add 9 to a number, then instead add 10 and subtract 1.  Teach to his strengths and remediate the weaknesses. 

[PeterPan]

I was going back to reread your posts.  I can see why you're wanting Barton!  See how soon you can get in for evals.  I'm a little surprised he passed the screening tool, given what you were saying.  His working memory must be better than you're thinking, because that's one of the things it checked.  

 

It would be nice if you could get those evals to get a baseline and confirm what all is going on.  For us, the evals were a big transition. We're not just doing the reading intervention but going CRAZY with it: 4 times a day, etc. etc.  We've had ladies on the board here do as much as 10-11 short sessions a day (10 minutes each) with older kids.  Don't be afraid to ramp it up!

 

Thing is, even if you intervene, apparently (and I'm not a psych to know for sure), the dyslexia, etc. will still be identifiable, no problem-o.  Somehow I was thinking he was 6.  At 8, I can see why you're so anxious to buy Barton and get going!  

 

So on the math, do you have one of the manuals or just the blocks for MUS?  I think sometimes with that it's just handing them this thing they don't really relate to.  You *might* be able to use the RB C-rods book with the MUS manipulatives, hmmm...  That would be like $10.  I'm not saying just willy nilly buy it, but it's an idea.  

 

One of the things you're going to find with evals is that this stuff goes beyond labels.  For instance with my dd what blew me away was the processing speed score.  I had no clue about that, and it finally explained why working with her, well let's just say it reveals your level of sanctification and it's a good thing I'm not a methodist.  (of the kind that thinks you can lose your salvation by sinning)  Yeah, processing speed.  And working memory.

 

Have you seen Heathermomster's metronome homework protocol around here?  Drag up the thread and try it.  It's free and free is fabulous!  We did it and after dd could do the basics I started adding in digit spans using the Cusamano Auditory Sequential Memory workbook ($17) on amazon.  We got BIG shifts, real life shifts, doing that, and it's way cheaper than IM.  If you can afford IM, more power to you.  I'm just saying for the price ($17 and a free app) it was worth the effort!  

 

Does he have any midline issues?  I have my ds doing activities from the Focus Moves/S'cool Moves book ($10 ebook on amazon?) and those too are turning out to be very powerful.  VERY.  And BalavisX is being surprisingly useful to us.  That cost more for that book and it's not as useful.  Ds wouldn't reach behind to wipe and the BalavisX activities where they reach their hands behind their back are helping that.  He actually wiped himself today!!!  

 

So I'm just saying, based on him being 8, yeah I'd order the Barton.  And make your decision on either MUS or RB and go with the one your gut says.  You know him, so go with your gut.  Then add in some inexpensive cognitive activities for 20 minutes a day.  (midline crossing, digit spans, rhythm, anything, using any of the ideas I tossed out or others you find like Dianne Crafts).  Once you get that Barton, you might find yourself ramping up the number of sessions you do per day, which will keep you busy.  

[geodob]

Jnma, you wrote: "Also, writes letters, numbers, and sentences (sometimes) backwards."

Where I was particularly interested in his 'sometimes writing sentences backwards'.

Which is very different from reversing letters/ numbers.

 

For about 4 years, I've been part of a team researching this 'reversability', with a number of schools in the US and the UK.

Where basically, we have identified a significant number of children with reading and writing difficulties.

Who when asked to write in reverse, from right to left, with reversed letters?

Suddenly have little difficulty with writing and spelling.

 

Also when they write a math calculation in reverse, they have no problem.

 

Then with Reading?

When a 'mirror' is placed alongside a page of text.

They are able to read the reversed text in the mirror, fluently.

 

It is his 'writing sentences backwards' sometimes, that caused me to raise this?

To appreciate this?

Perhaps you could try writing a sentence backwards, in the way that your son does it?

Where you will appreciate how difficult this is, and might struggle to write a whole sentence this way?

But no doubt your son didn't struggle when he wrote it this way?

It might have been more natural to him?

 

So perhaps you could have him try this way of reading and writing, and observe whether he can read more fluently, and has no spelling difficulties?

 

Though I would add that a major part of this research, is with remediation.

Where it has been identified, that when a child with this 'difficulty'. Is encouraged to do all of their reading and writing 'backwards'?

Most often, within about 4 to 6 weeks.

Suddenly one day, they are able to read and write the 'normal' way.

 

This might not be relevant to your son?

But it is a simple thing that you can test for yourself.