Air Force or Naval Academy? x-post

[justkeepswimming]

Just exploring options for dd, and I know nothing - we are very much civilians. ;) We've never seriously considered military options for our kids, but dd has spent a lot of time recently with teens who are all on various military-bound paths & it's peaked her interest. DD is currently interested in civil or environmental engineering. She's entering her junior year in high school.

 

Looking over the homeschooling information on the Air Force Academy's website, it looks as though dd would be a strong candidate. Solid test scores, strong extracurriculars, excellent grades (most of them are well-earned "mom" grades...), tons of volunteer hours, athletic (although not on a team of any sort...).

 

But, I know nothing. We have family who were in both the Navy and Air Force, but those uncles passed away in an accident years ago. I have cousins who were in the Navy, but they entered right after high school.

 

Does anyone here have any experience with this kind of thing? It's way out of my scope.

 

DD thrives on routine, is strong as an ox, thinks living on a big ship or submarine (as a scientist, anyway) and going all over the world would be the greatest way to live a life (sounds like torture to me! haha!), is smart, has an iron-trap memory, she works best when told what to do, and when rather than left to her own devices.... all of which seem well-suited to an Air Force or Navy environment...

 

She doesn't want to work on planes, but wants to fly them - but we've never bothered with CAP since military just wasn't on our (parents') radar. How important is ROTC or CAP for the application?

 

But - what do I not know?!? Anyone? Should I continue looking in to this or abandon the idea. Maybe it's a lot tougher to even get in than I imagine (even with solid test scores and solid STEM transcript). I did see they need a letter of recommendation from 3 teachers. She's taking two online AP classes this year, so she'll have those recommendations. And possibly a course at the CC during the spring semester, so there'd be that as well... We could even add additional external teachers this semester if it's needed to have more outside validation.

 

We hate the idea of her signing away so much of her life choices to the military (always has been my main objection) - but maybe it's easy to serve the minimum and run for the private sector? I'm thinking Air Force/Navy would be less... intense (that's not really the word I am looking for, but I'm coming up blank)... than the Army or Marines?

 

I'm just wondering if you can even make a decision to want to apply to somewhere like this this late in the game. :o It always seems that no matter how much I learn about college applications, etc - there is always so much more I don't know!! So frustrating! Dh and I have zero experience to glean from (dd is a first-generation college student - she comes from a long, long, long line of intelligent, hard-working underachievers. Dh and I are trying to break the cycle with our kids, but it is so hard when you have no family history or background to dig from!)

 

 

[maize]

Go for it! If she is interested in both Air Force and Navy she should apply to both, getting an appointment (admission) is very, very competitive. Also, have her look I to ROTC options at other universities she is interested in. By the way, the Air Force ROTC just announced that ROTC graduates will now have the option of going into the guard or resrve upon commissioning if they don't want to go active duty. In general, a commitment to the military is not firm until a cadet begins their junior year, so choosing to start down that path does not totally lock a student into their decision.

 

AFROTC grad here, I have a brother who is a AF Academy grad and another who just finished up his second year there (definite Air Force bias around here...) none of us did ROTC or CAP in high school.

[maize]

Is your DD going into 11th grade or 12th? If 12th, she needs to get the ball rolling right away!

[justkeepswimming]

She's going in to 11th. :)

[In The Great White North]

 

 

Does anyone here have any experience with this kind of thing? It's way out of my scope.

 

Yep.  Several, actually.  PM Sebastien for Navy.

 

 

 

How important is ROTC or CAP for the application?

 

 

Helpful. not necessary.  Her resume should demonstrate some other leadership if she didn't do either.

 

 

 

We hate the idea of her signing away so much of her life choices to the military 

 

Think of it as a guaranteed job with no debt.

 

 

 

 I'm thinking Air Force/Navy would be less... intense (that's not really the word I am looking for, but I'm coming up blank)... than the Army or Marines?

 

 

He He.  I'd buy that.  :)

 

 

 

edited to add: She also has a contact who can get us directly into contact with a Congressman or Representative for the recommendation needed.

 

 

You don't need a contact.  Go to their website and search for  Academy Nominations.  There will be instructions and an application to fill out (it feels like another college app).  She needs to apply to her Congressman, both Senators and the VP.  Some Congressmen have interviews; others don't.

 

The first thing you/she will want to do is spend a few hours perusing their websites.  There is a ton of information available.

 

If she's still interested, she should apply for their Summer Seminar.  This program is in June after junior year of high school and designed to introduce kids to the Academies.  Applications open in Dec and fill quickly.

 

 

 

I'm just wondering if you can even make a decision to want to apply to somewhere like this this late in the game.

 

 

If she has been doing strong, college prep coursework and has a few sports/extra-curriculars, she's right on time.  

[maize]

She may want to take a look at the Coast Guard Academy as well.

[maize]

This thread may be helpful http://forums.welltrainedmind.com/topic/488378-anyone-applying-to-service-academies-or-rotc-this-year-class-of-2018/?hl=%2Bacademy+%2Bmilitary&do=findComment&comment=5293975

[justkeepswimming]

Thaaaaaaaank you guys for all the information!!!!!! Going to crash course this with dh and dd over the next couple of days. Thinking we might need to make another choice for Physics this year (was planning to use BJU with the videos), so need to learn all I can ASAP.

 

Lots of reading to do tonight! :)

[Sebastian (a lady)]

First thing to do is go back to your OP and tag it with Service Academy and military.  That should link it to a number of older threads with some really great info.

 

Then, give your dd carte blanc for a couple hours to go through the academy websites.  Tell her you'd like her to see what is required to apply.  The reason I say this is that an application really needs to be candidate driven, not parent driven.  And a lot of the answers to basic questions are laid out pretty clearly on the admissions pages of the academy websites.  Not only will she find a lot of information she is looking for, she will also find a lot of information she didn't know she was looking for.  (Hint: On the Naval Academy page, she will want to look at both the class profile for the most recent incoming class and the steps to admission page.  There is also a set of recommendations for homeschoolers.  USAFA has a lengthy booklet with advice for homeschoolers that compiles a lot of suggestions into one handy document.)

 

Then if your dd is still curious, I would suggest she sign up for more information on the academy websites  (link in the Steps to Admission section).  If she has questions about possible local events (there are fewer during the summer, but will probably be some Blue and Gold Officers (ie, USNA Admissions Liaison Officers) and USAFA reps at college fairs in the fall), what sort of classes she should take as a homeschooler or other questions, she can ask the Area Coordinator to put her in contact with a BGO for her area).  [Go to the tab for events, then click on the link for directory of Blue and Gold Officers.]

 

As a pp mentioned you DO NOT NEED a contact with the local congressional office.  Nominations are competitive, based on student qualifications.  This is not a patronage system.  In the Steps for Admission section, there is a description of all of the types of nominations.  It sounds like she would be eligible for four (Congressional Representative, both Senators, and the Vice President).  She should apply to every nomination she is eligible for.  Each office runs their own nomination selection process, which is separate from applying to the academy.  Information about Congressional (Rep & Sen) nomination requirements are available on their website, typically under constituent services.  (Or search for {Name of Rep/Sen} and Academy Nomination.  Generally they will accept applications beginning spring of junior year and close the application window in early fall (ie, as early as beginning of Sept).  Every year, I have several candidates miss the deadline for one of their possible nominations.  I've had strong candidates who missed the deadlines for all of their possible noms and who did not attend an academy as a result.

 

 

 

 

[Sebastian (a lady)]

She should also consider applying to the summer seminar programs for the academies she would like to attend.  These are one week leadership programs for rising seniors.  Applications are in the winter.  (USNA opens the application for Naval Academy Summer Seminar around January.  There is a deadline a few months later, but there is also something of rolling admissions.  Applicants do not need to have their app in the first hour it's open, but I also wouldn't wait until the last week.)

 

A couple reasons this is good.  It gives a candidate a chance to see what the academy is all about.  I've had fired up candidates attend and come home understanding that this was not a path they wanted to pursue.  That is great.  Because there's nothing worse than someone who's at an academy who doesn't really want to be there.  It's also good for students who weren't really clear about what was involved, but are excited about what they experienced.  There are more applicants for NASS than can be accepted and also there are fewer NASS spots than actual places in the incoming class.  There is also a desire to give priority to students who can't easily visit USNA over a weekend or in a daytrip.  So students who live closer to USNA might not be accepted to NASS where a similar student living in Iowa or Oregon might be.  So if a student is turned down for NASS, it doesn't imply that their application for a spot in the incoming class is doomed.

 

The summer program application is based on class rank and test scores.  Since homeschoolers don't have a class rank, it makes test scores doubly important.  So I would suggest she make sure she takes the PSAT in October and consider taking an ACT or SAT such that she has scores in hand by the time of the summer program applications.

[justkeepswimming]

She's reading through the Air Force Academy homeschool packet now and plans to look at the websites tonight when we are back home. I agree she needs to lead interest and enthusiasm-wise. She's who brought it to my attention after she met the kids and some were planning on applying to the Academies. She asked why we'd not looked at them before, so I started researching to tell her why it wasn't a good fit. Lol. But the more I read looked more and more like it would actually be a great fit for her personality and interests.

 

Thanks for all the info. I will feel much wiser about all this soon! :)

[Sebastian (a lady)]

Participation in JROTC or CAP is not required. 

 

However, an academy is going to be looking for evidence that a student is capable of working well as part of a team and also that they have leadership potential.  Team sports, scouting (especially Eagle Scout, Gold Award and unit leadership), leadership within extracurricular activities, and jobs can all be evidence of this.

 

Varsity team sports is not required.

 

However, an academy is going to be looking for evidence that a student has a high degree of fitness and trainability.  If they aren't in an organized team sport, then evidence of regular and demanding physical activity is something the candidate should be able to provide.  There are a lot of ways to do this.  Martial arts or running with regular 5Ks are possible options.

 

 

Keep in mind that a lot of students apply and that an academy can only accept a small portion.  Last time I looked, there were enough qualified applicants to fill a USNA class three times over.  So any student wants to provide ample information for the admissions board to base a yes answer on.  If there isn't a history of sports, there should be other things that demonstrate fitness, team participation and leadership.  Also homeschoolers need to be sure they have sources for outside recommendations.  At least a few outside evidences of academics are a good idea.  AP or SAT Subject Test scores are one possibility.  Outside courses such as community college are another.

 

Finally, I recommend that any student interested in an academy ALSO apply to the ROTC scholarship program for that service.  This is a college officer training program where students attend a civilian college/university and participate as a member of a ROTC unit (typically weekly drills as well as required college classes each semester).  ROTC does not require a nomination.  Also College ROTC programs are not related to high school Junior ROTC programs. 

 

Hope some of this helps.  Don't hesitate to ask questions.  There are a couple academy alumnae here (I graduated from USNA in the 90s and have been a BGO for about 10 years) as well as several moms of current or graduated cadets & midshipmen.  It's a wild ride, but it can be a great college and career choice.

[Sebastian (a lady)]

Some links to other related threads:

 

Service academy experts - a question

 

Thoughts on Service Academy Admissions

 

Anyone Applying to Service Academies or ROTC this Year?

 

Advice for Air Force Academy appointment

 

 

 

[OneStepAtATime]

Some great responses here.  

 

I just thought I would share a conversation I just had with a man I knew when I was a kid.  He was my neighbor at my old neighborhood.  He and I were chatting recently (went back to old neighborhood) and he mentioned that his sons who chose to go into the Navy are doing really, really well.  They have loved it.  But when their original service agreement ended, one just automatically signed up again.  The other indicated he wasn't certain he wanted to stay in.  The Navy offered to cover graduate school.  He still held out.  They offered a SIZABLE bonus to stay in.  He stayed in.  And is going to graduate school and will graduate with no student loans/student debt.

[justkeepswimming]

Can I PM some of you with some specific information about dd? I don't want to post it here publically, but would like some outside opinions to see if she'd be as strong a candidate as I think she would be before we start down this path of paperwork and keeping track of things. :p The athletics area would be a weak area, but I suppose she has a year or two to change that.

 

Right now, I think she'd work toward this as simply a reach school goal (any other "reach" schools would be out of our league financially, so the plan has just been to apply to the state U's, which aren't selective at all, but would at least get a gosh-darn degree in the family!!). I know, even if she's a good candidate, that the chance is still small - but I like that she'd have that carrot to keep chasing after.

[maize]

Do research ROTC scholarships--they might make some other reach schools quite affordable!

[Sebastian (a lady)]

I'm happy to answer questions so pm away.

 

And I definitely agree with looking at ROTC schools.

[In The Great White North]

I'd be happy to answer questions too

[Laura's Haven]

I'm also an AF veteran if you want to PM with questions :-)

[swellmomma]

I have no idea how it all works in the USA but if your daughter is not sure about if she could handle the lifestyle then I would recommend joining CAP or whatever other cadet programs are available there to try it out.  I have been posting this summer about my kids participation at army cadet training camp this year.  Both have been in cadets for 2 years and both want a military career now as a result.  DD is a strong candidate, ds will only be if he can get off his meds and remain stable but he loves every minute of it.  Even if they do not carry onto the military after high school, the lessons learned through cadets will serve them well.  Which reminds me I need to update my thread about dd now that she is home and I got a training report from her commanding officer.  

[Sebastian (a lady)]

I got a note yesterday that the USNA admissions board is starting to review completed applications.  If a student graduating high school this year (2015) is interested in applying, now is the time to get going on the application.

 

The first step is to submit a preliminary application.  Students who applied for summer seminar programs generally don't have to submit a separate preliminary app.

 

Students who were designated as official candidates should have received log in info for their online application.  If they haven't gotten this, they should check spam folders.  Sometimes students who did not submit SAT/ACT scores are not designated as official candidates until scores are received.  Students can contact Candidate Guidance/Admissions to provide unofficial scores.

 

This is also the time to get started with requesting nominations.  Many congressional offices have deadlines for accepting nominations requests in early fall.  I've seen some as early as the beginning of September.  This is especially at issue in election years, since the staffs want to make sure that their nomination slates are completed before the new Congress takes office and they know that they may be quite busy with campaign commitments. 

 

There are a couple requirements that typically don't get scheduled until a significant portion of the application is completed by the candidate.  Medical and interviews in particular.  So a student who delays in submitting paperwork may end up in a bind for scheduling medical exams or interview appointments.

 

It is generally better to have the application submitted than to wait until the end of the cycle.  The board has less flexibility in asking for more information (like 1st semester grades or new test scores) when they are at the end of the cycle and have already filled much of the class. 

 

The boards will generally not review a package that is not complete.  However, medical review and nominations are separate from the academic qualification process.  So a student could receive a provisional/conditional offer that is contingent on being medically qualified or on receiving a nomination.  (A couple of years ago I had a student receive an offer of appointment in October.  He was a strong candidate and had a 100% package before school let out for the summer.)

 

Students who are official candidates should have a contact email for an admissions liaison (Blue and Gold Officer for USNA, other names for other academies).  If they haven't been in touch, the student should send an email introducing themselves.

 

Communications should be done by the student (not parent) in most cases.  Exceptions would be questions from a homeschool parent about transcripts and other documentation that would typically be handled by a guidance office. 

 

 

[Sebastian (a lady)]

Sebastian, your post made me smile. I am SO glad I don't have one going through this this year!

 

You get a well deserved rest.

 

Unless of course, I can talk you into becoming a BGO.  You have a wealth of experience.

[Sebastian (a lady)]

Give me three more years! It was so exciting to see those photos of 2 for 7 signing a few days ago. 

 

I was swooning over the "First Night" celebration.  Luau food (including shave ice), bounce houses, climbing wall, dunk tank (I only saw mids in it in pictures.  I was hoping a couple of my classmates who are staff might have taken a chance too.).  There was even a concert by the LT Dan Band (Gary Sinise).  It really looked nice.

 

The other post that caught my eye was the assurance that even though there was construction at the library, the Coffee Mess was still open.  THAT was certainly not a thing when I was a mid.  Can't decide if that is good (more time at the library) or bad (even more caffeinated than I already was). 

 

But I approve of efforts to make things regimented but still nice.  It is a de facto home for four years.  It doesn't have to be misery for all of it. 

 

[Reefgazer]

My DH is retired Navy; he was in for 28 years and now works as a civilian for the US Navy. 

 

One thing I would do is make sure your DD goes in as an officer and not as enlisted person, regardless of the service branch.  Enlisted life is very tough and comes with far fewer privileges.  You can go in as an officer through a few ways, the most common are via appointments to the academies or through ROTC.  Regardless of which way you go in, a secure and stable career in the military is a thing of the past; it is no longer a guaranteed job.  If she goes in as an enlisted person, she will need to serve her commitment (4-6 years, usually).  If she goes in an as officer, she can resign her commission after serving 4 years.  The services are getting as bad as corporations are in cutting people loose, even if they intended to make the military their career, so even if she wanted to make it her lifelong career, the military might have other ideas about that.  For that reason, DD's best bet might be ROTC at a college where she earns a degree that is marketable in the civilian world, because any military certifications/degrees she gets are relatively worthless on the outside should she decide to resign her commission or retire.

[Reefgazer]

OP should just be aware that this will not be the case for everyone.  They will bend over backwards for you and dangle incentives *if* you have skills they need at that moment.  But they will cut you loose quickly, no matter how good you are, if your skill set doesn't match up to what they need.  So you have to do some sleuthing and predicting to determine if you'll be one of the incentive-worthy people. 

Some great responses here.  

 

I just thought I would share a conversation I just had with a man I knew when I was a kid.  He was my neighbor at my old neighborhood.  He and I were chatting recently (went back to old neighborhood) and he mentioned that his sons who chose to go into the Navy are doing really, really well.  They have loved it.  But when their original service agreement ended, one just automatically signed up again.  The other indicated he wasn't certain he wanted to stay in.  The Navy offered to cover graduate school.  He still held out.  They offered a SIZABLE bonus to stay in.  He stayed in.  And is going to graduate school and will graduate with no student loans/student debt.

 

[OneStepAtATime]

OP should just be aware that this will not be the case for everyone.  They will bend over backwards for you and dangle incentives *if* you have skills they need at that moment.  But they will cut you loose quickly, no matter how good you are, if your skill set doesn't match up to what they need.  So you have to do some sleuthing and predicting to determine if you'll be one of the incentive-worthy people. 

Agree with reefgazer and I hope I didn't give a false impression.  Both sons have specialized skill sets that are currently desirable to the military.

[Mnemosyne]

Didn't read all the posts, regardless.

 

ROTC is great if she's at all interested in being an officer. There are lots more leadership opportunities for officers, pay is better, it is often safer, tend to get more say in where they move, and officers are, quite frankly, treated better. That would also allow her to go to university with a very good scholarship, potentially, if she's picked up by ROTC, and she'll be commissioned when she graduates. If she commissions, often they are also offered a chance to stay in longer in return for having graduate school paid for, if that's something she'd be interested in. She doesn't have to go to the Naval academy - they are hard to get into, but she could go to a regular university with ROTC.

 

Sounds like she'd probably like Navy more. Lots of flying in the Navy, surprisingly. Lots of boats too.