Frustrated by AG

[mazakaal]

I had really high hopes for AG... had heard so many good things about it, samples looked excellent. It was a lot of money for us, but I justified it believing that it would last us for 3 years and the younger kids as well. We've spent the last four weeks doing the first two chapters of AG and ds is just not getting it. The first chapter ds understood completely. Some excercises he did very well with, but others he completely bombed, I think just because he didn't like it and didn't apply himself. He ended up with a C+ on the test. He just finished chapter 2 and got a C on the test. This one he seemed to have more trouble with. He just couldn't catch all the indefinite pronouns. I'm really frustrated. It doesn't seem like there's enough instruction, just definitions and lists of words to memorize. Even if AG had a return policy, I can't mail it back from England. I don't want to switch programs again, but I don't know what to do. I thought about having ds read Grammar Land (printed that out last year for dd) because it personifies all the parts of speech, and I thought it might help the concepts to stick, but ds doesn't want to read a book that was intended for his younger sister. Any suggestions? We've used R&S in the past and it was too much work and time for me because we did so much orally. We also did GWG last year and, though ds did well with the exercises, he didn't seem to actually learn the information to carry the information over for future use, if that makes any sense. Its like he knew if for the day and then promptly forgot it the next. We spent the summer doing Winston Grammar supplemental exercises to get him caught up. He did well with that and got a B+ in the final test. I wish I had just bough Winston Grammar Advanced. Grrrr. What should I do????? Help!

[Robin in DFW]

just putting it away and trying it later.

 

My dd16 is using AG and she has done fine until Unit 8...she is really having a hard time. So I can understand a younger student struggling.

 

We are actually thinking of just eating the expense and using something else. She despises this program. For her, diagramming does not clarify the sentence. She says it muddles up what she understood by doing the labeling.

 

Like you, she feels the explanations are not quite sufficient. This is just her opinion.

 

Robin

[siloam]

I had really high hopes for AG... had heard so many good things about it, samples looked excellent. It was a lot of money for us, but I justified it believing that it would last us for 3 years and the younger kids as well. We've spent the last four weeks doing the first two chapters of AG and ds is just not getting it. The first chapter ds understood completely. Some excercises he did very well with, but others he completely bombed, I think just because he didn't like it and didn't apply himself. He ended up with a C+ on the test. He just finished chapter 2 and got a C on the test. This one he seemed to have more trouble with. He just couldn't catch all the indefinite pronouns. I'm really frustrated. It doesn't seem like there's enough instruction, just definitions and lists of words to memorize. Even if AG had a return policy, I can't mail it back from England. I don't want to switch programs again, but I don't know what to do. I thought about having ds read Grammar Land (printed that out last year for dd) because it personifies all the parts of speech, and I thought it might help the concepts to stick, but ds doesn't want to read a book that was intended for his younger sister. Any suggestions? We've used R&S in the past and it was too much work and time for me because we did so much orally. We also did GWG last year and, though ds did well with the exercises, he didn't seem to actually learn the information to carry the information over for future use, if that makes any sense. Its like he knew if for the day and then promptly forgot it the next. We spent the summer doing Winston Grammar supplemental exercises to get him caught up. He did well with that and got a B+ in the final test. I wish I had just bough Winston Grammar Advanced. Grrrr. What should I do????? Help!

 

Megan,

 

First of all the first unit is tough, IMO. We did JAG first and I had to do several of the exercises in unit 1 of AG over again to pass. My oldest actually did better with it than I did, but she is language intuitive while I am math intuitive.

 

Back when my dd did JAG it was at times challenging, and at one point we started the whole thing over again. She did eventually get it. That said I am modifying AG now. My dd puts forth a lot more effort if she has less to do. Given AG is not a full year course you can easily break each lesson into two or more parts. Right now I have my oldest do half a lesson a day, and she is doing well with that. If I increased the amount she was doing, the quality of work would go down dramatically.

 

JAG and AG has worked really well here because of the unusual sequence. But in comparing Winston Grammar, the biggest difference is the level of sentences and amount of work. Winston and JAG would be more on the same level. AG has a good 1/3 more work and the sentences are a lot more complicated. I haven't seen Winston Grammar Advanced to compare it to AG, but I wouldn't be surprised to find out there was less work, and the sentences weren't as complicated. AG is really trying to make the child think and be able to use the information outside of grammar studies while so many programs tend to use sentences that have been chose to make the lesson easier. My guess is your ds would do better with Winston, but not get as much depth of learning. The sentences in the samples on CBC seem to be more simple, but that is a very limited picture of the text, so that could be wrong.

 

Have you considered pulling out the Winston Cards and using them with AG? It might be that your ds works better in an multi-sensory environment. AG suggests making cards with the pronouns on them for the child to use-have you had your ds do that? I actually made a complete set of cards for each of us, so we can all refer back as needed-including how to do all the compound sentence diagramming.

 

(((Hugs)))

 

While I love AG and it works here, I get that I thought this would be perfect ad I am sooo frustrated and lost feeling. I hope you can find a good back up plan, weather it is to find a new way to use AG, or find something different.

 

Heather

 

[LindaOz]

I was reading your post and thinking 'Winston Grammar, Winston Grammar' and then got to your last sentences ;)

 

Has your ds done Winston Grammar Basic before doing the supplemental exercises? Maybe you could pick it up second-hand to save on expense. I'm really impressed with WG and plan on using it with all my kids.

[ekarl2]

Please, ladies, call me (I'd be happy to return the call on my dime) so I can help you over your hump. If it seems AG is not right for you, I'll tell you, but many times I have some suggestions that can really help. Our phone numbers and e-mails are on the inside cover of the books. Mom wrote this and taught it to hundreds of students over the years. If there's a stumbling block, we've seen it before and can help you through it.

 

AG is challenging, but it should not be frustrating.

[mazakaal]

Heather, I actually decided in the first few days to spread each exercise over two days. I had hoped that having less to do each day would give him incentive to really apply himself on the few sentences that he had to work on. I didn't make pronoun cards. I must have missed that instruction somewhere. I'll have to do that. We never actually did WG Basic so I don't have those cards. I got the concept from a friend and picked up the Supplemental Exercises book cheap. I just taught the parts of speech in the order of the exercises, reviewed them really as he had already learned them all previously.

 

Erin, thank you for the invitation to call. It's late here right now and I'm tired, but I'll call next week. I look forward to any insight you can offer. Thanks.

[Sahamamama]

Please, ladies, call me (I'd be happy to return the call on my dime) so I can help you over your hump. If it seems AG is not right for you, I'll tell you, but many times I have some suggestions that can really help. Our phone numbers and e-mails are on the inside cover of the books. Mom wrote this and taught it to hundreds of students over the years. If there's a stumbling block, we've seen it before and can help you through it.

 

AG is challenging, but it should not be frustrating.

 

I was just going to suggest to the OP, "Hey, Erin is on this board, just ask her a question!" But you beat me to it, Erin! :D

[lisabees]

Megan, I recently bought AG and found that first lesson to be way too tough for my 13 year old. I talked to Erin and bought JAG. Yes, it's a lot of money (and it really bothered me that I had to do it) but it is a perfect fit now. Much slower and the sentences are simpler.

 

Good luck in your decision.

[Shawn On the Border]

Megan,

 

I agree that your son might be a little young for AG. My son is 14 (8th grade), and he began in 7th. We only did the season 1, but we are going to do seasons 2 and 3 this year (he may go to school next year). He hasn't had too much problem with it, but he used ABeka previously. If I were you, I would slow it down a little and maybe take some time to do some examples with him before he does the exercises. I've been doing that with Chalkdust Algebra on some of the more difficult sections and it has made a world of difference.

[Amy loves Bud]

One of the things that helped us early on was for me to sit with Luke and work the sentences with him. I would usually do the first two sentences in each exercise myself, talking through them as I did so.

 

Then for subsequent sentences I would ask him step by step questions, "Find all the naming words," or "Look at this list of pronouns, be sure you have every one marked in the sentence." For the first few units, we did about half or more of the sentences in each exercise this way, then I would have him work independently on the rest. I would stay nearby and HAPPILY answer each question, showing him in the text why I answered the way I did. Doing this, he was always able to do well on the tests without my help.

 

Now we are on Unit 8, and we work two sentences together on the first exercise only, and he works independently on the rest of the exercises. I am always available to work through any sentence he has a question about, though. He has continued to do well with less hands on from me.

 

It seemed to get a lot easier when he was labeling every word in the sentence. When he was only labeling a couple of parts of speech, he would miss some. Hang in there, once the habits and routine are formed, it gets a lot easier!

 

And don't rule out JAG, my neighbor switched her daughter to it when AG was too much and they are having a wonderful experience. She told me they "bonded over grammar" last week, lol!

[Sunkirst]

We've been using much the same approach as Amy. I work through as much of it with my ds as he seems to need. I probably do 1/3 of the sentences with him. It's taking us much more time than 1 unit/week, but he's actually understanding what he's doing (as am I surprisingly - I was lousy with grammar!).

 

I've found that the instruction with AG is extremely concise. There are no wasted words, and of course, every lesson builds on the previous one. One thing that has been helping is to create our own flow chart, modified to have all the helpful hints about identifying specific parts of speech all in one place. My son is actually pretty excited to have created and to understand something so detailed and (for him) effective.

[DarlaS]

We've been using much the same approach as Amy. I work through as much of it with my ds as he seems to need. I probably do 1/3 of the sentences with him. It's taking us much more time than 1 unit/week, but he's actually understanding what he's doing (as am I surprisingly - I was lousy with grammar!).

 

I've found that the instruction with AG is extremely concise. There are no wasted words, and of course, every lesson builds on the previous one. One thing that has been helping is to create our own flow chart, modified to have all the helpful hints about identifying specific parts of speech all in one place. My son is actually pretty excited to have created and to understand something so detailed and (for him) effective.

 

That's an excellent suggestion! I was just thinking the same thing about the instruction (concise). I like it that way as too much wordiness and *I* tune out. My son needs a little more though.

 

It is very easy to miss an important hint. My son (who knows his grammar--or at least thought he did.;)) struggled with the very first exercise. He missed the bit where you find all the nouns FIRST and then the adjectives. Once I pointed that out to him, he got the next two exercises completely correct.

 

I'd suggest getting something like The Blue Book of Grammar and Punctuation along with it. It's very grown-up. :D You should have a book like this on hand for quick reference for writing anyway.

[mazakaal]

I'd suggest getting something like The Blue Book of Grammar and Punctuation along with it. It's very grown-up. :D You should have a book like this on hand for quick reference for writing anyway.

 

Thanks for this suggestion! The book looks excellent, and it's inexpensive. Thanks so much.

[siloam]

Heather, I actually decided in the first few days to spread each exercise over two days. I had hoped that having less to do each day would give him incentive to really apply himself on the few sentences that he had to work on. I didn't make pronoun cards. I must have missed that instruction somewhere. I'll have to do that. We never actually did WG Basic so I don't have those cards. I got the concept from a friend and picked up the Supplemental Exercises book cheap. I just taught the parts of speech in the order of the exercises, reviewed them really as he had already learned them all previously.

 

Erin, thank you for the invitation to call. It's late here right now and I'm tired, but I'll call next week. I look forward to any insight you can offer. Thanks.

 

Megan,

 

I made a card for each unit. Then I made the first card a different color, so we can use them as references anytime we need. I am obviously older and wiser so I use it more often. Dd will just pretend she knows what she is doing and will get things wrong and have to re-do the exercise. I reminder her to use the cards, and occasionally she actually does. :001_huh: She probably uses them more often for diagramming compounds than for parts of speech, but at least I know she has a back up. If she chooses not to use it that is her problem. :D

 

The Winston cards are not that complicated. They are just small cards that include a part of speech, a definition of that part of speech, and then the pronouns on the pronoun card, the prepositions on the preposition card, ect... The idea is the child writes the sentence out on a larger surface, probably a white board, and then uses the cards to parse the sentence then transfers their answers to the workbook. I bought it but didn't use it because the unusually sequence of AG works much better for me. I can't see the subject and verb in a regular sentence without first eliminating other parts of speech, and most traditional programs teach one to start with the subject and verb. I am also analytical enough that once you tell me to do things in a certain order, I want to always do them in that order, so all through my ps education I got stuck on the first step. :smilielol5:

 

I personally think AG gets easier the more parts of speech that have been covered. The whole picture makes more sense than just picking out parts. Though I am a big picture type person, so maybe that is just my learning style. ;)

 

Heather

 

[mazakaal]

Thanks for the instructions on making the cards, Heather. I'm going to try this.

[Joy at Home]

Hi,

 

We had the same problem with AG. Dd12 had not had formal grammar up to that point, and she became quickly frustrated with her lack of knowledge. We sold it.

 

What is working this year very nicely is R&S 5. We started from the beginning and are slowly working our way through. It's a much better fit, has plenty of practice and reinforcement, and we are really loving it.

 

Good luck,

Lisa

[Kimber]

My 6th grader and my 4th grader (he's an older 4th grader) have just started doing Analytical Grammar. We spend 2 weeks on a lesson, and they love it.

 

But I teach it on the white board and go through every aspect of the lesson, including working problems. (This sometimes takes an hour. And we have fun doing it.) Also, AG is too advanced for my 4th grader, so I use different sentences that I make up for him, really simple ones about rabbits and squirrels and little kids. This keeps the vocabulary out of the picture and makes the program much more user friendly for him. (I couldn't stand the idea of teaching two different grammar programs since they pretty much do everything else different. It was just easier to make up the additional sentences. He is probably on the same level as JAG.)

 

Also, I know most people would have quit using this product if their son responded like my 4th grader did initially. But luckily I figured out that my son is a big picture person just like me. He could never do well at AG or anything else by simply learning one part here and another part later. So while his scores were low, I didn't hesitate to keep going. Once we got far enough along that he could understand the whole picture, the pieces fell into place.

 

So, if you have a child that is a big picture person, like my son and myself, you might want to wait it out and see if that helps. My son is really understanding, and he enjoys it.

 

Hope that helps some, and good luck.

 

Kimberly

[Stacy in NJ]

just putting it away and trying it later.

 

My dd16 is using AG and she has done fine until Unit 8...she is really having a hard time. So I can understand a younger student struggling.

 

We are actually thinking of just eating the expense and using something else. She despises this program. For her, diagramming does not clarify the sentence. She says it muddles up what she understood by doing the labeling.

 

Like you, she feels the explanations are not quite sufficient. This is just her opinion.

 

Robin

 

I just wanted to mention that unit 8 is the hardest of all. It incorporates all the sentence variations (1-5). Hang in there; if she can master that unit the rest gets easier.

[Stacy in NJ]

to make AG doable and enjoyable for us we:

 

1. At the beginning of each unit I work with ds, and we work 3 or 4 sentences on a white board.

 

2. He only does 3 or 4 sentences per day. I don't assign a complete page. He corrects all errors each day. He does AG 4 days per week.

 

3. He's created a "cheat sheet". It's a 3x5" index card that lists the 5 types of sentences (n-v-n-n, ect.), the list of prepositions, the questions to ask to determine where the PP is diagramed, and other simple information.

 

4. We take as much or as little time on each unit as necessary. Because he had previously completed JAG, he found the first few units of AG rather easy. We didn't linger, only reviewing them. He's found unit 8 quite challenging and he's been parked there for two weeks.

 

5. I don't use the tests as actual tests, only as extra sentences to work, and I don't grade his work.

 

Ds has learned a ton from both JAG and AG. I don't imagine he, as a 12 yo child, has a perfect understanding of grammar, but I do know that he's progressed quite nicely with AG and we'll continue to use it for a several years to come. We'll probably work our way through the review books in years to come.