What is the argument that Catholics are not Christians?

[Tutor]

Drat! I knew I'd type something stupid or wrong since I was rushing to get to supper. (giving myself virtual dope slap)

 

Christ is a title, not a name... same results, but it was bugging me that the evidence of my stupidity was "out there" :)

[Julie in Austin]

"When I was questioning Mormonism, I prayed for the truth and I learned God said in the OT to test a prophets prophesy, if it was false, then he wasn't from God. I found a list of 55 prophesies that were made that never happened."

 

If I had been drinking coffee, I would have spit it all over the keyboard. Good thing I don't drink coffee.

 

Two thoughts:

 

(1) At the risk of rhetorical excess, you do realize that you may have staked your eternal salvation on whether someone's list was accurate . . . or taken out of context . . . or misconstrued . . . or whatever?

 

(2) Mormons do not believe that prophets are infallible. If you found a list of 1,055 "false prophesies" from Mormon prophets, I would still believe that they were prophets.

 

End threadjack.

[Daisy]

Wow! And to think I missed most of this. LOL. I don't care what you call yourself...Baptist, Lutheran, Catholic, Pentecostal, etc. To be a Christian requires only 2 things.

 

Ro 10:9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.

 

So we usually say that when one confesses with their mouth they are doing more than just empty yapping. So I'll take it one step further and say that "confessing with your mouth" means you are living out your life in a such a way that you show others that you believe in your heart that Jesus Christ is the Son of God.

 

That's it. Pretty simple. I've seen Christian Catholics and Non-Christian Catholics. I've seen Christian Baptists and Non-Christian Baptists. That you choose to identify with a certain denomination is totally besides the point. Being Catholic or Baptist or Pentecostal or Luthern or Methodist will not save you. I prefer to just ask folks point blank. Do you believe Jesus is the Son of God, that he was born of the virgin Mary, that he suffered and died, that he rose again on the 3rd day? Do you believe that you are a sinner and that the punishment for sin is death? Do you believe that Jesus paid the price for your sin? Do you confess your sin? Do you believe?? It doesn't have to be complicated but man, we sure like to make it that way.

[OnTheBrink]

There are many generalizations being made in this thread, about both "sides" of the issue. I'm in no way an expert on the Catholic church--not by a long shot whatsoever. But I do know a thing or two about Protestantism and many things posted here are incorrect. I don't recall who has said what, so don't think I'm calling anyone out.

 

1) Protestants don't revere Billy Graham et al as the Catholic church reveres Mary. At least, most don't. I've never met one who did, but I can see that maybe someone would. Who knows? In any event, I've never sat in a church (and I've sat in many) where a human being was revered or counted on the same level as Jesus or God or any person from the Bible, male or female. So, that's not a common tenant of Protestant Christianity.

 

2) Not all Protestant denominations believe in eternal security. Calvinistic Christians do, Arminian Christians don't. And there are a slew of beliefs that fall in the middle. Mennonite's don't believe in eternal security, for example.

 

3) Christians are called to keep other Christians accountable to the faith. Some may call that "judging" and I know the judge-not verse has been misused a LOT (in general, I mean). Yes, Christians are to keep each other accountable to the beliefs of the faith, but that in NO way implies that they're to condemn anyone, believer or not, to hell. That is solely and completely God's place, not man's. Only God knows the heart of a man. Man can only know another's heart by their actions, which can be misleading, taken out of context or misconstrued. Man doesn't have grain of sand's worth of grace that God does, nor does man have that much holiness to be in position to make such decisions.

 

4) I think it's an erroneous and dangerous thing to lump entire denominations as this or that and then label them, or assume things. It really doesn't matter one iota to God what church we attend or what denom we belong to. God has ONE book of life, and we're either listed in it or we're not. If you are a follower of Christ, then the Bible is the basis of belief. The Bible makes clear how one is saved. For me, I choose to look at one's heart and life over what church they attend.

 

And now Alton Brown is on and I'm distracted. I think this was all I wanted to say. :D

 

OH, not it's not! Erwin Lutzer has written a great book that dissects Christian doctrines. It's called "Doctrine's That Divide." It's a worthy read.

[*anj*]

Jumping in (with fear and trembling.)

Credentials: Converted to Catholicism in college. Learned Catholicism from Dominican Friars, who are no slouches. Bachelor's degree in Religion. Presently worshiping in a Calvary Chapel, though my heart is torn between it and my Presbyterian (PCA) church.

 

Okay, now my attempt to answer that question.

After reading lo these many pages of questions and answers I am surprised that no one has made the distinction between what "individual Catholics believe/think/see" and the official teaching of the Catholic church. There is a difference.

Although the Catholic Church is one Church, there are many different expressions of Catholicism within that one church. I have friends who run the gamut in their personal interpretations and adherence to various church teachings. This is why you can no more say "what do Catholics believe?" than "what do Protestants believe?" Of course there are universal beliefs, but people often differ in other beliefs. And official Catholic teaching is promoted in some places more than others. For example, the official teaching is that the use of artificial forms of birth control is sinful, (http://www.catholic.com/library/Birth_Control.asp) but I was personally advised by at least three priests to use it anyway. This isn't to go off into that tangent, but I'm just showing one reason that you need to actually clarify whether you're talking about the personal opinions of individuals or the stated teaching of the institution.

 

Oh, and for the record. I believe that all churches contain some Christians and some people who think they are Christians. I personally became a Christian while I was still in the RCC, and I have friends whom I believe to be Christians who are practicing Catholics.

[*anj*]

Can someone answer a question for me.....do Catholics believe that Mary was sinless? And do they pray to her?

 

 

The Catholic church does teach that Mary was sinless (and a perpetual virgin.) Yes, it is true that individual Catholics pray to Mary and that is also official teaching (praying to saints.) But you have to understand that within Catholicism there are different kinds of prayer. Prayer to Mary is considered intercessory prayer, or a prayer asking her (or other saints) to pray for something/someone. The problem that most Protestants have with this is that while we do ask other believers to pray for us, we see no Biblical evidence for asking deceased people to pray for us. Even if their souls are in heaven, there is nothing in Scripture to support that practice. In fact, we are told not to try and communicate with the spirits of the dead. (I understand that the lack of Biblical support is not problematic for Catholics, because the practice is supported by church Tradition and Deutero-canonical literature.)

[Amy in Orlando]

I'm sick (really actually sick) and reading this thread makes me tired and sad. We're Catholic. We've been excluded from every big homeschool group in Central Florida because I can't sign a statement of faith and even if I did, it's been made clear to me that we would not be accepted into the group as "Christian-enough." The secular groups here have been the same - we're "too" religious to be really accepted by those groups. The one Catholic group that I found isn't a good fit either in that we don't go to Mass everyday. It's a lose-lose situation in that department for us.

 

We've had people we thought were friends who would not attend the post-ceremonial celebration of our kids' baptisms, communions or confirmations because of what they thought they knew about our religion. We never asked them to actually come to our church (unless they wanted) just to attend a bbq or brunch or whatever afterwards. This bothers me because we've been asked by those same people to many similar celebrations and I've always made it a point to find out what the celebration was about and what that family believes. We go and we learn and we appreciate our differences.

 

I find it disheartening to see so many people here that simply dismiss my faith. I find this whole thread disheartening. I appreciate the many posts of people who have said that it is between an individual and God. I believe this to be true. But, there are enough posts that make me leery of participating here. It surprises me on this board that my family can be judged by people so unwilling to do some basic research. Isn't that what we're trying to teach our children? How to find the information needed to form a solid opinion?

 

For the record, we do not worship Mary or the saints. No one I've ever known has done this. Intercession, imo, is no different than asking for prayers on this board. I've never and have never seen anyone kiss a statue in or outside of the church. (Now if I were ever lucky enough to see the statue of David, I might have to kiss that.) I am a Christian and I will not defend that to anyone. And, I would never ask anyone to defend their Christianity to me.

 

And, now, I'm going to go sleep - hopefullly for a few days. Hope I don't sound too crazy.

[Laura K (NC)]

1. Who is bashing anybody? I'm confused. Maybe your post is misplaced. If you click on the little note icon to the lower right of my post you will reply directly to me. If you have posted to me in error, you need not read this post any further.

 

2. I don't feel persecuted. If you choose to read carefully, you will note no feelings of persecution in the post I tried to delete, in any post I have written, OR in my M.O.

 

3. Stop being so condescending.

 

4. I don't leave negative rep points. They are so childish. The whole rep point system has really got to go. If you want to heap coals on somebody, slam them out in the open like you just did me.

(btw, if you are trying to repeatedly leave me neg. rep--it isn't working because you can't leave neg rep or positive rep if you have under a certain amount of posts. It only comes up as neutral. Which means, I know who you are )

Maybe you're not as smart as you think you are. ;)

[Amy in Orlando]

1. Who is bashing anybody? I'm confused. Maybe your post is misplaced. If you click on the little note icon to the lower right of my post you will reply directly to me. If you have posted to me in error, you need not read this post any further.

 

2. I don't feel persecuted. If you choose to read carefully, you will note no feelings of persecution in the post I tried to delete, in any post I have written, OR in my M.O.

 

3. Stop being so condescending.

 

4. I don't leave negative rep points. They are so childish. The whole rep point system has really got to go. If you want to heap coals on somebody, slam them out in the open like you just did me. Wasn't that easy?

 

I'm not directing my post at anyone in particular, just the general feeling I had after reading through this thread.

 

 

Are you talking to me? I wasn't being condescending - or I didn't mean to be. I'm sorry if you took it that way, Laura.

 

I only give positive rep points - if anything. I would never use them to make someone feel bad. Heck, I hardly ever even use them.

 

Ugh -- I think maybe (hopefully) you're talking to someone besides me. I don't think I slammed anyone or raked anyone over coals.

 

Gaaahhh ... if I did, I'm truly sorry. (Note to self, only post when you are of sound mind and body)

[admin]

Sorry everyone. Looks like this is starting to spiral out of control. Closing the thread now.