New here, long question(s) regarding math ld

[Orthodox6]

Hello ! I am new to these fora. If I could locate a "search" function on this website, I would use it, rather than trouble folks with unnecessary questions.

 

Although we do not homeschool with classical ed, we do incorporate elements of the philosophy.

 

We recently had our 10-yr dd complete a thorough battery of educational testing to confirm/deny suspected LD issues. As expected, there are strong math LD issues at play. The disparity between dd's math situation and her verbal abilities startled the researcher !

 

We have not yet received the final written report; we have received only the top-line oral discussion of results.

 

Currently, dd is in the 4th grade (for accounting purposes). She did not fare well with my preferred K-6 math program (Horizon), and is doing a bit better with Calvert math. Not long ago, she started the Calvert Grade 3 program.

 

I have wondered whether Teaching Textbooks ("TT") would be a good program for her. I understand from what I have read so far, that the TT program is sadly deficient in content and depth for the math "able" and for the math "normal" student. I can see that readily from the samples I have found.

 

I am wondering, nevertheless, whether TT might be a good choice -- for the short run, or, until end of 6th grade -- in order to strengthen dd's self-esteem. [and, obviously, to help her to learn math !] She took the downloaded placement test this morning, and fits right into the TT grade 4 program which, according to the phone rep with whom I spoke, should be released for public sale on Friday. My dd liked the presentation-style of the website demos. She evinced skepticism that it really is a "4th grade program", when she saw some of the topics covered. I do not want to explain to her that TT is a "dumbed-down" program, as that seems counter-productive to the goal of increasing her self-confidence enough to make math less "the enemy."

 

In case anybody suggests Saxon math as an option, please forgive my blunt dislike of that program. Others of my children have used Saxon at times, and the ds currently in an outside school is stuck using Saxon algebra I right now. I dislike the program, my children dislike the program, and we have spent time with every level up through algebra I.

 

My hope for dd, if it be realistic, is to strengthen and build her math skills sufficiently to use, eventually, the Jacobs' textbooks, which we consider quite student-friendly. (If I'm dreaming wildly, somebody please tell me !) (I know that she won't be able to use my personal favorite of Forster's algebra.)

 

Thank you, most sincerely, for any advice.

 

Antonia

Edited April 29, 2009 by Orthodox6

[readwithem]

Welcome Antonia! :) Don't feel that you are bothering people. We are all walking this path together.

 

I can't help you with the LD issues but I'm happy to give you a bump, and to tell you about the search function :) The search button is at the top - you may see "User Control Panel", "Board Rules", "Community", etc. Keep going to your right, till you see the "search" function. Click on that :) I always seem to have to use "advanced search" because I want to look by user name etc.

[Orthodox6]

Thank you for the reminder ! Until about two years ago, I participated in the Sonlight fora, which uses this same web-ware. How quickly I forgot how to navigate !

[Renee in NC]

I haven't ever seen TT - I do know that the idea of it being "dumbed down" has come up before and strong discussions have ensued.

 

Have you looked at Math U See? I never thought I would use it - I hate the "U" part and it seemed...dumbed down.;) However, I did by Primer for my 8yo special needs son and have been plesently surprised how well it works for him. I know others have had the same experience with special needs kids as well.

[cathmom]

Yes, so far MUS is working pretty well for my dd10, whom I suspect has ADD and either a math phobia or dyscalculia. But we've only done 3 lessons so far LOL!

[Corraleno]

Antonia,

 

I just posted in the other thread on this topic, but I'll add something here, because my son also has an alphabet soup of LDs in addition to his giftedness. I think TT is great for kids with math LDs. It moves slowly and presents information in a simple, straightforward and often humorous way. It's VERY nonthreatening, which is crucial for kids who struggle with math.

 

There are many different ways to learn math, just as there are many ways to "read" the Odyssey, ranging from modern language versions to scholarly translations which preserve much of the structure of the original. Am I "cheating" by reading (and enjoying) Lombardo's modern translation instead of reading (and hating) Lattimore's much more difficult, archaic, and "authentic" translation? For people who are passionate about Homer and gifted in languages/literature, Lattimore may be preferable. For those who aren't, what's the point of making them read the most difficult translation, if they will hate every minute of it and feel frustrated and stupid? If reading an "easier" translation allows that person to really enjoy, appreciate, and UNDERSTAND the material, wouldn't that make more sense?

 

I find it rather puzzling that while no one seems to object to parents choosing an "easy" Latin or grammar curriculum, or doing a "conceptual" science program, there seems to be this sentiment that doing anything less than the most rigorous math program is somehow a disservice to the child.

 

As I said in the other thread, I would much rather my child enjoy math, feel confident in his skills, and not be intimidated by it, instead of hating and fearing math and thinking he is "stupid" because I forced him to go through someone else's idea of the "best" math curriculum. I also think that by supplementing TT with other kid-friendly materials (like Math Mammoth or Life of Fred), it's possible to get an excellent math education without stressing out kids who are not naturally mathy.

 

That's my 2 cents, anyway!

 

Jackie

[HeidiD]

As expected, there are strong math LD issues at play.

 

Because of this, you may find that reliance on a single program will not be sufficient. One of my children has a math LD and in his case, none of the programs we have used has provided adequate repetition for him to understand and retain the material. As a result, I've ended up using pieces of multiple programs as well as supplements and manipulatives to get the job done.

 

I use Katherine Stout's Maximum math as a topical guide to keep us on track.

 

If Teaching Textbooks appeals to you, why not give it a try? It may be just what you need. If not a perfect fit, consider using it as a "spine" and supplementing with other materials if need be.

[hsmom27]

Just wanted to add another vote for Math-U-See. I personally hate the program, but it's working amazingly well for my very LD DS. The biggest benefit is that he seems to be enjoying it. Also the levels aren't graded and the kids can move through them at their own pace. I like that because it keeps DS from looking like he's not moving through grades as fast as his siblings.

 

Just FYI, other math programs I've tried include Horizons, Singapore, Miquon, and McRuffy. They were all a bust. HTH

[Orthodox6]

Checking back in whilst dinner simmers. . .

 

I really appreciate all the experience and observations !

 

DD has me revising nearly everything we did in hs'ing ! She seems almost unrelated to her three elder brothers in "how" she learns. This, despite her dx closely mimicking that of one brother. I would bet my mortgage on her having ADHD, although "the professionals" won't commit for definite yet. (I have woeful-level ADHD, so recognize the characteristics !) She has mild NVLD. The p-docs are split between MDD and anxiety spectrum. At any rate, this places her very like the 19-yr ds who has ADHD (woeful level, too), mild NVLD, and anxiety spectrum. [Another ds has Asperger's and mild NVLD.]

 

Fully agree with all who champion instilling self-confidence in a child, rather than force-feeding a "dream curriculum." That's why I'm trying to find what is best for dd herself -- but simultaneously factoring in that she shall be good college material in the future, so should not be limited by curricula which "feel good", but which don't prepare her for subsequent higher education.

 

A sidewinder question for you all with special needs students -- and also for that subset of you all who are "special needs" individuals yourselves -- Have you experienced much trouble from trying to teach a subject-specific curriculum which "fits" your child, but which definitely does not "fit" you ?

 

I'm reminded to ask that question because of the incoming recommendations of other math programs.

 

Some years ago, I was reading the then-current, "philosophy-of-the-day" of "learning styles". The "ka-ching !" insight flashed that "teaching styles" are inextricable from the teacher's own "learning styles." If the teacher cannot learn from the material, s/he is unlikely to teach well from the material. [unsolicited Teaching Tip of the Day !]

 

At the time, I was trying to figure out how best to work with the [now 19-yr old] ds described above. I realized that I was hamstrung, to great extent, trying to teach him math if the program was not one with which I fruitfully could learn myself. One close friend exerted her utmost persuasive skills to talk me into Miquon Math. I told her it was "too weird." She then clobbered me with "Making Math Meaningful". I dutifully tried to teach from the first grade book for a week, then chucked it aside, telling my friend that if I could not even understand the directions in the teacher guide, it was pointless to continue. (For comic relief, I now reveal that I was "math competent" throughout high school, took all the honors math classes, and survived college calculus.)

 

I never have looked much at MUS, but can do so at the upcoming local hs book fair. Teaching Textbooks clearly appealed to my dd when I showed her the sample lesson streams onsite this morning. Over the course of three boys, I have taught from Horizons, Saxon, Calvert, Sadlier, Singapore, UCSMP, ABeka, BJUP, VideoText, Jacobs, Teaching Textbooks, Foerster and, even, that Hungarian program available on the Internet. (Yep, the Queen of Failed Curricular Attempts ! :lol: :o )

 

Thank you for the reminder not to "put all my eggs in one basket". How do you all "balance"use and quantity of supplements, though, so as not to overwhelm a student who already feels overpowered by math ?

 

DD has "spatial issues" and "sequencing" issues, is what I remember most. (Want to get my hands on the written report ASAP !) We were counselled to work hard on bolstering her fluence with basic math facts. To that end, they suggested a couple of tools. One was a rich-man's price tag software, so forget that. Another was the FlashMaster, which we already had, courtesy of using Sonlight curricula at one time. So I have stepped up her use of that aid.

 

I apologize for the prolixity.

 

Again, I'm deeply appreciative of you all !

 

Antonia

[Stacy in NJ]

I've looked at TT but haven't used it. It's a program I would definately not use, especially at the lower levels. IMO, there are too many conceptual gaps. They just don't explain certain basic concepts with enough depth or consistancy. I actually think it would be a poor choice for a stuggling math student.

 

Honestly, I think your best bet is to buy some workbooks from the bookstore or use what you already have on hand. Just offer tons of explanations, working problems with your dd, and tons of extra guided practice.

 

4th grade is really just the four operations (add, sub, mult, div), place value to the 100 thousand, the basics of fractions, and some basic measuring and geometry stuff (perimeter and area).

 

The purple Spectrum wookbook offers lots of practice. Use a math fact drill program like Times Tables the Fun Way.

 

I think a huge problem with typical math programs use with ld kids is that they focus on way to many topics and don't offer enough practice. Focus on the really important topics and practice, practice, practice.

 

Here are some links:

 

http://www.citycreek.com/Default.asp?Redirected=Y

 

http://www.amazon.com/Spectrum-Grade-School-Specialty-Publishing/dp/0769636934/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1241050883&sr=8-1

 

HTH, Stacy

[Renee in NC]

Because of this, you may find that reliance on a single program will not be sufficient. One of my children has a math LD and in his case, none of the programs we have used has provided adequate repetition for him to understand and retain the material. As a result, I've ended up using pieces of multiple programs as well as supplements and manipulatives to get the job done.

 

 

 

:iagree:

 

I hadn't thought of it that way, but we *are* using multiple programs. He also uses Kumon workbooks and some MCP Math in addition to the MUS Primer. This is because there isn't enough repetition in MUS.

 

That is interesting, though, what you said about your dd's LDs. My ds has sequencing issues, too.

[HeidiD]

I think a huge problem with typical math programs use with ld kids is that they focus on way to many topics and don't offer enough practice. Focus on the really important topics and practice, practice, practice.

 

 

 

 

This is very true.

 

Also, depending on the degree of disability, it might be necessary to work intensively on underlying concepts, ie. basic numerical relationships, before the basic math operations even begin to make sense. Concepts that the majority of people comprehend intuitively might need to be specifically taught in tiny increments, particularly if the student is dyscalculic Math facts might be more consistently retained by reinforcing them with multisensory drills - the same method successful in teaching dyslexics.

 

A couple of books I've found really helpful are "Teaching Mathematics to Students With learning Disabilities" (a very thick tome packed with info)

and "Dyscalculia Guidance". It seems that most of the research for math disabilities is being done in the UK at this time - I've been able to get a number of helpful books via Amazon. The info in these books has really been helpful - particularly as there is no one-size-fits-all program, which necessitates creating one from scratch.:tongue_smilie:

[Misty]

Hi Antonia,

I have an 11-year-old daughter with Asperger's, Hyperlexia (visual-spatial/motor-delay type), dysgraphia, dyscalculia, ADD (executive functioning and working memory defictis mostly), SPD, mild Tourette's, OCD, a gifted IQ, and Synesthesia.

 

Teaching Textbooks has been GREAT for her! It offers *just enough* information for her to know HOW to work the problem, but not too much information so as to overwhelm and confuse her. I am not trying to make a math whiz out of her. She is a writer, strongly attracted to words and books. She does NOT need a deep understanding (nor a deep appreciation) of math. She needs to learn the basic stuff for each grade level and that's all. And that is exactly what TT is giving her. She LOVES the format and she LOVES the simplicity. She is doing fine with it.

 

That said, I used Right Start Math with her all throughout elementary school and it did wonders for her understanding of basic elementary concepts. I just switched her to TT this year for 6th grade. I still don't know how many years we will use it, but it is working great for her right now.

 

Now, for my highly gifted 8yo (also a diagnosed Aspie) who does not have a math disability..... I'm not so sure I will be using TT with her... She wants to use it after seeing her sister do it... But I'm not so sure it's the best thing for her. I'm still using Right Start with her, as I do with all my children in elementary, and then I will see what I can dig up for her in junior high.

 

Please send me a private message if you'd like to talk more about this.

[cillakat]

i would try TT. Even if it has it's weaknesses, if she finds it enjoyable and positive, then starts to like math, any holes could be filled in later.

 

My dyslexic child has definitely had classic dyslexic struggles with math - learning facts, recall plus processing speed issues. RightStart was a great fit for a short while - the games and abacus use really did get her quite fluent quite quickly in addition and subtraction.

 

Eventually we switched to Singapore and it's been *wonderful*. We still use those rightstart math card games at least once a week to keep fact fluencey high.

 

:)

katherine

Edited May 2, 2009 by cillakat

[Orthodox6]

The TT 4th grade materials have arrived (finally). It "looks" like 3rd grade math (with a dash of 1st grade sprinkled on). After doctor appt. today, I'll have dd start. I did the first lesson myself last evening (set myself up as a "student") and found it tediously overkill. DD's vote is what counts, however !

 

We still have not received the written report -- six weeks later. (supposed to receive it two weeks after the readout appt.) We leave messages, and never are called back. :confused:

 

Antonia