Discipline and homeschooling

[yellowperch]

I'm new here, but I've been a reader off and on for a while. My dcs are 9,7,5, almost 3 and due to arrive this summer.

 

I would like to homeschool. I really would. I've read extensively about it. I have friends who do it. I have kept my dcs home until first grade and taught three of them to read (a process I love).

 

Here's my problem: I'm a discipline disaster. (And FWIW, my DH works long hours an is often abroad for weeks and sometimes months at a time, so I am on my own much of the time. When is is home, things are somewhat better but not the way I'd like them to be.)

 

My children are very good kids--kind at heart, generally good to each other, fun playmates for other children. They are smart, funny, lovely. Other adults like them, and they are welcome in social and sports settings.

 

However, they don't listen to me. (FWIW, I know the situation is of my own making. The good news in this is that it can be of my own un-making). I'll give some examples.

 

I want them to pick up their pajamas after they are dressed in the morning and put them into the laundry basket. I repeat this two or three times before they do it. They have never once done it without my nagging. They are not defiant about not doing it; they are simply oblivious until I raise my voice or take them by the hand and show them what needs to be done.

 

I tell the two oldest to do their homework after giving them a nice snack and chatting with them about whatnot. They ask if the neighbor boy can come over. I say sure, if their homework is done before 4. I get a phone call, or need to help my 2 yo or go upstairs to change the laundry from the washer and the dryer. I come down and the neighbor is in the yard, the homework is half done. I bring the boys inside, kindly send the neighbor home and nag them until homework is done. (FWIW they are great students--the homework is in no way difficult. There is no way it will take more than fifteen minutes.)

 

Dinner is over, the two oldest are expected to clear the table, load the dishwasher, and bring the trash out. They've been shown several times how to do this, and coached through it, too. They CAN do it beautifully. I'll go bath the two little ones and find a monopoly game underway, and nothing done. "Oh, sorry mom. We forgot. Can we finish the game?"

 

I don't know if these examples give enough clues for any of you to help me. Let's just say I'm wishy-washy when I want to be authoritative. I give in to whining. I don't follow through on threats. I'm so insanely busy and distracted I just take the most expedient route possible in the short term.

 

What does this have to do with homeschooling? In my heart of hearts I know my kids deserve a better education than the one they are getting at our local public school. I love teaching them and working with them one on one. But my fear is that this disasterous discipline situation will lead to hmeschooling failure. I need my home to run well to homeschool well, and that can't happen when my kids run roughshod over me.

 

A homeschooling friend was visiting the other day. She said, more or less in passing, "Oh, I expect first time obedience and I get it." She's a warm, gentle woman, and she runs a home where the expectations are very clear. I love that.

 

My question is how do I get from where I am to where she is? (Although I prefer to call it "first-time, cheerful cooperation.") I'm can't really bring myself to ask her how she arrived there. But I do expect it has to do with her world view (she's a conservative Christian; I'm a liberal agonistic.) and with the fact that she has been rasing her two children like this since birth.

 

I've already spoiled my kids so how do I turn the tide?

 

Anyone who made it this far deserves my eternal gratitude. Does anyone have advice, strategies, books to refer me to?

 

Many thanks.

[dragons in the flower bed]

My children are very good kids--kind at heart, generally good to each other, fun playmates for other children. They are smart, funny, lovely. Other adults like them, and they are welcome in social and sports settings.

 

However, they don't listen to me.

 

I want them to pick up their pajamas after they are dressed in the morning and put them into the laundry basket. I repeat this two or three times before they do it. They have never once done it without my nagging. They are not defiant about not doing it; they are simply oblivious until I raise my voice or take them by the hand and show them what needs to be done.

 

That's normal. Your kids are perfectly fine. If you're raising kids who are kind at heart and welcome in social settings, then don't change anything, especially not to live up to an ideal casually tossed off at a visit.

 

Your children are not spoiled, from your description. It sounds like they're just average kids who goof up and have to be led back on the straight and narrow frequently. That's what kids do. Please don't compare yourself to other parents. You never do truly know what goes on in someone else's house.

 

You can definitely homeschool using this discipline method you call nagging (and I would call consistent verbal correction & direction). It takes patience, but I think it's worth it.

[Haiku]

I recently read here that "kids don't do what you expect, they do what you inspect." I have found that to be true.

 

I think that what you need to do is not go off to do something else when your kids are expected to do something. If the kids are supposed to put away their pj's, stand with them while they dress and then make sure the pj's are put away.

 

Have them sit at the dining room table to do their homework and make them bring it to you to be reviewed before they have permission to do anything else. If homework only takes 15 minutes, you can sit at the table and read a magazine or draw with the toddler until it is finished.

 

Don't go bathe the baby until you have supervised the clean-up of dinner and the taking out of the trash.

 

You have trained your kids that they don't have to do what you asked until you get on them about it. Now train them that you will supervise them and they will not have freedom to do what they want to do until the chores are done. Eventually they it will become routine and you'll probably be able to ease up a bit.

 

Tara

[whitestavern]

I have a 9 and a 6 yo and I'm just now getting to appreciate the fruits of my labor. I have "disciplined" much like you describe your own style. I am finding that it's finally all sinking in. Every day they make their beds, straighten their rooms and come down dressed. They clear their places at the table. They pick their chores for the day and almost always do them without being asked.

 

I think it takes a lot (!) of time, and maybe homeschooling will help with that because you will be with them more to remind them of what they need to do and when they need to do it.

[K&Rs Mom]

Does anyone have advice, strategies, books to refer me to?

 

I'm just starting a book by Ray Guarendi (hope I spelled that right!) called Discipline: the Gift that Lasts a Lifetime, and so far it's been great. Some strategies that may apply here:

 

Make a total change tomorrow - it's not too late until they move out, but if you work on one "issue" at a time you'll never get to the second issue.

 

Use "if/then" statements - If your pajamas are still on the floor when you come down for breakfast, then.... (here it would be breakfast waits until they're put away).

 

Talk less & act more - if you have trained them to not listen to your words, you'll have to rely on more active methods (which eventually results in less need for action once they realize you mean what you say).

 

HTH! IMO, if you wait until everything else is going perfectly before starting to homeschool, you'll never start. Jump in where you are, and you'll have that many more hours each day to get the discipline stuff worked out. :)

[Katrina]

I'm slightly laughing over here because I can be a lot like you, and my dd 13 sounds just like your kids! She can be SO forgetful it isn't funny.

 

Yes, my dd is a joy for everyone else to be around, everyone loves her, she isn't rebellious and is invited over to peoples houses a lot. From my point of view however, she can't remember what I tell her to save her own life. And when I find out she hasn't done something I told her to do, she gives me these huge puppy dog eyes and exclaims "But Mom! I forgot! I promise I'll do it next time..." blah, blah, blah. I've just had to come to the conclusion that unless I make her want to remember something, she wont. Now she has actual punishments when she forgets.

 

When your kids take out the monopoly board when they are supposed to be taking out the trash, take away the game for a week. If they play with their friend instead of doing their homework, then ground them from going outside for two days or something. I know it will be hard, (trust me, I know) but once you start setting up consequences for behaviors, they'll catch on. :)

[dhudson]

If you feel that you really want to home school then I think you should. I would use the summer as a training ground for obedience. I have found that schooling goes better (for me and for them) if I only have to say things once and move on.

 

I would do some pre-planning and make a doable plan of discipline. By discipline I mean training. We have to train our kids before we can expect them to behave a certain way. Make up whatever punishments and whatever rewards you feel is appropriate and what rules you feel that you can follow through with. Maybe the first one is, "I obey right away" and let them know that you will ask them once to do something and then if they do not follow through there will be an appropriate punishment, if they do follow through have an appropriate reward. I think you will need to surpervise the jobs for a week or two but then they should be able to do it on their own.

 

Start now and by next fall, you could be where you want to be with your kids!

Edited April 22, 2009 by dhudson

[Haiku]

but once you start setting up consequences for behaviors, they'll catch on. :)

 

Yep. My oldest daughter, who is 14, doesn't respond to talking about things. Action is the only thing she responds to. If the issue doesn't "hurt" her, she doesn't make a change. She kept doing her hair over our bathroom sink and leaving hair in the sink. It kept clogging the sink. A year's worth of nagging didn't change the problem. Finally (after far too long), we got smart and made her take the pipes apart, fish out the clog, and put the pipes back together. She has never done her hair in our bathroom again.

 

That is just one of many, many examples with my kids (and especially my oldest) responding to ACTION.

 

Tara

[Carol in Cal.]

but I don't hit and I try to make it easy to obey.

 

A couple things that I have tried at various times that might be helpful:

1. I have sometimes developed a checklist of a routine that I want followed. That sort of takes the onus off the parent--what does the chart say? as opposed to--what did I tell you to do? I don't really know why this works but it does.

2. I give instructions that include the final phrase "and then report to me." That way DD knows that she is supposed to come back and tell me what she did, and it often saves me from having to go find her.

 

I do find that when I don't have my finger on the pulse of the assignments they have a tendency not to happen, and even with an only child I can't always KEEP my finger on said pulse because I work fulltime as well as homeschooling, but I do tie free time/play date hosting availability to completed work and that really helps.

 

My sister is a teacher and tells me that children with ADD have a wrist device that buzzes their arm every 5 or 10 minutes--at that point they are supposed to stop, look around, consider what they should be doing, and do it. It kind of pulls their attention back to their work. When DD was younger I taught her to do this at doorways--whenever she went through a doorway she would look around, think about what she should be doing, and then move on. We have not continued with that, but it was helpful when we needed it.

 

Truly, your children don't sound like disasters. And it's a lot easier to enforce discipline when you are all at home during the best parts of their day, and when they realize that they can finish their schoolwork early enough to have a lot of fun. I would not judge their future cooperation based on how they are as schoolkids--they have to be so different in school than home that the transition is challenging.

[yellowperch]

Thank you all for reading and responding.

 

I have a confession to make. Lately--I think since I've been pregnant and DH has been abroad--I have been shouting at my kids if not once day then almost that often. It's dreadful. I do have a temper by nature, but have trained myself out of indulging it. I fully realize that shouting at children that it is counterproductive, a terrible example, horribly scary and otherwise a very poor idea. However, I also know that in the short term (this is a new "habit") it makes them stop and take notice (even as it makes the youngest one cry.)

 

I put this out there only as a way of stressing that as much as I realize a certain amount of forgetfulness and/or lack of cooperation is normal, our situation has become untenable. It's not good for me, and not for my kids.

 

So please keep the advice coming. I'd love more examples of ACTION. FWIW I'd read a few of the mainstream discipline books--how to talk so kids will listen and listen so kids will talk, positive discipline, etc. Where I fall down is internalizing and following through on techniques and strategies.

 

So I'll stop posting now, and read and learn. And thanks Drangons in the Flower Bed, for reminding me not to compare myself to others and to not let a simple comment in a conversation send me into a tailspin.

 

I do think my kids are great kids, but I also think we all deserve a more peaceful and cooperative home. I think we can get there.

[Carol in Cal.]

You want to be anticipating what could go wrong, not suspiciously, but in such a way so that you can be proactive.

 

Also, you have to project calm.

 

I hasten to say that I do not always do those things, but I do know that they work and try to do them for the most part.

 

So stop and think about your primary challenges. For instance, on the neighbor child being invited over before homework was finished (which I do think you handled well, BTW), you could gather your kids and say, "Yesterday the neighbor came over and we had to send him home because your work wasn't finished. That wasn't so good. From now on, I want you to come and ask me right before you invite him over, so that we can talk about whether or not you can have him visit right then." Then enforce that new rule--that no one comes over without your direct, immediate, prior consent. Maybe the new proclamation of the rule should include that if anyone comes over without your prior agreement, they will have to leave for the rest of the day no matter what. Even if their homework is done, they have to check with you first. Because let's face it, that would fix this current issue but also set the stage for some other limits that you will probably want to have in place before the baby comes.

 

I don't think that you have to be your children's adversary. You just have to really mean what you say, and show them that you do, but hopefully in a calm way.

Edited April 22, 2009 by Carol in Cal.

[Peela]

I think you and your kids are normal- so don't feel you are not- but it sounds like you would like to get a better handle on things.

May I suggest flylady.net?

If it weren't for flylady, I wouldn't now be homeschooling ( or married, for that matter, but that's another story). I found flylady, got my act together considerably, learned to love and take care of myself, and then I felt fit to homeschool. Flylady is not just for cleaning house, it's an attitudinal thing for life, and it is wonderful for mothers who feel not in control, chaotic, and who would rather be more organised and on top of things but just dont know how to get there. It helped me find reasonable expectations for both myself AND my kids. I could say, it helped me to grow up so that I could help my kids grow up. We are not perfect. I still yell sometimes. But a basically healthy household can handle a bit of yelling here and there.

And, I dont actually use the system any more, or rather, I use it very loosely, but it has done its healing work on me and I can manage without it. I declutter regularly, I deep clean a spot at a time regularly, and I get the kids to do the same, and clean and do their chores. Do they try and get out of them? Sure. Do I nag sometimes? Sure. But overall, there is no longer the feeling of life being out of control.

[Annie N]

Funny you should bring this up... I have been thinking the last couple of days that I need to make a checklist because every time I turn around the children are either on the computer or arguing about their turn on it!

 

I like flylady because it taught me about routines rather than schedules. Instead of having a set amount of time to do this and to do that, we just have a routine so that if (ha! When!!!!) things get off-schedule time-wise, we can still function. It's very nice not to be thrown off for the whole day because we over-slept.

 

So, what I am about to do is to say (to the children), you can't use the computer until you have done X, Y, and Z. And that will go on all day. Before we do schoolwork, you can't use the computer til you have done these things. After we finish with school work, you need to do these things before you can get on. And so on. I really don't want them to be on for more than about 1 hour total each day (apiece), so that will be regulated too.

 

Another thing that helped me a lot was fines. Very small fines that I wouldn't mind giving out at the drop of a hat. Because a lot of times I couldn't think of appropriate "logical consequences" for what my children dreamed up, and because I tended to not want to "punish" them for most of the little things they did (so I ended up not doing much until I got fed up and then I would scold them). But 1. those little fines add up! and 2. I am willing to give them out. So, one of them wanders off without finishing his chore, when they say gross things (bathroom humor–type stuff), etc., that would be a 20% of their allowance fine. (Of course, they have to have money for fines to work, but you could use anything you have going, computer or tv time, playtime, etc.)

 

Anyway, you sound a lot like me, and I am not consistent with using the above, and I am still homeschooling and my children are doing fine :) and definitely getting a better, altho more eclectic and erratic, education than the local school.