Back from the Cincy Convention!

[PeterPan]

Wanna hear what I found? :)

 

Well there was lots of good stuff, some new stuff, and of course SWB was AWESOME. She did 8 talks in 3 days plus a private luncheon with us, apparently a feat not to be recreated. But if you can imagine, next year both JW *and* SWB are coming to Cincy. You want to come, so start planning now! I've misplaced my booklet, so I don't have the dates handy, sorry.

 

And now for some new stuff!

 

Holy Cow science has hilarious topic kits for science. The glowing bones kit looked fun, if a little young.

 

http://burnsfamilystudios.com/movies/pendragon/ This movie looks exciting. I ate dinner with the family that produced it, or rather I ate while the mother took care of the baby for me, haha... They are lovely people, and while I haven't watched the dvd yet, it looks well done. They're a VERY nice family. :)

 

http://www.kitbook.com You've probably seen these in your RR searches. They have topical kits that my dd thought looked good.

 

Cornerstone Curriculum/Quine--World Views of the Western World (WVWW) and Starting Points--I had wanted to look this over to compare it to Omnibus. It's extremely similar and yet totally different, if that makes sense. WVWW seems focused on the heart. SP can be done as early as 7th grade and WVWW is the follow-up, more high school level, course. Again, very nice people, felt a commonality with them.

 

Omnibus--I got to see it!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Wow, what a beautiful book. Wasn't nearly so blown away as I thought I would be based on what people had said. It now makes sense to me how you can use part and not all (say all secondary readings, none of the primary, etc.). It's nowhere near WVWW as for as philosophical probing, but they're just totally different. Unfortunately, I don't see how you can do *both*. :(

 

Circe/Lost Tools of Writing--Ok, this is the very FIRST thing I went to see at the vendor hall! Kern was not there, so the kind man repping for them (whose wife does all the teaching, haha), was slogging through, trying to explain. It's one of those things that makes you blink a lot till you get how it's set up, so I can totally understand how people can buy it and have it just sit on their shelves. It seems to walk you through steps of building a persuasive essay (the level 1 course) and have pre-grammar, grammar, dialetic, and rhetoric level tasks (think TOG almost) for each step. So in that sense it crosses over the ages. On the other hand, why would you BOTHER to teach a 3rd grader how to write a persuasive essay, kwim? Totally contradictory to the WTM approach.

 

That brings me around to SWB's sessions. I had heard part of the Writing Without Fear cd (before I loaned it out and didn't get it back), read my WTM as well as I could, etc., but her new talks really helped pull things together for me. Hurray for Susan!! She broke it all down bit by bit into 3 hours, took questions, it was just fantastic. I finally got that sense of the FLOW and where it's going, why we're doing what we're doing. She discussed options for high school level rhetoric (persuasive writing): IEW (their Rhetoric book, etc.), CW, Cochrane, and of course the method outlined in WTM. I think you could add LtoW as those levels develop. I pretty much took from it that all roads will get you to Rome on this and that it's pretty much a matter of which is going to be most user-friendly to you. They aren't all necessarily EQUAL, but they all have their good points and will get you there. But her ultimate point was that you're doing, in those courses, pre-digested Aristotle, where you could just use the method of study of Aristotle, etc. outlined in WTM and just get that info straight from the horse's mouth. Given how cumbersome some of those methods are (CW, etc., not to tip a sacred cow), it surprises me we don't have more discussion of that, kwim? I think we ought to be at least OPEN to the thought that we could get there just fine without CW, etc. And listening to her talks after looking at LToW, I'm really not SURE LToW is necessary either. Like I said, I was really impressed with the simplicity and potential of the WTM approach. Simple is good!

 

More goodies? Well, a vendor had CWP in stock, hehe...

 

http://www.lhsitetours.homestead.com These people do Little House trips.

 

http://www.scienceshepherd.com New science written by a doctor. They have two books out currently.

 

Saw the Total Language Plus guides and thought they were interesting, if a bit cumbersome.

 

A man was there repping for Amaco clay. They make quite a few products we hadn't tried before. He gave dd a tub of the air-hardening porcelain clay to try, and it was very cool, dries very quickly and takes lots of detail.

 

The luncheon with SWB and the board was wonderful, tons of fun. Thanks to Sandy for organizing it! :)

 

Got to gab with Tara the Liberator, Strider, Sandy, LadyDusk, TeaTotaler (who really drinks tea!), ELaurie, and more. What fun!

[ciyates]

Loved the convention this year! Spent way to much money as usual. I too was interested in Cornerstone but by the time I go to actually look at the material I was so overloaded I could not digest it all.

[rafiki]

.

[BlessedMom]

Sounds like you had a wonderful time!

 

Thank you for sharing everything with us.

[wyomom]

Thanks for all the great info!! As I was reading about the writing curriculum, I noticed writing strands wasn't part of the list. I am wondering where that would fit in with the comparison. Also, has it been taken out of the WTM recommendation? I was just wondering because after trying WS in 2nd and 3rd grades, then switching to K12, on to writers apprentice and wordsmith and now finally BACK to WS, my dd actually is clicking with this program and loves it alot. I too am finally figuring out the method used after seeing how other programs are set up and like it better. My older dd's 7th and 5th grades are using this with no tears this year so I am really thinking we found a program that clicks with them throughout 12 grade hopefully unless my older dd goes through the books faster and then we will need to find something for her 11th and 12th grade years.

 

My ds 1st grade is doing well working through WWE level 1 and as soon as he is through all those levels I am thinking we will just put him right into WS too.

 

How would this method compare to the other writing curriculums you mentioned? Will this prepare them well enough or should I be looking into some of those others?

 

Just wondering.

 

Thanks!!

[TengoFive]

I was there too on Friday! I loved listening to SWB and Jay Wile. I was excited to talk to the folks t Classical Academic Press and see the sample of Song School Greek.

[PeterPan]

I'm not sure what the updated WTM says about WS. Did anyone pick up the new edition of WTM? It was in the booth, hot off the presses... It's thicker than my copy and has thinner pages to boot. There were several things during her talks that SWB said were new to this edition, enough that I plan to buy it pretty soon.

 

They had the beta version of the new First Form (FF) latin from Memoria Press to see. It's $49 (?) and has a rough tm and student book. The lady said the final version would be out in the fall and would have color in the text like LC and have DVD's available. I forget who she named as the dvd teacher, but apparently he teaches online right now a henle class and is pretty funny! Funny is good.

[PeterPan]

In years past I've gone and done the whole hall very systematically. This year I did something different, going in and hitting just the one or two things I really wanted to see, then going back through and doing aisles as I had time. That way I hit the most important booths while I was still fresh. Now that could backfire though, like when you hit the ebaru violin booth late in the day when your willpower is low and your piano-hating, violin lesson-craving dd is most whining about how a violin and THIS PARTICULAR violin series is the answer to all her problems... But I digress. Yes, I hit Circe, Cornerstone, and MP first. Had to make sure I saw those. Then I did the rest of the hall about 3 times over. It was fun, but after so many years there's actually not that much new. What's interesting though is seeing things in a new way, things you know about, forget, and then realize are just what you need at the moment!

[ladydusk]

Hey, OhE. That was a great rundown. I did buy the new WTM, I was so excited that they had it there ... woo-hoo!

 

I went systematically up and down the aisles. I knew where I wanted to stop and spend time (and, generally, $$) I met Angela in Ohio at the Doorposts table (besides the wonderful lunch group!) I spent a good deal of time at Math on the Level, reading through the "teacher manual." It looks great, I would love to use it, I don't think I could keep on top of it.

 

My exciting (I hope) find of the conference was Bright Ideas Press' new Composer Study. Right now, it is CD-Rom and coming Mothers' Day it will be a print book.

 

SWB was impressive with her rigorous schedule, wit, and grace under pressure.

 

It was a great conference, and now my brain hurts.

[Sandy in Indy]

So, OHElizabeth, is there a violin in your home tonight??????

 

It was great to see you all. Elizabeth, it was wonderful to meet your children. It's wonderful to meet you on the boards and then get to meet you IRL.

 

Did anyone see Presidential Penmanship at The Book Peddler's table? Yum! Lots of copywork quotes from presidents and other statesmen. I don't know how ds will like it, but **I** certainly will enjoy it.

 

I can't say I bought any curriculum surprises after hearing speakers. I'd planned on MOH purchases and hoped to find some R&S books used (so we could write in them). Actually most of what I picked up is extras like puzzle books. (DS loves mazes.) Of course, we had to stop at Miller Paper and Rainbow Resource for a **hmmm** few things.

 

I do feel more confident about writing after hearing SWB and WWE makes more sense to me now that I can see what it's leading to.

 

I splurged on a tote with a pic of Mt. Rushmore that says something about homeschoolers can end up anywhere. And my ds's favorite: his consolation prize for being left with big brother for 2 days--the LED light saber! (Big brother got one, too. He might be 18 but he still loves Star Wars.)

[PeterPan]

Oooo, I'm so glad he liked the light saber!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Nope, didn't spring for the violin set. Decided we just weren't confident enough to make such an impulsive decision. We've intended to get her violin lessons at some point, but we're not sure that particular way was the way to go. Might have been fine, or might have been a very expensive ($400!) mistake that we couldn't afford to make. Besides, once she told me the violins are made in China, I was concerned. Besides the geopolitical issues and thoughts of whether you want to support MORE stuff made in China, I know from buying our piano that quality of instruments made in China really varies. You can have stuff that seems really good (or at least reasonable) up-front and doesn't hold its quality over the long-term. We just felt like we needed to take our time. They sure make it sound like a deal when you're there, but $400 is a LOT of money!

 

Gotta go. Baby wants to read a book! I didn't take any because I assumed a homeschool convention would have something for babies, oops! He's been crazy missing them, found one, and is anxious to read!

[Tenaj]

Did anyone see Presidential Penmanship at The Book Peddler's table? Yum! Lots of copywork quotes from presidents and other statesmen. I don't know how ds will like it, but **I** certainly will enjoy it.

 

I bought this! I had never seen it before but was looking for something simple to use to teach reinforce good handwriting with my first grader, third grader and seventh grader next year. I couldn't believe that I could get all of that for one price on one disk. That was the one thing I bought that really wasn't on my original shopping list.

[siloam]

Glad you had such a good time!!

 

Heather

[Angel]

I found...JanOH :lol: Actually, she found me and my pink suitcase! Nice to meet you Jan! Didn't meet anyone else. I was there from 10:30 to 8:30. Talk about sore feet :D

[Mommy7]

OhElizabeth, it sounds like you found some great stuff! I do LOOOOVE to research curriculum! Speaking of which, what did you think about Starting Points????

[Rhondabee]

She discussed options for high school level rhetoric (persuasive writing): IEW (their Rhetoric book, etc.), CW, Cochrane, and of course the method outlined in WTM. I think you could add LtoW as those levels develop. I pretty much took from it that all roads will get you to Rome on this and that it's pretty much a matter of which is going to be most user-friendly to you. They aren't all necessarily EQUAL, but they all have their good points and will get you there. But her ultimate point was that you're doing, in those courses, pre-digested Aristotle, where you could just use the method of study of Aristotle, etc. outlined in WTM and just get that info straight from the horse's mouth. Given how cumbersome some of those methods are (CW, etc., not to tip a sacred cow), it surprises me we don't have more discussion of that, kwim? I think we ought to be at least OPEN to the thought that we could get there just fine without CW, etc. And listening to her talks after looking at LToW, I'm really not SURE LToW is necessary either. Like I said, I was really impressed with the simplicity and potential of the WTM approach. Simple is good!

 

Ok - so let's discuss! Actually, you discuss, and I'll listen - LOL!!!! I'm trying to plan for 9th grade, and given her blog entry here:

 

http://www.susanwisebauer.com/blog/the-raving-writer/using-the-exercises-of-classical-rhetoric-in-high-school/

 

and the fact that IEW is now listed in the (sample) rhetoric chapter, I'm thinking something's changing. I've noticed that the original WTM recommended straight Aristotle, but not the 2nd edition. (It did recommend the Memoria Press Rhetoric for certain students, and I think it is a study of Aristotle.)

 

So, rather than ask you specific questions, could you just elaborate a bit more on this? (Specifically, what is the "WTM Method" now?)

 

Thanks, OHElizabeth!

[PeterPan]

I picked up at the PHP/SWB table the two books you mentioned (art of argument, new oxford guide to writing), so I guess they're still recommended. Although helpful, I don't see how they become a writing curriculum. Here's the deal though. I missed the first 15 minutes of that high school talk, the part where she summarized her approach, so she was already on to talking about the other options. As I had just read the recs in my original version WTM, I didn't sweat it, figuring I'd just look at the handouts whenever she gets them posted online. I just checked and didn't see them. Maybe I looked in the wrong place? And I didn't pick up the new, hot off the presses WTM, because I was just plain being cheap. They have it, which means it will be amazon soon I guess. You could get it and see what it says. I know she said she expanded some chapters specifically on that high school thing.

 

I don't follow her blog much, so I wasn't aware of her currently recommending D'Angelo. That's kind of a rough pill for most people to swallow, don't you think? I mean does that actually turn into useable, everyday lesson plans?? Some people like winging it, learning and teaching on the fly, and some just want open and go. And that's what I came away from her talk thinking, that we all sweat what is "best" too hard rather than just picking something and doing it.

 

On the MP/Cothrane rhetoric program, she said it was good but leaned more toward the logic rather than writing connections (if I was understanding her correctly). She seemed to like the IEW Rhetoric stuff well enough, though of course with her usual caveat to skip the style instruction. And of course she mentioned CW. You know, conspicuously missing from that list WAS the option of CC/D'Angelo. Maybe she mentioned that during the 15 minutes I missed? It was such a fast 3 days, and I really do like to eat occassionally. I just couldn't make everything. :)

 

Mommy7--I think Starting Points will be fine. I was having a blurred, deer in the headlights feeling toward it, but I think that was *me*, not the curriculum. Philosophically the people seem sound, and they're aiming toward heart analysis, not just superficial knowledge acquisition. They do seem to think it should take as much time as Omnibus, though I don't know if that's true. I've also gotten the impression people trim it down. It had a lot of white space on the pages, places to write things, and I KNOW I've seen somebody (Cynthia in OK?) saying she modified how they used it. There might be ways to cut down the writing and keep it reasonable. Have you seen the Uncle Eric books? I had heard of them and just had a chance to glance at one, nothing more. It might be you could punt a year by finding some commentary books like that. America's Providential History would be a good one. The Gary DeMar books would work. Anything with some commentary injected so you wouldn't have to. Just a thought. But sorry, I didn't look at it further. It's two years off for us and I just sat there staring at it. I was probably really tired at that point. I don't know if it didn't click because it's not what I need, or if it needs tweaking to fit us, not sure. Are you going to be able to get to a convention to see these things for yourself?

[PeterPan]

Rhonda, check this out. http://www.susanwisebauer.com/blog/the-raving-writer/a-writers-education/#comments

[Rhondabee]

I picked up at the PHP/SWB table the two books you mentioned (art of argument, new oxford guide to writing), so I guess they're still recommended. Although helpful, I don't see how they become a writing curriculum. Here's the deal though. I missed the first 15 minutes of that high school talk, the part where she summarized her approach, so she was already on to talking about the other options. As I had just read the recs in my original version WTM, I didn't sweat it, figuring I'd just look at the handouts whenever she gets them posted online. I just checked and didn't see them. Maybe I looked in the wrong place? And I didn't pick up the new, hot off the presses WTM, because I was just plain being cheap. They have it, which means it will be amazon soon I guess. You could get it and see what it says. I know she said she expanded some chapters specifically on that high school thing.

 

I don't follow her blog much, so I wasn't aware of her currently recommending D'Angelo. That's kind of a rough pill for most people to swallow, don't you think? I mean does that actually turn into useable, everyday lesson plans?? Some people like winging it, learning and teaching on the fly, and some just want open and go. And that's what I came away from her talk thinking, that we all sweat what is "best" too hard rather than just picking something and doing it.

 

 

 

 

Oh, a tough pill to swallow, indeed! I have already purchased most of the recommended books in the 2nd edition, and will probably just follow that. (Why did I do this when I was so determined to wait until the new edition?!)

 

Really, I am afraid that Art of Agument and the Oxford will devolve into just reading the text. It is a bit like the blind leading the blind! I worry that I will be short-changing my kids, but OTOH, I know they will only fall through the cracks at public school - making A's and B's, but not really learning (BTDT).

 

I am a bit sad to see that so much is changing! When I saw her last summer, I sat stunned and speechless - really feeling like I should just give up. But, if I can find something that has an answer key - that will be good, too!

 

I have the new edition pre-ordered at Amazon. That is my present to me for skipping the weekend in VA (sniff, sniff!). I'm just dying waiting for it to get here. Thanks for the pre-view!

[PeterPan]

Rhonda, I've been reading the New Oxford writing book some more today, and I think even just reading it is going to get your dc farther than they would have been otherwise. It's really quite well put together. I started at the back, in the punctuation, and he has outlines and examples for each topic. It might be easier to study and apply to their writing than I anticipated. Really, I think the answer to these things is for us to study ahead, not to hope some magical curriculum is going to come along and solve it. But if you want that magic curriculum, have you looked at the IEW Rhetoric program? I found a post on the high school board by a lady saying she used it (or was it Elegant Essay?) plus a couple other books. One of them was Writing with Clarity and Style, and the other was a Walch book. I got that first one on amazon inexpensively, and it looks good. I plan to order the Walch book with my next Rainbow order. I'm just basically trying to LEARN now, as I figure the more I learn, the easier it will be to teach these things.

 

Here, I found the post I was thinking of. It's #8 in this thread. http://www.welltrainedmind.com/forums/showthread.php?p=885464

[Leanna Tomlinson]

 

 

 

On the MP/Cothrane rhetoric program, she said it was good but leaned more toward the logic rather than writing connections (if I was understanding her correctly). She seemed to like the IEW Rhetoric stuff well enough, though of course with her usual caveat to skip the style instruction. And of course she mentioned CW. You know, conspicuously missing from that list WAS the option of CC/D'Angelo. Maybe she mentioned that during the 15 minutes I missed? It was such a fast 3 days, and I really do like to eat occassionally. I just couldn't make everything. :)

 

 

 

Hi Elizabeth,

I was at the convention and she did mention the D'Angelo book in a list of 4 books for Rhetoric self study. It's on the first page of my notes, so maybe it was in the 15 minutes you missed. :) I posted my notes on another thread today, but couldn't decipher my writing for the author of Composition in the Classical Tradition. When I saw your post, my handwriting suddenly became readable and I was able to decipher D'Angelo's name in my notes.:) Rulebook for Arguments by Weston was the first book on the list. She also listed two more for older students. My notes are sketchy but I think they read New Oxford Guide by T. Kane, and Classical Rhetoric for the Modern Student by E. Corbet. I was sitting in the back half of the room and had a hard time reading the power point presentation.:tongue_smilie:

[PeterPan]

Ooo good, thanks for sharing that!

[Rhondabee]

I'm seriously considering IEW for our writing program for next year. Both because the sample rhetoric chapter in the new WTM listed IEW as a resource, and because I think there is much to be gained from a multitude of counselors/teachers. It seems like Mr. Pudewa (sp?) is a very talented man, and it also seems like it would be nice for my ds to have some male teachers. And, timewise, I have to admit that my dd really gets slim pickin's, and there are days I think I'm not pushing either of the boys as hard as they need to be pushed. (Actually, that's most days!)

 

Definitely take the time now while you can to study ahead! I've read the books, but sometimes I have to live with something for awhile. Or, at least sometimes *I* have to have a vision of how to teach it - not just for me, but how to help my ds learn it. You know, I can sit and do 20 pages of Henle I at a time (and enjoy it!), but he can't. And, it's not just knowing the right answers, but knowing how to help him get to the right answers on his own. There is a finesse that comes from *really* knowing something as opposed to just understanding it, I think. And, I'm beginning to see why SWB recommends outsourcing anything that's not your passion (for high school). Unfortunately, I think that might be just about everything for me - LOL!

 

Too funny, great minds must think alike - I think I have that post saved somewhere! (Other people collect curriculum, I collect posts - LOL!)

 

Thanks, OhElizabeth!

[Colleen in NS]

I was at the convention and she did mention the D'Angelo book in a list of 4 books for Rhetoric self study.

 

The other three books you mentioned are mentioned in the sample chapter on rhetoric for the new WTM, but the d'Angelo book isn't. Yet SWB posted about it on her blog last summer, but I couldn't figure out how she recommended using it. Did she talk about that at all? About how to incorporate it with the other three books? (I could wait til next week and find out myself, but curiosity is getting to me....) I wonder if you just incorporate it somehow when you get to the progym section of Corbett's book...

[Leanna Tomlinson]

The other three books you mentioned are mentioned in the sample chapter on rhetoric for the new WTM, but the d'Angelo book isn't. Yet SWB posted about it on her blog last summer, but I couldn't figure out how she recommended using it. Did she talk about that at all? About how to incorporate it with the other three books? (I could wait til next week and find out myself, but curiosity is getting to me....) I wonder if you just incorporate it somehow when you get to the progym section of Corbett's book...

 

Here's what I have; I am ashamed to say there are some notes in my own writing that I can't read, and next year I will sit closer since my eyes seem to be getting old.:tongue_smilie:

 

Rhetoric- Self-Study 3-5hours/week.

Rulebook for Arguments by Weston was listed first, so I would assume that this is the place to start.

Comp. in the Classical Tradition by D'Angelo was next. She specifically mentioned that the text was great, but the writing examples contained in the book are horrible. Do not use the examples in the book as models for your student's writing.

New Oxford Guide by Kane was next. She listed this for 11th and 12th grades.

Classical Rhetoric for the Modern Student by E. Corbet was last. SWB said this book is for those students seeking a challenge. It is not for everyone.

 

From what I gathered, your student just works through one book at a time starting with the Weston book. Some students who are gifted in this area may make it through all four books, while others may just need to work through the first two or three.

 

The three alternatives listed for those who want a program:

IEW-Classical Rhetoric - ignore the parts on style

Classical Writing classicalwriting.com

Memoria Press - Classical Writing with Aristotle - this one is more focused on speech and debate and less on writing.

 

Now you'll be ready with lots of good questions at the workshops this weekend. Have a great time, and let us know what you learn.:)

 

Leanna

[Susan Wise Bauer]

I'll try to clarify. :001_smile:

 

The rhetoric recommendations are exactly the same in both editions. In 2005 TWTM, they are on pages 464-469. In 2009 TWTM, they are on pages 468-473. The procedure is also the same: read a section in the text, outline it, and then provide an example (either by writing one or by locating one). Martin Cothran's Classical Rhetoric is suggested as further advanced study.

 

What's new in 2009 TWTM is a new section called "Alternatives." This points out that instead of doing the rhetoric "self study" described, you could use the IEW Classical Rhetoric course or Classical Writing. I added the section because ten years of corresponding with parents has made very clear that the self-study in rhetoric is very difficult for many, particularly those who have writing deficiencies to make up.

 

What's different in the workshop I do is the recommendation of the D'Angelo text. TWTM recommends, for rhetoric self study:

 

Weston

Kane

Corbett

 

In my workshop I recommend:

 

Weston

D'Angelo

Kane

Corbett

 

I think that this latter sequence is a little more gentle, because D'Angelo is simpler than Kane, and with the first sequence most students are going to encounter Corbett in eleventh grade--and it's a tough (although v. good) book.

 

Why the difference: I like the D'Angelo explanations, but I just CAN'T bring myself to recommend it, in print, in a book that I won't have the chance to revise for another five years. The examples are just SO HORRIBLE. I keep hoping I'll find something else to insert into that second space.

 

So: not much has changed in the 2009 edition. (I'm kind of wondering why the reaction that everything is so different?)

 

One last thing about high school writing: I don't want anyone to feel stunned and speechless. If that's your reaction to the rhetoric self-study, you should DEFINITELY go with one of the alternatives. The rhetoric self-study works if 1) you've been through all the previous stages, and 2) the student is no longer struggling with writing.

 

Hmm....I think that was everything.

 

SWB

[PeterPan]

So is the progym actually NECESSARY and useful, or is it happily replaced by a sequence of Weston, Kane, Corbett, sans D'Angelo? For whom is the progym ideal and for whom is it unnecessary? (blunt answer appreciated) And what happened to Aristotle?

 

I'm really enjoying Kane, btw. :)

[Susan Wise Bauer]

The skills covered in Kane and Corbett ARE the skills of the "progym"; they just aren't labelled by that name, and they're formatted differently than the exercises in CW.

 

SWB

[ekarl2]

Got to gab with Tara the Liberator, Strider, Sandy, LadyDusk, TeaTotaler (who really drinks tea!), ELaurie, and more. What fun!

 

(sniff, sniff) My feelings are hurt! You talked to me, too, OhElizabeth! You even nursed your beautiful son at my booth and I researched this board about that violin program on my laptop! (sniff [wipe nose], sniff)

 

That's okay, I'll get over it. It really is so neat to meet people from these boards. Isn't the internet COOL???

 

Great meeting you, Elizabeth. I see from your post you decided to wait on the violin. Your dd is very sweet; say hello to her for me.

 

Blessings, all!

[Rhondabee]

If I may be so bold,

 

Colleen in NS pointed out to me in a private message that (somewhere) it says to skip the writing assignments that are similar to the rhetoric assignments. And, I think that's correct because it does sound very familiar.

 

So, if I do R&S-9 next year, can I just sub in the rhetoric writing for the writing in R&S? (The problem being we flubbed Introductory Logic this year, and will try again with Traditional in 9th.)

 

Or, do I need to just continue the grammar & writing in R&S-9 (along with TL I & II) for 9th grade, and then move into R&S-10 (along with Rhetoric)?

 

I will still look at the IEW long and hard - I guess I could do that alongside R&S or Abeka for grammar, and we'll need to do that if we go with IEW for Rhetoric later. I just really hate to delay getting started with Rhetoric, because all along I have put the progym aside knowing it was coming in high school. I've even thought of using Cindy Marsch's classes - hopefully as just a part of the year, studying a little bit of the progym each year (following the schedule on your blog).

 

To be fair, I was stunned and speechless not at the rhetoric, per se (though, I defnitely feel the need for some hand-holding in that area!). But, just the totality of high school. And, knowing that my Bachelors in Piano Performance and Music Ed aren't really going to help me out - LOL! There are so many talented, intelligent ladies on the board, and they make high school sound so easy for mom to do it all herself, even with very high standards (AP's, etc.).

 

I really think your talk in Atlanta was much more realistic in terms of expectations than some of the schedules I've seen here. But, it is frightening to say, "I'm not really enough anymore," and begin looking for alternatives. And, it's hard to let go of the control I've had up to this point! But, there really are so many good resources out there, and I am beginning to see a glimmer of actual free time in my future - LOL!

 

*****

ETA: I guess I was expecting a "put your nose to the grindstone, women, and get to work!" talk rather than a loosen up and quit worrying so much talk. And, I guess I thrive on hard work. I know that I have told people here on the boards that when I first started WTM in 5th grade, I was so worried about doing everything "right"; then, when my 2nd ds entered 5th (this year), I noticed that - oh, it's ok if we start at 3 sentences for a history narration in 5th grade. It was there all the time, I just didn't "get it". Sorry! My foul.

*****

 

Honestly, I think your new book for history will make my life with a 9th grader much easier! But, I have never succeeded in inspiring my kids to research and dig and delve for themselves. Granted, they are very phlegmatic, and probably all my grand plans of library trips spent reading to my dd while my ds's read and research are for naught. But, that is what I picture when I picture "doing" the WTM, does that make sense? Maybe that is my misperception.

 

Thanks, Susan, for everything you do! Sometimes it takes me a while to digest everything, and I do appreciate your patience!

Edited April 23, 2009 by Rhondabee

[noah&emmasmommy]

I absolutely loved the convention! I was very encouraged and came away with a lot of wonderful insight about home schooling my kids, and also confirmation of why I am home schooling them. I even ran into some friends I hadn't seen in years! I loved David Hazell, his speaking was so encouraging for me. I also enjoyed Melinda Boring, who had some really great tips I'd like to try with my son. All in all, another successfull year and can't wait to go next year!:001_smile:

[PeterPan]

Rhonda, it could be worse: you could have a bachelor's in missions. Means all I know how to do is talk. :) Oh, and I can learn a foreign language, still not the most useful, haha.

 

Hi Erin! Nope, we didn't go with the Ebaru violin. We weren't confident, and it was $$. I'm looking into some other, local options for her.

 

SWB-Thanks for clarifying that! I've been looking for something to release me from the guilt of not doing/liking CW, and I think your progression is it. BTW, I think I'm going to have my dd outline bios this year, so we'll see how that goes. It was such a helpful idea, since our history spine isn't conducive to outlining. Thanks! :)

[Colleen in NS]

From what I gathered, your student just works through one book at a time starting with the Weston book. Some students who are gifted in this area may make it through all four books, while others may just need to work through the first two or three.

 

I think that this latter sequence is a little more gentle, because D'Angelo is simpler than Kane, and with the first sequence most students are going to encounter Corbett in eleventh grade--and it's a tough (although v. good) book.

 

Why the difference: I like the D'Angelo explanations, but I just CAN'T bring myself to recommend it, in print, in a book that I won't have the chance to revise for another five years.

 

Thanks, both of you, this makes sense. I feel like I'm getting a better framework in my mind so I can absorb more of the info. at the workshops next week.

 

There are so many talented, intelligent ladies on the board

 

Rhonda, YOU are one of them, in my eyes. You have helped me so much to understand things in TWTM about thinking/writing. And I think no matter what road you decide to take, it will be one that you have thought out thoroughly beforehand and have good reasons for. You simply rock!:D

Edited April 23, 2009 by Colleen in NS

[Rhondabee]

No! Don't say that! The last thing I (with my Bachelor's in Music) and my dh (with his Bachelor's in Musical Theatre) need is a ds with a Bachelor's in Missions that doesn't have a job. *Somebody's* gotta retire us!! LOL - j/k. (Well.....kinda'.)

 

While I have you here, would it be worthwhile to do a little Greek in high school? I'm pretty set on continuing Latin at half-pace while doing Rosetta Stone for a modern language. But, the Greek is nagging at me. Wouldn't that be more helpful for Bible study?

[Rhondabee]

Rhonda, YOU are one of them, in my eyes. You have helped me so much to understand things in TWTM about thinking/writing. And I think no matter what road you decide to take, it will be one that you have thought out thoroughly beforehand and have good reasons for. You simply rock!:D

 

Can I frame that?

 

:blushing:

 

If only I wouldn't forget those thoroughly thought out reasons every time a new wind blows! (sigh!)

 

Thanks, Colleen! You're the best!

[Colleen in NS]

Can I frame that?

 

Yes! Do whatever you need to do to stay encouraged!

 

If only I wouldn't forget those thoroughly thought out reasons every time a new wind blows! (sigh!)

 

I know what you mean. That's why I've started 1. keeping posts (like you said you did) 2. writing things down in relevant places (in my books, in my notes on how to teach various things), esp. those lightbulb moments. Then I can go back and tell myself, "THIS is why you are going in this direction, Colleen. Remember?"

[Susan Wise Bauer]

Can we just sub in the rhetoric writing for the writing in R&S? (The problem being we flubbed Introductory Logic this year, and will try again with Traditional in 9th.)

 

Yes, absolutely. The rhetoric writing replaces the R&S writing and is superior as a composition course.

 

And I wouldn't get too hung up on the logic. Yes, it would be great if you can get through Traditional Logic, and yes, it's a good foundation for rhetoric school writing, but (particularly if you go through Weston) you CAN manage without it.

 

SWB

[Rhondabee]

Thank you! Thank you! Thank you! Just exactly what I needed to know (and was hoping to hear!).

[Melissa in CA]

Is SWB still recommending Introductory Logic for 7th? I seem to recall reading somewhere that she was recommending something different...but I can't seem to find the thread/post. :confused:

[Mommy7]

OhElizabeth, I don't think I'll make a convention this year. I thought the samples looked great online. I emailed the author and asked him what he thought of using Starting Points on a 2 yr. plan. He said he thought it was a great idea and his wife did that very thing. I am thinking I will use it as our Bible time because it has a great bible study at the beginning of it. That 30 minute slot is all I will devote to it. If it takes 3 years, it's fine with me, but I think it will be a great worldview course. I'm going to hold off on Frankenstein, etc. until the next year at least. We'll concentrate on Chronicles of Narnia and the two movies. I'll have to see what the writing requirements are. If that needs tweaking, then tweak I will. ;)

 

Thanks for all the great info.!!!!