narration question

[razorbackmama]

In all my reading on narration (which granted, hasn't been a TON, but I have read up on it), I haven't seen this addressed, so I'm hoping someone can help me!

 

Reading comprehension can be an issue for one of my dc in particular. That's all fine and good, but whenever he's telling me about something, rather than say things like, "I don't know," he pretty much makes up this whole new story, based on what he THOUGHT he read (but didn't actually read). If I simply have him narrate to me the things he read, how can I know if he actually understood what he's readng, unless I have actually read the book myself?

 

He has a smidge of some sort of processing issue, I think - he even has trouble comprehending some movies and even what goes on in real life at times. So it's not specifically a reading issue.

 

Should I stick with a reading curriculum for him, one that has questions/answers, so that I can make sure he's actually reading the material correctly? Or is there a way to overcome this with narration?

[abbeyej]

Well, for school narrations, I *would* stick to stuff that *you* have read too and can actually *discuss* with him. So if he starts to veer off, you can question him on it, ask him to find the answer in the text, challenge him...

 

I wouldn't ask him to "narrate" sections of books he's reading on his own as a school exercise. Keep narrations to assigned works that you read too. He doesn't have to narrate from *everything* though.

 

Because of his challenges, I would probably encourage using shorter sections (things he reads to himself and things you read aloud to him) rather than longer selections or whole books right now. Even just a couple of paragraphs at a time. Read, ask, discuss, challenge him on mistakes... Ask him *why* he says something or other happened, and if he can find it in the text and show you...

[MSNative]

I would def. suggest that you start small. Have him read a paragraph and then narrate that back to you. Once he gets good at that, move on to a page and so on. If that isn't working for him, you can read together and then have him narrate to you. This may help you pinpoint if the issue is a reading issue, a focusing issue or something else all together.

 

You may want to start with a book that you can both read and enjoy even if it isn't necessarily a school book. Something that may capture his attention. That again could help you figure out what exactly is going on.

Good luck!! :)

[Caroline4kids]

How old is your child? Some younger children tend to embellish quite a bit. If he is older I would use very small sections--maybe a paragraph or two and work on accuracy. Then move to bigger, more complicated material. Smaller chunks help to let the child get their mind around what is going on. Over time he will be able to do much more.

:001_smile:

 

Narration will really help in the long run, but it is a skill to be worked up to. Hang in there.

[razorbackmama]

He is 12. I know it's not embellishment - he just can't follow the plot. Like I said, he struggles with following the plot of his own life or conversations around him from time to time. (And to watch a movie with him is torture LOLOLOL!!!!!)

 

So are y'all saying that I should read the books I have him read for reading with him, and have him narrate every paragraph or two? We are working through WWE, so I'm hoping that will help as well.

 

I don't ask him to narrate the books he reads on his own apart from "so what is your book about?" Of course he rarely reads on his own, so....:tongue_smilie:

 

We used to use a reading curriculum, but I wanted to just start using living books with narration instead. But this has totally been the sticking point - I can't figure out how to do it!

[elw_miller]

In all my reading on narration (which granted, hasn't been a TON, but I have read up on it), I haven't seen this addressed, so I'm hoping someone can help me!

 

Reading comprehension can be an issue for one of my dc in particular. That's all fine and good, but whenever he's telling me about something, rather than say things like, "I don't know," he pretty much makes up this whole new story, based on what he THOUGHT he read (but didn't actually read). If I simply have him narrate to me the things he read, how can I know if he actually understood what he's readng, unless I have actually read the book myself?

 

He has a smidge of some sort of processing issue, I think - he even has trouble comprehending some movies and even what goes on in real life at times. So it's not specifically a reading issue.

 

Should I stick with a reading curriculum for him, one that has questions/answers, so that I can make sure he's actually reading the material correctly? Or is there a way to overcome this with narration?

 

That sounds very creative to me. :) To keep him on track, maybe he could write notes as he reads or make little ticks in the margin when he gets to a spot he doesn't quite understand.

 

Is he in the habit of asking himself questions about a text or "talking/thinking to himself" as he reads? Things like, what does this word mean? Can I figure it out by the context? I'm not sure what the sentence is saying; I'd better reread it. I'm lost; I think I need to back up a few pages and reread this section.

 

Does he seem to read very quickly? He may be unintentionally skimming rather than reading for content, and thus misses key information.

 

Is he doing narration after he reads a whole book? If so, maybe break it down into chapters, segments of chapters, or even paragraphs if need be. After breaking it down into smaller narrations maybe at the end of the book he could then do a final, overall narration.

 

He may also be the kind of kid who needs to write down his narration or to outline it to help him organize his thoughts and to make sure he understands something before he retells the story to someone else.

 

You may have to follow along with him for a little while to get him on track to reading with attention. For instance, as you read aloud the same thing he reads silently verbalize your thought processes--the questions you might ask of the text, etc. You can also check his comprehension as you read with him (or at least have read the chapters/books so you're familiar with the info), weaning him from your assistance, until you think his comprehension has made improvements.

 

I haven't actually started doing official narrations with my daughter yet, but I did teach 8th grade English. This is what I'd do with my students if they seemed to be struggling with a text.

 

Good luck!

[elw_miller]

So are y'all saying that I should read the books I have him read for reading with him, and have him narrate every paragraph or two? We are working through WWE, so I'm hoping that will help as well.

 

I don't ask him to narrate the books he reads on his own apart from "so what is your book about?" Of course he rarely reads on his own, so...

 

Read or be familiar with the same books he's reading for school so you can ask him questions to help strengthen his understanding. If he really seems to struggle with a particular spot, then read with him--having him read and narrate every so often. Be careful not to make him feel like he is being grilled, though. :) Make sure you model how you read and think about the information you're reading, too, so he knows what's expected.

 

He may not read much on his own because he struggles with understanding what he reads. Perhaps try using comics, like Calvin and Hobbes, that often have several strips that compose a larger story. That may pique his interest and help him follow short storylines that could build his comprehension. Both the artwork and the actual writing could be brought to his attention as means to understand the storyline.

[razorbackmama]

That sounds very creative to me. :) To keep him on track, maybe he could write notes as he reads or make little ticks in the margin when he gets to a spot he doesn't quite understand.

 

I think that's part of the problem. He doesn't seem to realize that he doesn't understand it. He THINKS he does.:tongue_smilie:

 

Is he in the habit of asking himself questions about a text or "talking/thinking to himself" as he reads? Things like, what does this word mean? Can I figure it out by the context? I'm not sure what the sentence is saying; I'd better reread it. I'm lost; I think I need to back up a few pages and reread this section.

 

Not sure.

 

[uote]Does he seem to read very quickly? He may be unintentionally skimming rather than reading for content, and thus misses key information.

 

He doesn't seem to read quicker than normal, but who knows, maybe he is.:confused:

 

Is he doing narration after he reads a whole book? If so, maybe break it down into chapters, segments of chapters, or even paragraphs if need be. After breaking it down into smaller narrations maybe at the end of the book he could then do a final, overall narration.

 

We haven't officially started it since I am already aware of this "glitch." But the sections that I've asked him questions on before have not been large ones...probably the equivalent of a chapter or less.

 

You may have to follow along with him for a little while to get him on track to reading with attention. For instance, as you read aloud the same thing he reads silently verbalize your thought processes--the questions you might ask of the text, etc. You can also check his comprehension as you read with him (or at least have read the chapters/books so you're familiar with the info), weaning him from your assistance, until you think his comprehension has made improvements.

 

I haven't actually started doing official narrations with my daughter yet, but I did teach 8th grade English. This is what I'd do with my students if they seemed to be struggling with a text.

 

How did you do all of this with several students? That's another problem - I have 4 other children that I am teaching plus a very busy toddler, so time is limited. I'm not looking for the "fastest way," but I have to face reality in that I only have so many hours in the day.

 

Read or be familiar with the same books he's reading for school so you can ask him questions to help strengthen his understanding. If he really seems to struggle with a particular spot, then read with him--having him read and narrate every so often. Be careful not to make him feel like he is being grilled, though. :) Make sure you model how you read and think about the information you're reading, too, so he knows what's expected.

 

 

Sigh. That's what I was afraid of, having to carve out more time (from where...not sure) in order to be able to read their books too, in addition to mine (I'm taking a college class).

[elw_miller]

How did you do all of this with several students? That's another problem - I have 4 other children that I am teaching plus a very busy toddler, so time is limited. I'm not looking for the "fastest way," but I have to face reality in that I only have so many hours in the day.

 

Hmmm....that's tricky. When I did this with my middle school students it was with the whole class. We read through a challenging short story together; I picked out words and passages that I thought might be tricky and modeled my thought processes or asked questions of the class. Sometimes I had the students pair up to discuss it. We might do this for 15 minutes out of a class or the full 45 minutes--it just depended on the day. It might take a few days, going over a little bit at a time.

 

How much time do you allocate for his narration? None of this has to be done all at once, every time you narrate. Perhaps choose 1-2 things to work on for a few days, then choose something else, taking about 10 minutes each time (or for the time allotted to narration). Work it in slowly; it will gradually build up.

 

Do you read books as a family before bed? Maybe incorporate some strategies during this time as you read the stories. Or while you look at magazines at the dentists office. Or when you watch movies.

 

How old are the other children? Perhaps this could become a sibling activity where everyone discusses the same thing--a movie, favorite comics, a book being read aloud in the evening.

 

Definitely tricky. :) Good luck!

[razorbackmama]

Hmmm....that's tricky. When I did this with my middle school students it was with the whole class. We read through a challenging short story together; I picked out words and passages that I thought might be tricky and modeled my thought processes or asked questions of the class. Sometimes I had the students pair up to discuss it. We might do this for 15 minutes out of a class or the full 45 minutes--it just depended on the day. It might take a few days, going over a little bit at a time.

 

That's another tricky part. I honestly have no clue what my thought processes are as I read. I've just always been able to read and understand it.:tongue_smilie: I also think it might frustrate him. But who knows, maybe not.

 

How much time do you allocate for his narration? None of this has to be done all at once, every time you narrate. Perhaps choose 1-2 things to work on for a few days, then choose something else, taking about 10 minutes each time (or for the time allotted to narration). Work it in slowly; it will gradually build up.

 

I do school one-on-one with him for 30 minutes a day - that includes spelling, WWE, AWANA verses, and then narration.

 

Do you read books as a family before bed?

 

Yes, much to his dismay. He hates it.

 

How old are the other children? Perhaps this could become a sibling activity where everyone discusses the same thing--a movie, favorite comics, a book being read aloud in the evening.

 

They are 10, 8, almost 7, 4, and 22 months.

[MerryAtHope]

Yes, much to his dismay. He hates it.

.

 

Hm. A child who hates being read to strikes me as one who might have some auditory processing glitches. I've begun to realize this year that auditory processing issues can look very different--I used to think that it mainly related to reading errors like leaving out sounds (for example, reading "fog" when the word is "frog,") and other phonics-related issues, which is how my son (who loves ALL auditory input) struggled. But my dd was the one who disliked many read-alouds, especially if it wasn't a story of some kind with lots of pictures.

 

This can also relate to working memory (how many words/ideas can they hold in their mind before new ones bump the previous ones out?). A child who can't hold as many words/concepts in his working memory at one time would have trouble tracking with a story. We often find we need to explain things & break it down more for her, or go back over something.

 

One simple thing you can do, especially if he's struggling with instructions you give verbally, or with something like dictation, and also with you reading aloud--slow down a bit. Chunk things into phrases, say the words more slowly, give a slight pause between phrases--this can make a big difference in comprehension. If you've ever had the chance to watch any of Susan Barton's videos on dyslexia, she speaks almost annoyingly slowly. I'm not sure it's necessary to slow down quite that much, but I do find a difference in comprehension when I slow things down.

 

One thing I did with narration with my kids was start very small and build up. I used Usborne books, I read a page to them, then asked them to pick a picture and tell me everything they remembered about that picture. You can try that before moving on to narration of a paragraph. Have him read one paragraph (or you read one to him), and then tell him to tell you what he remembers about just that paragraph. When he gets good at paragraphs, then build up to a page. When he can handle a page, then I would work up to several pages & eventually a chapter. So...you might not have him narrate a whole chapter to you right now. I wouldn't make him go through paragraph by paragraph or you'll both hate it--that would be so tedious. But one or two paragraphs, see how it goes, and gradually work up.

 

You could work on movie comprehension this way too--stop after a scene & see if he can tell you what just happened. Or stop in the middle of an exciting scene and see if he can predict what will happen next. See if there are ways to break it down more for him and help him learn how to track.

 

I'm going to copy a post below with some narration links I read this winter. I posted this on Sonlight awhile back:

 

 

http://amblesideonline.org/FAQ.shtml#language

Thanks again for this link! (From the Copywork/Dictation Thread). I took quite the journey from it last weekend. From this I read the "25 page" (really 31 pages, LOL!) link on Narration here:

 

http://amblesideonline.org/Narration.shtml

 

and from that I went to the Parent's Review Articles, where it was promised that there would be articles on Narration. I ALMOST gave up looking for them, LOL! They should have warned me to start at the bottom & scroll up, ha ha! Anyway, I found these:

 

Thoughts on Narration

Concerning Repeated Narration

Some Notes on Narration

 

I think that's it. These were excellent articles & had some different ideas in them than what I've seen before.

 

Also in the above "25 page" link, I read about a Narration Cube that intrigued me. The link didn't work out for me, but I googled & found it.

 

Here's another one all filled in.

 

I came up with my own to use for history narrations (the other cube ideas were for Lit)., I'll attach it below. There are 3 options for each child:

 

The scroll is for them to "tell." My oldest needs to tell 3 things minimum, youngest 2 things.

 

The question mark is to "stump mom" by asking questions that only someone who read the chapter would know.

 

The Star means they can choose one of those options, or do a quick (5 min. or less) drawing on their whiteboard that relates & then tell me about it.

 

Because of the ideas in one of the Narration articles, I decided to try to make some changes in how I teach history, especially for my dd. So I added the cube idea as a "game," plus I decided to do more pre-teaching. I'm using the SL notes to come up with questions for the chapter (it took all of 20 minutes to come up with 3 questions per reading for the week from the notes--questions to draw them in kind of like the q's at the beginning of Story of the USA books). I might need to do more with preteaching vocabulary, but for now I'm basically defining it in context--adding a few words or a sentence as I read as if it's written there & continuing on. I can't always think of them on the fly of course, but I'll see as time goes on if that helps enough or if I'll have to pre-read & come up with a vocab. list.

Merry :-)

[razorbackmama]

Hm. A child who hates being read to strikes me as one who might have some auditory processing glitches.

 

I actually think he has Language Processing Disorder (similar yet different from Auditory Processing Disorder). Yet I have been unable to convince anyone else of that, so I have no idea how to actually help him. Sigh. I know who I'd need to go to, but I think I have to have a referral or something, and honestly anytime I've tried to talk to the SLPs about it, they blow me off. So I gave up.

 

Thanks for all the links - I'll have to check them out later. It has been a pretty awful day with this kid, and I am D-O-N-E.

[Carrie12345]

I actually think he has Language Processing Disorder (similar yet different from Auditory Processing Disorder). Yet I have been unable to convince anyone else of that, so I have no idea how to actually help him. Sigh. I know who I'd need to go to, but I think I have to have a referral or something, and honestly anytime I've tried to talk to the SLPs about it, they blow me off. So I gave up.

 

Thanks for all the links - I'll have to check them out later. It has been a pretty awful day with this kid, and I am D-O-N-E.

 

My 10yo has the same issues, and it IS very frustrating and nearly impossible to get other people to believe you. I don't know about your son, but mine can rock a multiple choice test without understanding the the concepts!

 

I have resigned myself to reading what he reads, at least the important stuff. I sometimes skip a few chapters and catch up with him down the road, but I can't just trust that he understands what he read, because he doesn't!

 

The other big factor for my ds is working on his critical thinking skills. Mind Benders, Building Thinking Skills, etc. Complex emotions, motivations, intent... those things will never be intuitive for him, but building the concrete skills has really helped him learn to work around his deficits.

[razorbackmama]

My 10yo has the same issues, and it IS very frustrating and nearly impossible to get other people to believe you. I don't know about your son, but mine can rock a multiple choice test without understanding the the concepts!

 

I have resigned myself to reading what he reads, at least the important stuff. I sometimes skip a few chapters and catch up with him down the road, but I can't just trust that he understands what he read, because he doesn't!

 

The other big factor for my ds is working on his critical thinking skills. Mind Benders, Building Thinking Skills, etc. Complex emotions, motivations, intent... those things will never be intuitive for him, but building the concrete skills has really helped him learn to work around his deficits.

 

Interesting! I may have to look into those things. He is doing Reading Detective right now to help with comprehension, but yeah, all that other stuff is an issue.

 

Watching a movie with a halfway complex plot with him...oh just rip out all my toenails, will ya? LOL! He asks questions through the whole thing since he just doesn't get it.

 

Have you been able to find anything to at least read about it? Anytime I look for something on the internet I find things on APD. *IF* I find something on LPD, it's pretty much "see an SLP.":tongue_smilie:

[Lovedtodeath]

Are you looking for something like this? You would have to reformat it so he writes the answers, lol. (I don't know what kind of books or reading level you are wanting this for, but I happen to have a few: Adventures in Ancient Egypt, Adventures in Ancient China, Usborne's Alexander the Great... I will probably have a few more when I am done, PM me if you are interested.) Then, SOTW AG has questions and answers like this, but you'd have to type them out or something. I have the same type of deal for SOTW as well.

 

1. You Wouldn’t Want to be a Sumerian Slave: 5*, 6*, 7-11

*Pause for comprehension questions.

: 5: What does Mesopotamia mean? It means “the land between the rivers”. Is there a king of Sumeria? No, every city has a king. What kind of problems does having more than one king cause? There are wars between the cities. 6: Why is the farmstead large? It is big so that your relatives (or uncles and cousins) can live there too. Who does the work on the farm? Everyone works on the farm, even the kids. Remember the mound that was found in Catal Huyuk? Do you think that they built their houses the same way the Sumerians built their houses?

[razorbackmama]

Are you looking for something like this? You would have to reformat it so he writes the answers, lol. (I don't know what kind of books or reading level you are wanting this for, but I happen to have a few: Adventures in Ancient Egypt, Adventures in Ancient China, Usborne's Alexander the Great... I will probably have a few more when I am done, PM me if you are interested.) Then, SOTW AG has questions and answers like this, but you'd have to type them out or something. I have the same type of deal for SOTW as well.

 

1. You Wouldn’t Want to be a Sumerian Slave: 5*, 6*, 7-11

*Pause for comprehension questions.

 

:5: What does Mesopotamia mean? It means “the land between the riversâ€. Is there a king of Sumeria? No, every city has a king. What kind of problems does having more than one king cause? There are wars between the cities. 6: Why is the farmstead large? It is big so that your relatives (or uncles and cousins) can live there too. Who does the work on the farm? Everyone works on the farm, even the kids. Remember the mound that was found in Catal Huyuk? Do you think that they built their houses the same way the Sumerians built their houses?

 

I'm not sure.:confused: I'm not wanting something history or science - I'm wanting "novel" like books for them. We've used BJU and CLE, and they really like those sort of stories. I was wanting to start using living books with narration instead of a reading curriculum with readers and comprehension questions, but GOOD HEAVENS I didn't know it was going to be this DIFFICULT.

[Lovedtodeath]

I see. Well, I haven't read all of the other suggestions, so I hope this doesn't sound stupid, but I would try having him read it as opposed to reading aloud, and have him type the answers instead of narrating orally, copying the format of the lessons here.

 

At least, I would start with that (because it's easy) and see if it works. It might not work, or still be too difficult, but you won't know until you try.

[Carrie12345]

Interesting! I may have to look into those things. He is doing Reading Detective right now to help with comprehension, but yeah, all that other stuff is an issue.

 

Watching a movie with a halfway complex plot with him...oh just rip out all my toenails, will ya? LOL! He asks questions through the whole thing since he just doesn't get it.

 

Have you been able to find anything to at least read about it? Anytime I look for something on the internet I find things on APD. *IF* I find something on LPD, it's pretty much "see an SLP.":tongue_smilie:

 

His diagnoses is for Asperger's, so we're always working on different types of processing issues. No direct LPD help though. We lack local private resources, and our public school completely disagreed with me. "He's too smart." :glare:

 

I'll flip through some of my books and see if I can come up with anything useful. There's so little useful info out there when actual *speech* isn't involved!