Good insights from admissions officer

[Sebastian (a lady)]

I read this article from one of the admissions officers at Pitzer College. I thought it gave a good glimpse of the hard sorting job that they have in trying to find the students who are the best fits for incoming classes.

 

I thought it might be of interest.

[Jane in NC]

Thank you. That really was insightful.

 

It reminds me of something that I have mentioned before but I believe merits repeating. I have a friend who does regional interviews for his Ivy League alma mater. He is perpetually astounded by students who have great applications but no passion in their interviews. When he asks, "Why is ____ a good fit for you?" or "What will you give to ____?", the applicants are clueless. He has become convinced that students often apply to a name school under pressure from parents without much thought as to why they wish to attend that school.

 

Of course, I understand a bit more from the student's perspective now that my son is 11th grade. Some college mail began arriving last summer. Those letters got his attention. He looked at the websites. He can tell you a bit about those schools. But after the PSAT flood gate opened, I think that almost all colleges became a blur. There is the occasional stand out but far too much information has arrived for him to process.

 

Interestingly, he always returns to Dickinson as his number one choice, probably because he discovered Dickinson on his own. (This while googling a Latin poet--one thing led to another as things do on the web.)

 

A friend of mine whose son applied to just one (gulp) college (an LAC where he was accepted and given a full scholarship) has felt that college applications and acceptances have become a sport. Kids and parents spout long lists of schools and wear their acceptances on their sleeves for the world to see.

 

And that leads to a question for Sebastian, who I believe worked as an admissions counselor, yes? Don't colleges realize that some applicants are not particularly interested in their school, that they are looking for fall back positions, scholarships, etc.? The admissions officer in the column you linked was looking for passion and a good fit at her college. If students are applying to a large number of varying sorts of schools, can they be a "good fit" at all?

 

Jane (who feels more confused by all of this as they days go on)

Edited April 12, 2009 by Jane in NC
spelling, of course

[Brenda in MA]

Here's one about the financial aspects of applying to college and how the schools use aid to build the class they want.

 

http://www.theatlantic.com/doc/200511/financial-aid-leveraging

 

Happy reading!

Brenda

[Gwen in VA]

If students are applying to a large number of varying sorts of schools, can they be a "good fit" at all?

 

I think the key is to find several schools that your child would be comfortable attending and to have him ONLY apply to those schools.

 

If your student can't imagine himself at a particular college and can't articulate what he finds appealing about a particular college, he shouldn't apply there!

 

For financial reasons, my kids applied to between 6 and 8 schools each. We wanted to find the best school for them where they would receive a generous amount of aid, and since we didn't know how "desirable" they would be to each school, they had to apply to a number.

 

Dh and I spent time with each kid before interviews and before writing the "why I want to go to your school' part of the application reviewing what aspects of the school had attracted them in the first place.

 

Ultimately, both of my kids ended up in late April deciding between the honors college of a large state school and a small top-notch LAC. The schools were VERY different, obviously, but they each had aspects that appealed to my kids. Dd's final choice was between one of two schools in the country that offer her desired degree at the undergrad level and a small college with no program in the field but a prof who promised to open doors for her. (He has!) Both school would have probably provided her with a great experience, even though they are wildly different!

[Jane in NC]

I think the key is to find several schools that your child would be comfortable attending and to have him ONLY apply to those schools.

 

If your student can't imagine himself at a particular college and can't articulate what he finds appealing about a particular college, he shouldn't apply there!

 

For financial reasons, my kids applied to between 6 and 8 schools each. We wanted to find the best school for them where they would receive a generous amount of aid, and since we didn't know how "desirable" they would be to each school, they had to apply to a number.

 

Dh and I spent time with each kid before interviews and before writing the "why I want to go to your school' part of the application reviewing what aspects of the school had attracted them in the first place.

 

Ultimately, both of my kids ended up in late April deciding between the honors college of a large state school and a small top-notch LAC. The schools were VERY different, obviously, but they each had aspects that appealed to my kids. Dd's final choice was between one of two schools in the country that offer her desired degree at the undergrad level and a small college with no program in the field but a prof who promised to open doors for her. (He has!) Both school would have probably provided her with a great experience, even though they are wildly different!

 

As usual, Gwen, you articulate insight and common sense. Honor's college programs at large schools often have that small college feel. I have a niece who attended James Madison College at Michigan State University where, for the most part, she had small classes and seminars of the sort one would associate with an LAC. Her MSU experience was probably very different from that of the typical freshman at her school.

 

I hope that your oldest two are home for the Easter weekend, Gwen. I know you miss them terribly.

 

Jane

[Sebastian (a lady)]

First, let me correct that I'm an Admissions Liason Officer, not a member of the paid Admissions Office staff. I am a volunteer that does community outreach, candidate counseling and admissions interviews. So while I get to provide a lot of information about students to admissions and about the school to students and counselors, I'm not one of the people who actually gets to vote on admitting individual students. (The Naval Academy term for my position is Blue and Gold Officer (BGO).)

 

The service academies are probably not a fall back school for most students. But I will admit that there are students who are attracted by the idea of not paying tuition for college who haven't thought through the who idea that the school isn't free, it is just paid for with obligated military service instead tuition. This is a great deal for some folks and would make others miserable.

 

So one of the things that I'm interested in is why a student is applying to the Naval Academy. Is there a desire to actually serve in the military (for at least 6 years if not a whole 20-30 year career)? Is there parental pressure (for financial or family tradition)? Have they already done research about the military and academy lifestyle (online, books, talking to students or grads)? Is their interest in the military demonstrated by plan B options like ROTC or other service academies?

 

Unfortunately, I seem to encounter a lot of students who have put little thought into their application. The paperwork process is long, complicated and more than a little arduous. But I would also hope that a candidate would have some idea about the rigors of freshman year, the emphasis on technical majors and the military service options.

 

That doesn't mean that want a kid to tell me that his dream is only to flight jet fighter aircraft. With that student I would probably have a serious conversation about the competition involved, not only to get an aviation billet in the first place but then to get the fighter slot after the early phases of flight school.

 

But I also have interviews where I ask what military service seem interesting and get responses like, "Um, a ship I guess? Don't they just tell you where to go?" It just throws up red flags that the student doesn't really know what they are signing up for. (I think the parallels for a civilian school would be the student who was only interested in one particular selective program or one who seemed to like the school because of some reputation or name recognition but be unable to describe what academic offerings were of interest. I don't think that admissions reps expect for high school seniors to have their whole life planned out. But it is nice to encounter a student that has a couple dreams and is realistic about the steps to achieving them.)

 

I don't think that there is a student who is a good fit for every program at every school. But I do think that a kid who has a spectrum of interests should be tailoring an application and interview to the particular college in question. So to take my examples of service academy applicants, a student might be able to articulate why they are interested in a service academy or why they are interested in a large state school with a big ROTC unit or why they are interested in a small liberal arts program with a cross town ROTC program (or a summer training program like Platoon Leader Course or applying for OCS after graduation).

 

I love it when a kid tells me about all their plan B options (even if they seem to be competitors with USNA) because it tells me they've thought through the options. It really bugs me when a student has no idea about ROTC or other military options (partly because it tells me that we have failed to adequately communicate the info about the ROTC option and partly because it makes me suspect that the student is motivated by family pressure or financial pressure to apply but isn't really interested in becoming a Naval Officer).

 

FWIW, there was one military job dh had that had a very serious interview and application process. In fact it was a joint interview that I was also asked questions at. For weeks before the interview, dh and I would pepper each other with mock interview questions. Some were a little absurd, some were hard questions that we had to work to find articulate answers to. We were actually much harder on each other than the actual interviewers were. I think that mock interviews would be very good practice for high schoolers applying for college or scholarships. It helps them think through the whys of an application, about what makes them a unique and competitive student; and it helps them in their delivery because they can concentrate on the message they are trying to get across without all the ums and stunned pauses.

[Pam "SFSOM" in TN]

 

A friend of mine whose son applied to just one (gulp) college (an LAC where he was accepted and given a full scholarship) has felt that college applications and acceptances have become a sport. Kids and parents spout long lists of schools and wear their acceptances on their sleeves for the world to see.

 

 

 

This was my son. Early decision application, didn't look at other schools because he knew where he wanted to go and just trusted the financial package would be enough. Thought all the letters of acceptance on the doors of the seniors at his school were trophies of some sort, just to collect and brag about. (I don't think this is necessarily true, but that was his perception.)

 

I don't recommend it. Years off my life gone waiting for that financial aid to come through. Crazy kid. We could never in a million years paid for him to go to his school if they hadn't given him scholarships. All his eggs in one red basket, and all I got was this lousy gray hair.

 

I hope dd is wiser about this -- or rather, more closely aligned to my comfort zone -- and applies to multiple schools. She's not likely to have her brother's SAT scores to bargain with, so she'll have to dig a little deeper. I'm hoping she can find some place to be passionate about attending, though. Right now, she just simply has no idea what she wants to major in or what she's looking for in a school (except "small," whatever that means).

[cathmom]

I only applied to two grad schools. One I thought was a sure thing, the other was just a backup, and several times I almost didn't finish my application.

 

Yep. You guessed it. Didn't even get in at the sure thing, and I was really glad I had that backup. I do NOT recommend this!

[cathmom]

I read this article from one of the admissions officers at Pitzer College. I thought it gave a good glimpse of the hard sorting job that they have in trying to find the students who are the best fits for incoming classes.

 

I thought it might be of interest.

 

Thanks for this article! I just read it and I really have to say, in this day and age of being able to find out anything on the Internet, making researching a college so simple, it's just inexcusable to not have done that research.

[Sharon in MD]

We narrowed the search down to the top six and really had planned originally to apply to all of them....but after a bit more thinking and soul searching we decided on just 4 of them. One that we dropped was for social reasons, we just felt that the student population was generally a good bit more well to do than us. We feared that ds would always be on the outside socially....they would be skiing in the Alps at Christmas while he skied at the local PA resorts... The other one we dropped because they did not offer his real dream major and were a bit of stretch in distance and financially.

 

The ones we kept, one was a safety, one was the dream school, and two were reasonable in-state options. He got in all of them and got good scholarships to 3 of them.

 

The moral of our story is I think you should apply where you think you might really go. I think you should have a safe bet in there and one that is a bit of the reach. BUT I think they should all be places where your kids could really see themselves going....otherwise it is a waste of time and effort. God knows the senior year flashes by...why waste any of it?

[Nan in Mass]

Two of my sons applied to just one college, saying it was the only place they wanted to go. It was much, much less work and I don't think it would have been any less stressful to apply to other colleges. The first son didn't intend to go to college if he wasn't accepted, and the second one applied early enough that we could have (with a huge scramble) applied elsewhere.

-Nan

[hollyhillhomeschool]

I am homeschooling a ds almost 14, and dd almost 12 (and have been since ds 4 years old) but am also an area college admissions interviewer for my alma mater Ivy league college.

 

We look for evidence of strong leadership skills, analytical capacity, intellectual curiosity, self-initiative, depth of interest, among other qualities. Unfortunately, the college marketplace is so saturated from number of applicants that acceptance numbers are going down. Many are turned down who are very qualified. However, I would agree with the previous posts here, that it is surprising to me how many candidates I interview who (perhaps?) are so busy with regular school routine, that they do not pursue intellectual (and also other) interests in any depth. For me, a superb candidate presents himself/herself with confidence and personal maturity, energetic articulation, engages in sharing about specific interests he/she may have, and indicates how he/she has gone beyond the typical to pursue exploring these interests. To ably converse about these interests with passion, depth and true content usually marks a good candidate.

 

Having said all this, and even being an interviewer with the "inside track," I don't really have the inside track. It still feels some days that this whole high school homeschool experience is a big black box for me (particularly since I am new to it with my own children) and look to all of you for your perspectives on what worked/what did not work. I am guessing that, though dh and I attended Ivy L schools, it might not be where the Lord wants our children....and it also might not be best for them.

 

I will say that homeschool is such a wild card for some schools that SAT and stdized testing seems to be the best way for these types of schools to evaluate our children.

[Sebastian (a lady)]

I will say that homeschool is such a wild card for some schools that SAT and stdized testing seems to be the best way for these types of schools to evaluate our children.

 

The standard advice that I give for USNA is that the top tier schools aren't looking for students who meet some minimum requirement. They are looking for exceptional students who really stand out. It is the student's job to give the school enough information to make that judgement.

 

So, while I don't like schools that have extra requirements for homeschool students (like SAT subject tests) I do (as a homeschool parent) think that it is a handy tool because it gives the schools something that they feel competent measuring. But there are other things that fall into this category (individual sports achievement; volunteer work; outside activities like drama, debate or speech) because they give a measure of the student outside of their grades (which even from classrooms are variable, incomplete measurements at best).

 

Just as example, two candidates that impressed me greatly. One was very involved in triathalons and long distance biking. He had completed the Kona Ironman in the under 18 division and had done a bike race up Haleakala (neither of which are for the faint hearted). When he told me that he liked to do hard things because they were hard, he had a lot of credibility.

The other was a varsity basketball player and good student, but what impressed me and the admissions officer was watching him interact with his uncle, who was mentally handicaped and lived with his family. This was in incredible testimony of his character and I'm willing to bet that he didn't even realize that he was making an impression.

[JFSinIL]

My ds will probably apply to six...one fairly cheap sure thing (state U), one less sure, still cheapish but large so don't really see him there (U of State), and four private schools - one with an over 70% accept rate, the others 30% accept. it will boil down to MONEY, and ds knows it.

 

When I went to college, I got in everywhere I applied as an undergrad and for my Masters. When I went for a PhD program 2 of the 4 schools I applied for actually rejected me (gasp, horror! and one of them was my first choice school) and of the two that accepted - one gave a full scholarship. Guess where I ended up. ;)

 

We are in the process of visiting schools, with two visits done, six more scheduled,and two (at least) left to plan, so ds can whittle down the colleges his adviser (moi) selected to a more reasonable six. Of the two visited, one is already off the list.

Edited April 20, 2009 by JFSinIL

[Susan in IL]

Last week, I talked with an admissions officer at a more selective LAC (avg. ACT 28, SAT 1280). I mentioned the book The Gatekeepers, and he did say he was a gatekeeper. They don't get nearly the number of apps and they do all their work in the office but there are quite a few things that are exactly dead on.