Rethinking my Homeschool, getting away from the Prussian model of education

[Annie Laurie]

I heard John Gatto speak at a conference a few years ago (six maybe?). He named Classical Education as his ideal model for education.

 

I recently heard an interview with him on NPR and was going to say something along the same lines.

 

I think the "Prussian model" is being misinterpreted here. The Prussian model was about using schools to turn out good workers. Thinking for oneself was not encouraged, but never questioning authority was. It was about learning taking place in regimented segments- when the bell rang you obeyed it and moved on, never mind if you were in the middle of a fascinating class discussion or any other activity where learning was taking place, you needed to learn to work in designated time slots.

 

Classical education encourages questioning, thinking for oneself, and reasoning. It doesn't matter if you do traditional school subjects, such as grammar followed by math; the pursuit of knowledge, as well as discovery and critical thinking, are all taking place. And this is the case especially at home, where if Johnny is making some fascinating connections doing a science experiment and it's sparking all kinds of questions, we don't have to make Johhny move on because of an artificial time schedule.

[Laura Corin]

Laura - How did you arrive at Calvin organizing his whole week by the age of twelve? I'm really just asking. That seems like a great goal esp when his passions are included, then he learns to discipline himself to complete the week, the favorites and the not so faves, right? Do you have recommended reading? If it's a culmination or aggregation of much parenting, philosophy, and education concepts you've been exposed to, is there any crash course available? (I'm trying to kid...) I appreciate any leads - :001_smile:

and yes, interesting thread, I am subscribed!

 

I made him a list of English and maths to accomplish for the week in that time. He likes English and isn't keen on maths, so he got used to organising that time (about two hours a day). He was doing that when he was about ten; Hobbes is doing it now, at eight. From there, I just moved to writing a list for the whole week (he works 4 1/2 long days) which he gets on with. If things start to slide, then we discuss how to organise the day better, but it's largely up to him. There are also a few lessons that we all do together, so he has to work around those.

 

Calvin is a law-abiding child who feels guilty if he doesn't get his work done. Hobbes is more motivated by having free time if he gets things finished. The system works for both.

 

Laura

[Snickerdoodle]

:)

[Greta]

I recommend a book called "The Disciplined Mind" by Howard Gardner. His key argument is that "K-12 education should enhance a deep understanding of three principles: truth, beauty,and goodness." He definitely uses the less is more approach.

 

I didn't realize there had been more replies in this thread since I last read it. Not sure what made me check it, but I'm glad I did. Thank you ALL for this thoughtful discussion! You sparked so many great ideas. And thank you Denise for this book recommendation.

[Greta]

I think the "Prussian model" is being misinterpreted here. The Prussian model was about using schools to turn out good workers. Thinking for oneself was not encouraged, but never questioning authority was. It was about learning taking place in regimented segments- when the bell rang you obeyed it and moved on, never mind if you were in the middle of a fascinating class discussion or any other activity where learning was taking place, you needed to learn to work in designated time slots.

 

Classical education encourages questioning, thinking for oneself, and reasoning. It doesn't matter if you do traditional school subjects, such as grammar followed by math; the pursuit of knowledge, as well as discovery and critical thinking, are all taking place. And this is the case especially at home, where if Johnny is making some fascinating connections doing a science experiment and it's sparking all kinds of questions, we don't have to make Johhny move on because of an artificial time schedule.

 

I do appreciate the distinction you're making, and it's a very important point. I just think that *I* haven't done a very good job of allowing my "Johnny" to explore things in more depth, because *I* am so ingrained the the Prussian model that it is what school looks like to me. I have a tendency to think "oh, we've got to cover this and this and this or she'll get behind!" When the truth is, if I just help her explore this more deeply, she'll get a better education even if she hasn't learned a broad (but shallow) number of topics.

 

But as far as sparking questions, I do definitely try to always honor her curiosity, and really discuss things with her. Sometimes I think it's appropriate to simply answer her question, but I try to look for ways to help her answer her own question, or to even turn her questions around and ask her what she thinks. That's certainly something I can do regardless of what curriculum or method we use. And a very good thing to keep in mind.

[Corraleno]

Laura - How did you arrive at Calvin organizing his whole week by the age of twelve? I'm really just asking. That seems like a great goal esp when his passions are included, then he learns to discipline himself to complete the week, the favorites and the not so faves, right? Do you have recommended reading? If it's a culmination or aggregation of much parenting, philosophy, and education concepts you've been exposed to, is there any crash course available? (I'm trying to kid...) I appreciate any leads - :001_smile:

and yes, interesting thread, I am subscribed!

 

I'm not Laura, but my 11 year old DS also manages his own week. In terms of a "crash course," here's what I did: I cut up some strip magnets and wrote subjects on them with a sharpie. Each magnet represented either one lesson (e.g. math) or 30-40 minutes of work (writing, reading, etc), and I made the number of magnets for each subject represent the amount of work I expected in a week (e.g. 5 math lesson magnets, 2 history chapter magnets, 1 vocabulary lesson, etc). I mounted 2 small magnetic white boards above his desk and he moves the magnets from the left board to the right board as he finishes them. He decides what days and in what order to do things. He usually decides to get his least favorite subjects out of the way first, and on several occasions he's chosen to work really hard for 3-4 days and have a day or two that's totally free. Other weeks he gets a slow start and then has to slog through the last day or two, or even work on Saturday, so he learns the consequence of procrastination and the value of good time management. He has attention issues and is by nature very disorganized, so I hope that by the time he gets to college, this will be second-nature to him.

 

Jackie

[Gillian on Orcas Island]

 

Is there not some middle ground where parent and child work cooperatively? Where the child's interests can be explored, as fully and deeply as possible, and yet the adult can also serve as guide and mentor, to shine a light for the child upon what is good, true, and beautiful? To ensure a well-rounded education?

 

Well, these are the thoughts that have been bouncing around in my head the last few days, and I would love to hear others' perspective on these topics. Do you feel that you simply do "school at home" or do you do something fundamentally different? How much of a role do your children have in deciding what their education will look like? How can we be our children's guides and mentors without suffocating them (squelching their curiosity, killing their independent free-thinking nature) with authority-determined directives and imposed mandates?

 

Hi Greta, I'd just like to point you to a blog, titled Camp Creek Blog, at

http://www.whiteoakschool.com/

to explore your questions along these lines. The blogger, Lori, is doing very interesting work with what she refers to as Project Based Learning. From what I can gather, she's inspired by unschooling, Montessori, and the Emilio Reggio methods. It's kind of: adult as guide, noticing the child's interests and providing the tools and encouragement for projects of the child's own devising.

I like to read the posts there, as I am sort of on a perpetual quest to figure out what I want our methodology to be, but for now I am too invested in my current way of doing things, which is a Classical/CM/Waldorf mix, but very much still a "now we are Doing School" model. So I am not much help, but the blog might be!

Edited April 26, 2009 by Gillian on Orcas Island

[Tabrett]

I'm not sure that it is possible to follow a "Prussian" model of education if you are homeschooling, unless you use state text books and teaching methods. Even still, you are not able to follow it correctly because a main part of the Prussian model was being "in" the institution. If you are at home, you are not in the institutions and are not regulated to the "mass herding" at a public or private school (Hence, the "socialization" everybody is worried about. How will they ever learn to stand quietly in a line!!!!).

 

From what little I have read, the Prussian model was designed to under-mind individual thought and to learn to take orders from the government. I can see how the US public school system does this. They will educate the mass to be able to accomplish about 5th grade ability work level. They do want you to be able to read and write to about the 5th grade level. It will keep the mass happy, but prevent them from being able to full comprehend what the government is doing. How many regular "Dick and Janes" can read a legal document and make heads or tails? The PS does want you to learn some history; history that will make you think the way they want you to think. But... I feel the reason they don't really teach history is because it repeats it's self. They don't want you to see what they are trying to do has already been tried and the real outcome. Please understand I said the MASS. There are a lot of people who go through the system and receive a good education, but look around you, really, really look. Do you think most people you see in public can understand anything higher than 5th? Maybe that is one of the reasons for the short lived popularity of the show "Are You Smarter Than A 5th Grader?".

 

I don't see how mandating what you child learns is "Prussian". Children MUST learn certain subjects to be educated. My dd doesn't like phonics lessons, but I really don't care. She says she doesn't like to read, but I really don't care. She is 5 and doesn't understand the value of reading (even though she LOVES to be read to). If she directed her studies, we would be playing dress-up and swinging outside (which she does for hours a day, after her 2 hours of school).

 

That is why the government doesn't like homeschooling. We can educate our dc to really understand what is going on, to be able to associate it to what has already happened in our past to forth tell the outcome. I don't think teachers in PS even realize this is going on and that they willingly participate. They are so focused on managing 25 kids in a classroom, with very parental support, and are exhausted!

[Greta]

I'm not Laura, but my 11 year old DS also manages his own week. In terms of a "crash course," here's what I did: I cut up some strip magnets and wrote subjects on them with a sharpie. Each magnet represented either one lesson (e.g. math) or 30-40 minutes of work (writing, reading, etc), and I made the number of magnets for each subject represent the amount of work I expected in a week (e.g. 5 math lesson magnets, 2 history chapter magnets, 1 vocabulary lesson, etc). I mounted 2 small magnetic white boards above his desk and he moves the magnets from the left board to the right board as he finishes them. He decides what days and in what order to do things. He usually decides to get his least favorite subjects out of the way first, and on several occasions he's chosen to work really hard for 3-4 days and have a day or two that's totally free. Other weeks he gets a slow start and then has to slog through the last day or two, or even work on Saturday, so he learns the consequence of procrastination and the value of good time management. He has attention issues and is by nature very disorganized, so I hope that by the time he gets to college, this will be second-nature to him.

 

Jackie

 

Wow, this sounds like a great idea, Jackie. Thanks for sharing. I am curious about those strip magnets. The only ones I've ever seen were black. Did you find some in a color which would make it easier to see your writing?

[laughing lioness]

I would suggest that you develop your own educational and parenting philosophy and pedagogy. Reading and research will help; I would suggest Holt, Moore, Covey, Bauer, Wilson, Bluedorn, Pudewa, Grant, Gatto, Collins, Montessori, Mason,The Bible. We do believe that education is the transmission of culture and we have a clear vision for the culture that we want to convey to our kids.

 

Develop your vision: Who you are.

Develop you Mission: What you do

Develop you goals: Small, incremental goals that allow you to accomplish your mission and vision.

 

I also believe that younger children need more guidance, and older children/youth/young adults, need mentoring to do "hard things" even when their interests and passions veer them in a different direction Academic discipline has many other applications. Having said that, finding opportunities that will jazz your kids and allow their passions to blossom is really cool, (and in my case has stretched me a lot, too). I am an opportunity seeking Momma. I'm always on the lookout for people, tools, experiences that might fit one of my kids. It's a lot of work and we've invested in some things that have "bombed" but we've also invested in some things that have been super cool.

Our kids work hard, and they play hard too and they have a lot of free time. We've had unique opportunites given to us and sought out, but we have, to an extent, turned away from status quo. People in church and the community rave about our kids, their maturity, intelligence, passion, ability to speak publically, etc. but still think we're a little "odd" becasue we've homeschooled for so long. I actually had a friend say to me (a long time friend) "we all want the benefits of homeschooling, but we don't want to make the sacrifice." I say all of that because if you really develop a proactive, carpe diem paradigm by which to raise your children you will be radical indeed!

I have found that as I've really sought out education for my own kids I've had to sacrifice my own laziness, indifference, lack of edcuation, pleasure seeking self and get educated. This has caused me to grow. For instance, in the past 2 years I have really learned grammar. I can write- have written a thesis, write for fun, etc, but I never really got grammar. And I've discovered that it's fun, it's empowering, I can DO IT, I can write better, speak better, understand people better, think better, teach my kids better.

Next, I am going to get off my lazy rocker and move on in Latin with my kids. I am still a little intimidated, but not so much so that I'm not doing it.

We've gotten rid of the T.V. for many reasons (I highlly suggest "Amusing Ourselves to Death, by Neil Postman) but one of them is that is sucks the time out of your day. We limit computer useage and have no electronic toys. Our kids are very adept at electronics, love them, play them with friends, but I'd rather that we talk, read, go outdoors, etc. I want my kids passionate and when they sit in front of a screen listlessly for lengths of time, they become apathetic.

We talk alot to and with our kids. We take our kids to a lot of adult activities. We include them in our lives, thoughts, faith, hobbies, work. We invest our selves in our kids. Our lives are oriented around our vision for our family. It is a rich and satisfying way to live and our kids are creative, intelligent, passionate people. We have gone from homeschooling our kids to "creating a beautiful family culture."

All the best to you as you seek a vision that is big enough!:001_smile:

[Caroline]

I love this post!!

 

I would suggest that you develop your own educational and parenting philosophy and pedagogy. Reading and research will help; I would suggest Holt, Moore, Covey, Bauer, Wilson, Bluedorn, Pudewa, Grant, Gatto, Collins, Montessori, Mason,The Bible. We do believe that education is the transmission of culture and we have a clear vision for the culture that we want to convey to our kids.

 

Develop your vision: Who you are.

Develop you Mission: What you do

Develop you goals: Small, incremental goals that allow you to accomplish your mission and vision.

 

I also believe that younger children need more guidance, and older children/youth/young adults, need mentoring to do "hard things" even when their interests and passions veer them in a different direction Academic discipline has many other applications. Having said that, finding opportunities that will jazz your kids and allow their passions to blossom is really cool, (and in my case has stretched me a lot, too). I am an opportunity seeking Momma. I'm always on the lookout for people, tools, experiences that might fit one of my kids. It's a lot of work and we've invested in some things that have "bombed" but we've also invested in some things that have been super cool.

Our kids work hard, and they play hard too and they have a lot of free time. We've had unique opportunites given to us and sought out, but we have, to an extent, turned away from status quo. People in church and the community rave about our kids, their maturity, intelligence, passion, ability to speak publically, etc. but still think we're a little "odd" becasue we've homeschooled for so long. I actually had a friend say to me (a long time friend) "we all want the benefits of homeschooling, but we don't want to make the sacrifice." I say all of that because if you really develop a proactive, carpe diem paradigm by which to raise your children you will be radical indeed!

I have found that as I've really sought out education for my own kids I've had to sacrifice my own laziness, indifference, lack of edcuation, pleasure seeking self and get educated. This has caused me to grow. For instance, in the past 2 years I have really learned grammar. I can write- have written a thesis, write for fun, etc, but I never really got grammar. And I've discovered that it's fun, it's empowering, I can DO IT, I can write better, speak better, understand people better, think better, teach my kids better.

Next, I am going to get off my lazy rocker and move on in Latin with my kids. I am still a little intimidated, but not so much so that I'm not doing it.

We've gotten rid of the T.V. for many reasons (I highlly suggest "Amusing Ourselves to Death, by Neil Postman) but one of them is that is sucks the time out of your day. We limit computer useage and have no electronic toys. Our kids are very adept at electronics, love them, play them with friends, but I'd rather that we talk, read, go outdoors, etc. I want my kids passionate and when they sit in front of a screen listlessly for lengths of time, they become apathetic.

We talk alot to and with our kids. We take our kids to a lot of adult activities. We include them in our lives, thoughts, faith, hobbies, work. We invest our selves in our kids. Our lives are oriented around our vision for our family. It is a rich and satisfying way to live and our kids are creative, intelligent, passionate people. We have gone from homeschooling our kids to "creating a beautiful family culture."

All the best to you as you seek a vision that is big enough!:001_smile:

[FlockOfSillies]

The curriculum is determined entirely by me and while, yes it includes some valuable topics that aren't explored in the public schools (Latin and an emphasis on Classics) it is imposed upon my child -- she is not an active participant in her education, not a willing partner, but a passive recipient. I decide what the topic will be. I decide when the lesson begins. I decide when the lesson ends. She is simply subjected to it.

 

Wow, when I put it in black and white like that, it really does sound awful!

 

Funny, to me it sounds like parenting, especially when it involves small children who don't know what's best for them and don't know what they don't know. Foolishness is bound up in the heart of a child and handing him the reins of his education is a recipe for disaster.

 

"School at home" to me means things like ringing a bell to transition between classes, character ed posters on the walls, spending X amount of time on subjects regardless of need, teaching kids above or below their level, things that involve "crowd control" that simply don't translate well to hs. You know, the kinds of things that non-hsers imagine about homeschooling.

 

If I blended everything together into some seamless form, I think we'd have more gaps in my kids' education. It's just too easy for us to get off on tangents and miss out on the main things. Plus, not all kids pick up on those subtle cues we like to give them. And I can't imagine doing math as it comes up and expecting my kids to become proficient at it. All that, and I just don't have the bandwidth or desire for such an endeavor. I'm a "don't reinvent the wheel" kind of gal. For me, discrete subjects make a lot of sense for a variety of reasons at a variety of ages.

 

My pair o' pennies.