How much algebra is needed for geometry?

[Alphabetika]

Forgive my ignorance, but I struggled with math and remember little of these two subjects, except that I liked geometry and understood it MUCH better than algebra.

 

My dd is similar to me, except that her difficulties with math have been consistent since the beginning. She has no algebra experience, but she is interested in the "visualness" of geometry. Could she do something pre-geometry like Keys to Geometry?

 

This would not ultimately be a substitute for algebra, but she is so discouraged right now that I'd like to give her something to do to build her confidence up through next fall when we may be able to get her into a classroom situation so she'd have a "real teacher" for algebra. She is excellent in all other subjects and I don't intend to slack off in anything else, but she's in 9th grade, looking towards an artistic career (photography and/or music) and I freely admit that I want her to have just enough math to get her into a program in one of those disciplines and possibly no more, barring a mathematical epiphany in her life.

 

Thank you for any help you can offer.

[Alphabetika]

Anyone?:)

[Melissa in Australia]

According to Fritz Hinrichs you don't have to do Algebra at all! geometry it the Greek way of doing math and algebra is the Arabic way. He recomends working through Euclid's Elements

I wouldn't go that far myself. I have always found algebra interesting.

[MyThreeSons]

She has no algebra experience, but she is interested in the "visualness" of geometry. Could she do something pre-geometry like Keys to Geometry?

 

 

I had my oldest ds do Key to Geometry when he really wasn't ready to do Algebra. It is very visual and hands-on and appealed to this artsy side. It should make a traditional Geometry course make more sense when she gets there.

 

She will, however, need a full Geometry program, and I don't know of one that doesn't use some basic Algebra at times. I do recommend Key to Algebra for those not quite ready for Algebra; perhaps she could work thru both programs, doing some from each one every day, or alternating days.

 

HTH

[Alphabetika]

Thank you so much to both of you! I am comforted in different ways by what you've shared

 

Well, if Fritz Hinrichs says it....:tongue_smilie: His school is an hour or so away, and I have a friend whose son will be taking one of his Great Books classes next year. (Off-topic, I know, but I had to mention it). Also off topic - my brother lives in Abbotsbury NSW. :001_smile: Thanks, Melissa!

 

And, yes, My Three Sons, I had thought the same myself - Keys to Algebra and Keys to Geometry. I already have the Geom, and looking through it leads me to believe that she'd do very well with it. And I have thought about Keys to Algebra, too. Your "alternate days" idea is excellent. Off to Timberdoodle I go......

 

Thank you so much!

[Julie in GA]

My ds did Jacobs Elem. Algebra and is now doing Jacobs Geometry, and doesn't use much algebra at all. The geometry text includes algebra review questions for this reason. I would think, though, that you might as well take algebra 1 first, or at least get through half of an algebra 1 book before doing geometry, since that's the standard progression.

 

If you have a non-mathy student, or one who takes to geometry, but struggles with algebra, maybe you could try the "Key to" series for both subjects, alternating after each booklet, or something like that.

 

hth,

[Storm Bay]

Funny that you should bring this up. Just yesterday I was thinking that I ought to get the Key to Geometry set for my younger dd either during her pre-Algebra or her Algebra 1 time. She just loves it, and, being very vs, likely to find it so much easier than Algebra. Although I think she'll do well with Algebra when she's ready. This post is great, because maybe we'll do some geometry instead of pre-Algebra, and then do Algebra and the other kind of geometry. I'm going to get it for my older dd to do the contructions before she hits her other geometry course, anyway.

[LoriM]

All geometry requires some simple algebra. In order to find volume or area, a student must be able to use formulas and solve for one variable in terms of another variable. Some geometry curriculums talk about the equation of the tangent line, and graph the geometric figures on a Cartesian plane (so that the shapes are evaluated both geometrically and algebraically).

 

Personally, I think a student should complete Algebra 1 with a relatively strong understanding ("B" is fine) before hitting Geometry. As with any math, the stronger your fundamentals, the easier the new material becomes. With weak foundational skills, even simple concepts get complicated by doing things like counting on your fingers or not quickly converting from fractions to decimals.

 

IME, Key to Geometry is a waste of time. It's all construction, little explantion, really more an "art" text. A better "preGeometry" text is Cliff's Notes Geometry (the yellow and black book). You can buy it at Wal-Mart or another discount store for under $10.

 

HTH,

 

Lori

Forgive my ignorance, but I struggled with math and remember little of these two subjects, except that I liked geometry and understood it MUCH better than algebra.

 

My dd is similar to me, except that her difficulties with math have been consistent since the beginning. She has no algebra experience, but she is interested in the "visualness" of geometry. Could she do something pre-geometry like Keys to Geometry?

 

This would not ultimately be a substitute for algebra, but she is so discouraged right now that I'd like to give her something to do to build her confidence up through next fall when we may be able to get her into a classroom situation so she'd have a "real teacher" for algebra. She is excellent in all other subjects and I don't intend to slack off in anything else, but she's in 9th grade, looking towards an artistic career (photography and/or music) and I freely admit that I want her to have just enough math to get her into a program in one of those disciplines and possibly no more, barring a mathematical epiphany in her life.

 

Thank you for any help you can offer.

[Storm Bay]

IME, Key to Geometry is a waste of time. It's all construction, little explantion, really more an "art" text. HTH,

 

Lori

 

 

This is exactly why we're going to buy it :). One or more of the math gurus on this board suggested something like this, because if you do constructions first, it makes "real" geometry easier to understand. This will be especially true for my artsy dds. IMO, the Key to math series is not very good as a stand alone series, but there are times when it can help.

[LoriM]

I don't think I'm making it clear...LOL. I actually recommended the Key to Geometry text for a non-mathy art major kid (she's *literally* an art major now). It was not a good program. Not a good fit at all. The "math" isn't math, and the art isn't art! It's more tedious and annoying than helpful.

 

I have seen some GOOD geometric construction texts, but Key to Geometry isn't one. It's not that it's easier than "real" geometry.

 

Oh, well. Buy it. Send it back if it doesn't fit. :) Just don't plan on it being "math for a year" or anything like that. You'll end up not doing math for a year, and not progressing in art either.

[Storm Bay]

I don't think I'm making it clear...LOL. I actually recommended the Key to Geometry text for a non-mathy art major kid (she's *literally* an art major now). It was not a good program. Not a good fit at all. The "math" isn't math, and the art isn't art! It's more tedious and annoying than helpful.

 

I have seen some GOOD geometric construction texts, but Key to Geometry isn't one. It's not that it's easier than "real" geometry.

 

Oh, well. Buy it. Send it back if it doesn't fit. :) Just don't plan on it being "math for a year" or anything like that. You'll end up not doing math for a year, and not progressing in art either.

 

 

No, it's going to be fun math for the summer. Geometry for next year is going to be Basic Geometry 3rd Edition by Birkhoff & Beatley, which we bought from the American Math Society on Charon's recommendation, since I needed something with a TM and a solution guide. We also have a used 1973 copy of Dressler's Geometry on the shelf if need be.

 

As I mentioned, my dd's are artsy. They enjoy drawing. There are constructions in the texts we have, of course. I would never choose a Key to course for a full course, certainly not after buying the Fractions one. But it can introduce the topic. My dds do well if they can see something, and draw it, first. Especially my younger one.

[LoriM]

My daughter was a double major, art and mathematics, but now is simply a math major (with a minor in art). She will graduate in December (and marry in January!). You can see some of her art here: http://ginevra25-weasley.deviantart.com/ My younger daughter is a photography student. You can see some of her photos here: http://magnuscaput11.deviantart.com/ I hear you with the "artsy" daughters. :)

 

I was sorely disappointed in Key to Geometry (even for the non-mathy not-my-kid who used it) upon closer inspection...and I actually like the KTF and KTA books for supplements (although there are lots of other ways to bridge those gaps too!).

 

Now, a great tool that Key Press has is the Geometer's Sketchpad software. That's a cool way to look at constructions. Slight changes, big differences.

[Storm Bay]

My daughter was a double major, art and mathematics, but now is simply a math major (with a minor in art). She will graduate in December (and marry in January!). You can see some of her art here: http://ginevra25-weasley.deviantart.com/ My younger daughter is a photography student. You can see some of her photos here: http://magnuscaput11.deviantart.com/ I hear you with the "artsy" daughters. :)

 

I was sorely disappointed in Key to Geometry (even for the non-mathy not-my-kid who used it) upon closer inspection...and I actually like the KTF and KTA books for supplements (although there are lots of other ways to bridge those gaps too!).

 

Now, a great tool that Key Press has is the Geometer's Sketchpad software. That's a cool way to look at constructions. Slight changes, big differences.

 

 

Okay, good points. Perhaps I'll take a look at this other thing you've mentioned. I just want something fun with lots of construction. I don't want it on the computer

[Kathy in Richmond]

Karin,

 

Not sure if this would suit your dd, but you might want to take a look:

 

Geometric Constructions by Kathleen Julicher.

 

It's a workbook that teaches twenty basic constructions in the context of eight story-problems. Each problem starts with a story such as:

 

"You are the captain of the USS Swift Shark submarine. While enroute to the secret submarine base, your ship's computer fails and deletes the location of the base..."

 

Then you have a page with a fun drawing showing where you must start and various labeled objects in the story. You have instructions for a series of constructions to perform such as "proceed from the starting point to a location half-way to Long Island to find Point A. Follow a course bisecting the angle formed by your pervious path, Point A, and the underwater canyon....",etc. If you do everything correctly, you eventually arrive at the lost base in this example.

 

Each puzzle presents several different kinds of constructions. They're quite challenging, but interesting and fun. An answer key is included in the back of the workbook, along with a reference section where each of the constructions is explained in detail.

 

It would be easy to work through this in a summer. My highly v/s artsy-mathy daughter loved it.

 

hth,

Kathy

Edited March 28, 2009 by Kathy in Richmond

[Matryoshka]

No, it's going to be fun math for the summer.

 

As I mentioned, my dd's are artsy. They enjoy drawing. There are constructions in the texts we have, of course. I would never choose a Key to course for a full course, certainly not after buying the Fractions one. But it can introduce the topic. My dds do well if they can see something, and draw it, first. Especially my younger one.

 

Have you considered Right Start Geometry for a fun summer math? From what I understand it's pretty much all constructions, and is supposed to be a lead-in to algebra.

[Storm Bay]

Karin,

 

Not sure if this would suit your dd, but you might want to take a look:

 

Geometric Constructions by Kathleen Julicher.

 

 

It would be easy to work through this in a summer. My highly v/s artsy-mathy daughter loved it.

 

hth,

Kathy

 

 

Thanks--I'll definitely take a look at this.

[Storm Bay]

Have you considered Right Start Geometry for a fun summer math? From what I understand it's pretty much all constructions, and is supposed to be a lead-in to algebra.

 

 

Is it as expensive as the courses for the younger dc? Is it as teacher intensive? We once bought a used RightStart Set (early level). I found it too teacher intensive at that stage and very pricey. I'll bet it's good, though, because I thought RightStart would make a great program for families where a highly teacher intensive programs work well. I like the fact that it's a lead in to Algebra, but I've already spent a good deal of money on high school curricula for my dd, even buying some of it used. And this is just for the first year.

[Joan in GE]

my Key to Geometry booklets without ever using them, because the constructions were so easy and not enriching.

 

We are using Jacobs Geometry at the minute but I also bought Discovering Geometry (since I don't get to go to curriculum fairs I wanted to at least see what it was) and I think that if you are looking for a less mathy but enriching geometry, then Discovering Geometry might be the book you are looking for. We occasionally look at it for alternative ways of looking at some type of problem. If you search old posts, I think people have written about it before...It is quite a thick book that goes into all kinds of aspects of geometry.

 

About doing Algebra or not...I think it is needed for chemistry and probably physics...

 

Best,

Joan

Edited March 29, 2009 by Joan in Geneva
clarification

[Matryoshka]

Is it as expensive as the courses for the younger dc? Is it as teacher intensive? We once bought a used RightStart Set (early level). I found it too teacher intensive at that stage and very pricey. I'll bet it's good, though, because I thought RightStart would make a great program for families where a highly teacher intensive programs work well. I like the fact that it's a lead in to Algebra, but I've already spent a good deal of money on high school curricula for my dd, even buying some of it used. And this is just for the first year.

 

I hadn't ever looked at price, but it looks a little less than the lower levels - $115 for the books and all the manipulatives, which are mostly drawing tools and I think some geometric solids? I think there are samples here.

 

As far as teacher-intensive, though, I know my friend's dd is using it completely independently. Actually, it says right in the website's description that it's independent:

 

"Learn intermediate mathematics hands-on and visually through geometry. With a tool set consisting of a drawing board, T-square, triangles, compass, and goniometer, the child explores trianges, area, volume, ratios, Pythagorean theorem, tiling, and other geometry concepts. New concepts are taught while practicing arithmetic, fractions, and decimals. Student works independently.

 

Various lessons are enhanced with internet activities."

[Storm Bay]

I hadn't ever looked at price, but it looks a little less than the lower levels - $115 for the books and all the manipulatives, which are mostly drawing tools and I think some geometric solids? I think there are samples here.

 

As far as teacher-intensive, though, I know my friend's dd is using it completely independently. Actually, it says right in the website's description that it's independent:

 

"Learn intermediate mathematics hands-on and visually through geometry. With a tool set consisting of a drawing board, T-square, triangles, compass, and goniometer, the child explores trianges, area, volume, ratios, Pythagorean theorem, tiling, and other geometry concepts. New concepts are taught while practicing arithmetic, fractions, and decimals. Student works independently.

 

Various lessons are enhanced with internet activities."

 

 

Thanks. I'll keep this in mind for future in case I need it for ds, but this year, that's more than I can spend on a supplement. The book Kathy recommended is about $13, which is more in my budget this year. I can't get it for free shipping, but it's still workable. I greatly reduce my usual budget, and, thankfully, I bought enough extra books with the economic incentive money that I can do that. Of course, I'll check for these things at used curricula sales.