KISS grammar

[cajun.classical]

I clearly have way too much time on my hands, but... tell me about KISS grammar. I really like the idea of analyzing real sentences. It seems a lot like the approach to grammar that CW has, but with much less time involved. The author says 5 minutes a day.

 

I'd love to hear what any users of KISS grammar have to say. Thanks.

[mom2abcd]

Bumping this for you.

 

The author says 5 minutes a day? I've read a lot on the yahoo group and am on his email list and have perused his website, but I never noticed that. It all seems very confusing to me. I guess I should just print out a workbook and go at it.

 

The five minute idea is encouraging. Where did you see that?

[Pata]

If you do a search on KISS grammar you can find some info. Also if you do a search on the Ambleside yahoo group, you can find more info. We are planning on trying this out next year, so I can't be of more help!

[Blessedfamily]

We used it this year with great success. The website is very confusing. Just print out the book you're going to use, and you will understand better.

 

My dd loved reading the stories and then using sentences from them to analyze. I'll tell you something, she went through the 2nd grade book and has a more solid grammar foundation than if I had used anything else. Don't let the Beatrix Potter stories fool you. He covers stuff that most other major grammars DO NOT cover at this stage.

 

For the summer, we're using another program to learn sentence diagramming. Because of what my dd learned with 2nd grade KISS, she is not learning anything new about the parts of speech, but she likes drawing the diagrams. She already knows the function of every single word in a sentence, and will even tell me if a sentence can be analyzed in more than one way (thanks to KISS).

 

If there is a weekness, I might say it's in the grammar usage. There wasn't as much about usage in the 2nd grade book. But really, I'm not sure this is much of a weakness compared to other 2nd grade texts. I think he may be laying the foundation for parts of speech first, and then brings in more usage later.

 

DH printed out the third grade book. I haven't read through it completely. It diverges from other grammars even more.

[Blessedfamily]

I looked through all the major grammars that I know of when I was trying to decide what to use with my dd.

 

I'll give you a small examples of the differences between Kiss and the others.

 

Most elementary grammars teach that an adverb is a word that describes a verb. When she looked through a fourth grade book that said that, my dd said "Well, they also modify adjectives, and other adverbs."

 

They also teach that adverbs answer, How, When, and Where. My dd says "...and why, how often..."

 

 

And don't even get me started on identifying complements. Predicate nouns, direct objects, predicate adjectives, indirect objects. A child who worked through KISS 2 can spot those a mile away.

 

I think many grammars assume it's easier to give basic info and save the rest for later years. This may actually be best in many cases, so I'm not knocking that approach. But for my dd who is very strong in grammar, the more complete info in KISS was a good fit.

Edited March 26, 2009 by Blessedfamily

[cajun.classical]

Thank you all for your replies. I did do a search both here and on AO and found lots of good stuff.

 

I don't remember where on the website, but the author says if you are spending more than 5 minutes analyzing sentences, then you are doing something wrong.

 

That's why KISS is popular among CM'ers. Short lessons using real literature. It really looks good.

 

I downloaded the second grade workbook for my 4th grader. We started it yesterday. One lesson only took a few minutes. And like others said, that 2nd grade book is LOADED. This is intense grammar presented systematically and in small bites.

 

I also liked the inclusion of punctuation exercises--something she wasn't getting in JAG.

[skaterbabs]

Does anyone have a link for this?

[cajun.classical]

Does anyone have a link for this?

 

Kiss Grammar

[skaterbabs]

Thank you!:001_smile:

[Hathersage]

if you need help figuring out the website, they have a yahoo group.

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/KISSGrammarGroup/

[PeterPan]

In looking at KISS right now, it seems quite similar to the Shurley that VP recommends... KISS seems to go further and use more advanced sentences (stronger vocabulary, etc.), but the basic approach is similar. I just thought that was funny, since you (Angelina) use so many of the VP recommends. It took us a while to get cozy with Shurley, but now we're there and happy. My dd has had no trouble with the grammar in Homer, so the principles must carry over well...

[Blessedfamily]

I don't remember where on the website, but the author says if you are spending more than 5 minutes analyzing sentences, then you are doing something wrong.

 

... This is intense grammar presented systematically and in small bites.

 

I also liked the inclusion of punctuation exercises--something she wasn't getting in JAG.

 

Yes. I forgot to add that. It only took a few minutes each day.

 

 

if you need help figuring out the website, they have a yahoo group.

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/KISSGrammarGroup/

 

Thank you because the website is so confusing to me. I had to email my dh twice to get him to the page where you download the book. (But I really appreciate the professor's hard work and generosity.)

 

 

In looking at KISS right now, it seems quite similar to the Shurley that VP recommends... KISS seems to go further and use more advanced sentences (stronger vocabulary, etc.), but the basic approach is similar. I just thought that was funny, since you (Angelina) use so many of the VP recommends. It took us a while to get cozy with Shurley, but now we're there and happy. My dd has had no trouble with the grammar in Homer, so the principles must carry over well...

 

I didn't get a good look at Shurley. I hope Rainbow Resource brings it to our homeschool convention.

 

I think the third grade is the last finshed book in KISS. Someone correct me please, If I'm mistaken.

[cajun.classical]

In looking at KISS right now, it seems quite similar to the Shurley that VP recommends... KISS seems to go further and use more advanced sentences (stronger vocabulary, etc.), but the basic approach is similar. I just thought that was funny, since you (Angelina) use so many of the VP recommends. It took us a while to get cozy with Shurley, but now we're there and happy. My dd has had no trouble with the grammar in Homer, so the principles must carry over well...

 

Well... if you must know ;) I used to love Shurley grammar--the first couple of years. But then it drove me crazy that it was basically the same stuff year and year. It just didn't go anywhere (part of the problem, I know, is that Shurley is designed in such a way that a new student in 5th grade can start on grade level. That's why there is so much repetition. KISS's levels are incremental and don't repeat. Master one level and then move onto the next.) KISS has everything I liked about Shurley and Analytical Grammar ( which is also similar to Shurley) plus it is based on real literature and doesn't have you repeating the same stuff over and over. I also like his approach to teaching some of the concepts as well. It reminds me a lot of how I used to teach grammar when I taught middle school. I just did my own thing because I hated the ABEKA text we used.

 

Also, Shurley uses canned textbook-type sentences. I like the idea of really wrestling with sentences and trying to understand how each word functions in the sentence. Often there is no easy answer.

 

But of course what I like most is that I can cover grammar in 5 minutes a day! I'm streamlining. I want to pull sentences from our other course work and analyze them--each child parsing the parts he or she has learned thus far.

 

Another plus is KISS is free and Shurley is pricey :D

 

I also want to add that there are some great essays on the KISS website as well. I especially liked one that argued that the best way to teach grammar to lower elementary is to READ, READ, READ.

[Blessedfamily]

Thanks for the review of Shirley. Going over the same material repeatedly drives my dd insane. Unfortunately, most of them do that.

[Hathersage]

And for grammar questions related to the KISS program, Dr. Vavra runs the kiss list, more information about how to join here:

http://home.pct.edu/~evavra/kiss/KISSList.htm

[PeterPan]

Angelina, that's actually why I went over to look at it (KISS)! We're finishing SG4, and I'm really up in the air about how to proceed. I either buy 6, which would have a lot of repetition and only a few things new for the almost $60, or I buy 7, whomp her with lots of new stuff, and have no where to go after that. I'm almost thinking of doing 7. KISS would be a good follow up to it, since it's the most sophisticated, contextualized study I've seen. And yes, while I know Shurley is textbooky and tight, I'm not sure I want to throw her a curve ball right now. This is the girl who HATED grammar 2 years ago. Now she loves it. I want to stay in the love category, even if it means keeping the progression light! She doesn't seem to have any problem applying what she knows to new situations and scenarios, even stuff she hasn't seen before.

 

What was mainly holding me back with 7 was the thought of having nothing suitable to go to after. The price on KISS certainly is enticing, but what is the timetable on the future levels?

 

And btw, you do know the author of Shurley encourages skipping levels?

[sweetbaby]

We use KISS grammar. I posted a long review on this forum about a week ago but here's a review on my blog also. The yahoo group is very helpful and the KISS List as well. You can email Dr. Vavra (email address on the site) to be added to the KISS List. He sends out updates and info along with his answers to posts/questions from other users. The more you navigate and read about KISS, the more you can better understand the approach but please feel free to read my review. I include links to very important pages.HTH.

 

BTW, grade 4 workbooks will be ready this fall.

Edited March 27, 2009 by sweetbaby

[Blessedfamily]

We use KISS grammar. I posted a long review on this forum about a week ago but here's a review on my blog also. The yahoo group is very helpful and the KISS List as well. You can email Dr. Vavra (email address on the site) to be added to the KISS List. He sends out updates and info along with his answers to posts/questions from other users. The more you navigate and read about KISS, the more you can better understand the approach but please feel free to read my review. I include links to very important pages.HTH.

 

BTW, grade 4 workbooks will be ready this fall.

 

Thanks, Kysha. I think I'm going to look into this. I didn't know you use KISS too!:001_smile:

[sweetbaby]

Thanks, Kysha. I think I'm going to look into this. I didn't know you use KISS too!:001_smile:

 

Yes, we made the switch from R&S English this year. I had been searching for alternative grammar programs because my dc just weren't retaining enough info using R&S after the daily oral drills, written exercises, etc. I called them daily workouts. R&S is a great program but I love the KISS analytical approach to grammar. It really makes my dc think each time they view a sentence. I had been reading the site's info for months but made the switch after I had joined the yahoo group and KISS List.

[shanvan]

did you use it as your only grammar curriculum? I just looked at this today and wondered if I would combine it with what we are currently doing, or use it on it's own.

 

I love the use of Beatrix Potter stories. We just completed Calvert's Beatrix Potter enrichment course and my daughter's 4h presentation was about Beatrix Potter. We are all kind of obsessed fans.

 

Shannon

[Alison in KY]

Can you put a link directly to the grade 3 workbook? I couldn't see where it was.

 

Man what a confusing place, but I'm glad it's free (except for the tons of paper I'm printing now).

 

Alison

[Alison in KY]

I may have just figured it out. I wonder if an Easy Grammar workbook will be cheaper to buy vs. printing these pages off? Anyone?

[cajun.classical]

We use KISS grammar. I posted a long review on this forum about a week ago but here's a review on my blog also. The yahoo group is very helpful and the KISS List as well. You can email Dr. Vavra (email address on the site) to be added to the KISS List. He sends out updates and info along with his answers to posts/questions from other users. The more you navigate and read about KISS, the more you can better understand the approach but please feel free to read my review. I include links to very important pages.HTH.

 

BTW, grade 4 workbooks will be ready this fall.

 

Kysha,

 

It was reading your blog entry that intrigued me enough to start poking around the website. I have been a grammar teacher for ages and I experienced many of the same complaints Dr. Vavra did about the teaching of grammar. His approach and philosophy really resonated with me. And since his materials are available for FREE, I've got nothing to lose!

[cajun.classical]

Can you put a link directly to the grade 3 workbook? I couldn't see where it was.

 

Man what a confusing place, but I'm glad it's free (except for the tons of paper I'm printing now).

 

Alison

 

Alison,

 

I don't know what grade your dc are, but you may want to consider starting with the 2nd grade workbook. Each level is incremental and the 3rd grade book assumes the 2nd grade knowledge.

 

And the 2nd grade book is NOT baby at all. The concepts covered in that workbook are the exact concepts covered in JAG (4th and 5th grades). My daughter switched from JAG to KISS, so I went with with the 2nd grade book. She has no idea what level the book is. The exercises are challenging. And I should point out that the 3rd grade workbook covers advanced concepts, including some I have NEVER seen covered in high school grammar. We are going to move as quickly as we can through the 2nd grade book, parking ourselves on any concepts she struggles with. There's no rush to get to that 3rd grade book.

 

Scroll down this link until you get to the workbooks. Click on doc to download.

Edited March 27, 2009 by cajun.classical

[skaterbabs]

Angelina, would the first level be too advanced for a 1st grader? (2nd g. reading level.)

[cajun.classical]

Angelina, would the first level be too advanced for a 1st grader? (2nd g. reading level.)

 

Probably. The author doesn't recommend starting before 2nd grade. You might be able to introduce some of the concepts, like picking out subjects and verbs and just move very very slowly. Choosing sentences from your reading or copywork and asking your child to identify the subject and verb of each sentence--spending about 5 minutes a day.

 

I wouldn't try to do the whole workbook though.

[sweetbaby]

Alison,

 

I don't know what grade your dc are, but you may want to consider starting with the 2nd grade workbook. Each level is incremental and the 3rd grade book assumes the 2nd grade knowledge.

 

And the 2nd grade book is NOT baby at all. The concepts covered in that workbook are the exact concepts covered in JAG (4th and 5th grades). My daughter switched from JAG to KISS, so I went with with the 2nd grade book. She has no idea what level the book is. The exercises are challenging. And I should point out that the 3rd grade workbook covers advanced concepts, including some I have NEVER seen covered in high school grammar. We are going to move as quickly as we can through the 2nd grade book, parking ourselves on any concepts she struggles with. There's no rush to get to that 3rd grade book.

 

Scroll down this link until you get to the workbooks. Click on doc to download.

 

:iagree: KISS is cumulative. I wouldn't skip around.

Edited March 27, 2009 by sweetbaby

[sweetbaby]

did you use it as your only grammar curriculum? I just looked at this today and wondered if I would combine it with what we are currently doing, or use it on it's own.

 

 

Shannon,

You could use it either way. I know some who use it as the main grammar curriculum and some use it as a supplement. It's our main grammar curriculum here.

[skaterbabs]

Thanks! Up until now we've not done any formal instruction with DD, so I'm still feeling my way through what we need to do and what can wait.

[Carmen_and_Company]

I used KISS Grammar with my eldest years ago--it's been around for at least 10 years. We then moved on to Stewart English, and he did extremely well on the ACT with a score of 30 for LA subsets. Keep in mind, my eldest is a science/math geek and hates anything dealing with writing or grammar. KISS Grammar was the only program I did not get minute-by-minute complaints. If you check the old WTM boards & search KISS Grammar, you may find my old cached postings from 2000 through 2005ish.

 

I copied out the workbooks, answer keys and teaching information & placed it all in a huge binder. It's over 300 pages. I then copied lessons for the week. I still have the binder, but found AG provides what my dd needs for grammar instruction. If I find Storm needs additional help with a concept, I may revisit KISS for supplemental work.

 

Oh, make sure you do the pre-work lessons that the KISS author created from the Kellogg Elementary Grammar text. There are 30 lessons that quickly introduce the student to all parts of speech, subject & predicate, and I think basic puncuation & capitalization rules.

Edited March 27, 2009 by Carmen_and_Company

[shanvan]

I looked and did not see the 'pre-work' lessons. Could it be that these are in level 1 workbook?

 

Where are the answer keys? Are they within the workbooks?

 

TIA

 

Thanks, Angelina, for answering my past questions!

 

 

Shannon

[cajun.classical]

I looked and did not see the 'pre-work' lessons. Could it be that these are in level 1 workbook?

 

Where are the answer keys? Are they within the workbooks?

 

TIA

 

Thanks, Angelina, for answering my past questions!

 

 

Shannon

 

Dr. Vavra revamped the website and moved items around, grouped by levels. I think if you just follow the sequence on the website, you'll be good. And of course the graded workbooks are new and super easy to follow as well.

 

And yes, the answer keys are in the workbooks as are the instructional materials.

[shanvan]

:Angel_anim: Your name fits!

 

Shannon

[sweetbaby]

Kysha,

 

It was reading your blog entry that intrigued me enough to start poking around the website. I have been a grammar teacher for ages and I experienced many of the same complaints Dr. Vavra did about the teaching of grammar. His approach and philosophy really resonated with me. And since his materials are available for FREE, I've got nothing to lose!

 

I have no grammar background (RN here) but Dr. Vavra's approached intrigued me also. It seems very logical. I'm so glad that my post has helped someone. :)

[Virginia Heather]

So... to use the graded levels, are you guys just printing the entire thing out, w/ the intention of handing your dc 1 page at a time??

 

I figured you could use page protectors (and the child could write on them w/ dry erase markers) so you don't have to print copies for each child. Are any of you doing this?? If not, how are you making it work best??

[Pata]

Angelina-

 

Are you doing KISS along with CW Homer or with Aesop too? Just curious. I like the look of KISS and I want to start using it slowly next year, but I'm also planning on using CW primers and then on through (hopefully!). Just wondering how you mesh the two. Thanks!

[cajun.classical]

Angelina-

 

Are you doing KISS along with CW Homer or with Aesop too? Just curious. I like the look of KISS and I want to start using it slowly next year, but I'm also planning on using CW primers and then on through (hopefully!). Just wondering how you mesh the two. Thanks!

 

Paige,

Yes and no. I am not coordinating the two or anything like that.

 

I think that the philosophies of the two are very compatible, but I prefer the slower pace of KISS. The grammar in CW is a little too intense too early for me. So, what I am doing right now is applying whatever the KISS lesson is to CW. Right now, we are doing CW Poetry. This week I had my dc circle every noun in the poem--which can be pretty difficult--and then find every subject and verb--also very difficult in a poem. We had to think.

 

In the fall when we start up Homer and Diogenes, I think I'll do something similar. I'll spend some time this summer thinking about it.

 

That said, the second grade KISS workbook will be more than adequate for Aesop.

 

I'm still thinking through all this, but at this point I am going to let the KISS pace determine what grammar concepts we use in CW. It shouldn't be hard. CW teaches to black out parts of a sentence that you haven't learned yet and just parse the parts you do know.

 

HTH>

 

ETA: the lessons REALLY are taking us only 5 minutes!

Edited April 2, 2009 by cajun.classical

[sweetbaby]

So... to use the graded levels, are you guys just printing the entire thing out, w/ the intention of handing your dc 1 page at a time??

 

I figured you could use page protectors (and the child could write on them w/ dry erase markers) so you don't have to print copies for each child. Are any of you doing this?? If not, how are you making it work best??

 

I download and save the workbooks then print the sheets or worksheets needed only. I just received a industrial type of all in one printer yesterday so I may print the entire workbook now.

[Pata]

Thanks! I appreciate you thoughts.