Writing ability of 16 year olds

[Laura Corin]

Apologies for posting here - I don't have high school age children. Calvin is reasoning at a high level and I was wondering about putting him in for a classical civilisation exam that is taken by sixteen year olds in the UK. I finally decided against it, because I assumed that his writing skills just weren't ready. This is absolutely not a problem - I feel no need to push him beyond his abilities.

 

Anyway, the online tutor had a look at a piece that Calvin wrote (entirely independently), and said he'd be fine for the exam. This is a tutor whom some online friends have used and been happy with. I was quite shocked that what he had written was considered adequate, so I thought I'd ask you:

 

"Carnegie... was no better than an outlaw.. [he] had stolen the work of others and taken it for himself." Discuss

 

Andrew Carnegie was the richest man in the world of his time. He made his money in the steel industry and then did something almost unprecedented: he gave it all away. He built libraries, opera houses, church organs, you name it. Yet despite being the biggest philanthropist of his time, he had a downside as well.

 

Carnegie revolutionised the steel industry by finding out what actually happened inside a blast furnace. Thus he created the American steel industry almost from scratch. At the beginning of the American Civil War, America imported all of its steel rails. By 1873, the US was producing 115 000 tons of steel. This was all due to Carnegie. As well as increasing output, Carnegie upped the quality of steel. His company set the standards for steel price and quality.

 

With the money ($477 million) from the sale of his company, Carnegie started donating. He constructed thousands of libraries, which had not been available before. He commissioned Carnegie Hall, a prestigious concert venue in New York. He also bought organs for churches across the country.

 

Not everyone thought kindly of Carnegie, though. Some argued that the only reason he was so rich in the first place was because he had spent years underpaying his steelworkers. Carnegie countered with an amazing declaration. He said that rich people were smarter than poor ones - that was how they got rich. Therefore, rich people had a duty to the poor to help them.

 

There is no doubt that Andrew Carnegie was a genius. That does not necessarily mean that he was a good man, though. On balance, he was a scheming trickster who maneged [sic] to win the cupboard love of his generation purely by cunning.

 

Bibliography: The Story of the World, Volume 4 by Susan Wise Bauer; A History of US, Volume 8, by Joy Hakim; A History of the American People, by Paul Johnson

[HollyinNNV]

This is a challenging question. What is the writing ability of the typical 16 year old? And we are talking about 16 year olds in England, right?

 

I teach at a writing co-op. Calvin's writing is very typical of the 12 year olds that I teach. However, they are students that have been taking writing and practicing writing for 3-4 years (with me). He is nowhere near my 14-17 year old students. However, these are pretty advanced high schoolers and so I am having a hard time since I really don't have a basis for comparison.

 

A lot of development occurs in 12-14 year old writers. Your child is definitely on the right track. I'd say it is very, very good 12 year old writing. For my group, he is not yet a "high school writer."

 

HTH,

Holly

[Laura Corin]

A lot of development occurs in 12-14 year old writers. Your child is definitely on the right track. I'd say it is very, very good 12 year old writing. For my group, he is not yet a "high school writer."

 

 

Those were my thoughts: he's doing fine for a twelve year old, but he's not at a high school level. Hmmmm....

 

Laura

[Guest Dulcimeramy]

Those were my thoughts: he's doing fine for a twelve year old, but he's not at a high school level. Hmmmm....

 

Laura

 

My twelve year old son writes in a very similar manner with a nearly identical skill level.

[Laura Corin]

My twelve year old son writes in a very similar manner with a nearly identical skill level.

 

Laura

[Reya]

I wouldn't take that from a 16-y-o. I wouldn't even score it well for a 12-y-o--the development of the argument was very poor. (Sorry!!!!) He's got a lot of facts there, and the mechanics are pretty good, but the information has little function in the essay.

 

It didn't even speak to the MAIN reason Carnegie could be considered a "thief," which was essentially by corporate espionage.

[Laura Corin]

I wouldn't take that from a 16-y-o. I wouldn't even score it well for a 12-y-o--the development of the argument was very poor. (Sorry!!!!) He's got a lot of facts there, and the mechanics are pretty good, but the information has little function in the essay.

 

It didn't even speak to the MAIN reason Carnegie could be considered a "thief," which was essentially by corporate espionage.

 

As I said, that was what he produced on his own. We went on to work on it.

 

Laura

[Reya]

As I said, that was what he produced on his own. We went on to work on it.

 

Laura

 

Of course! :-)

[plansrme]

Well, not necessarily the dissent, but I thought the consensus in a recent discussion of AP exams is that the graders were looking for solid, substantive answers, not necessarily writing style.

 

I don't think it's fair to compare his off-the-cuff first draft to a polished, out-of-class piece one would expect from a 16 yo. If this is like an AP exam, a polished piece is not even what the 16 yos will be submitting for the exam. They, too, will be scrambling to quickly write relatively coherent responses that demonstrate mastery of the subject matter, rather than exceptional writing ability.

 

If the tutor thinks he can do it, and you think he has the substantive knowledge, I would let him try.

 

Terri

[Annie N]

What would be the effect if he tried at this age? How would it help him? Could it hurt him to take the test and do badly?

 

If it would help him in some way, and not hurt him if he did badly, why not let him take the test? The tutor probably has a much better idea of what is going on with these tests than we do...

[LoriM]

My daughter is currently illustrating a children's book that was written by an AP Creative Writing student at our local high school. The writing *horrified* us. It wasn't stylistic in its simplicity; it was ungrammatical, had no flow and little plot, and was just horrid. The writer was 18. Had we not known that, I might have mistaken it for a draft (not even finished, polished) work of a very young child, possible 2nd grade.

 

Anyway...writing standards vary widely. If the test won't count against him or limit his options, and can simply be considered a "trial run" if he doesn't score well, then I'd let him try. After all, we test early and often on things like the ACT or SAT here for that very reason. :)

[Laura Corin]

I talked to a friend today who marks a similar exam for history. She said that writing style is only a very minor part of the marking - instead, they want to see that the student has the knowledge and can apply it. I think what the tutor saw in Calvin's writing was that he could get facts down on paper. The exam doesn't require a full-length essay, but instead a long paragraph or two. The required answers are only a bit longer than those for the same-level biology exam he took last year.

 

How would it help him? What we discovered when he took the last exam was that he really thrives on external goals. He worked diligently and achieved the highest possible mark for it. The class civ exam would be a way to give him a goal in a subject that he enjoys.

 

I suspect we should go ahead.

 

Thanks to all

 

Laura

[Reya]

Creative writing is usually appalling at any age in school. *shudders*

[Reya]

I'd be more unsure of the tutor than him, honestly.

 

The kid can write and can organize his thoughts--there was an underlying structure there. He just didn't address the prompt. On an AP exam, that'd kill him.

 

The tutor should know better. He shouldn't have been distracted by the facts into not noticing that the actual topic was only glancingly addressed.

 

If this person has had good results in the past and thinks this is a good STARTING place, then I wouldn't be very worried, then. :-)

[Michelle in MO]

I'd be more unsure of the tutor than him, honestly.

 

The kid can write and can organize his thoughts--there was an underlying structure there. He just didn't address the prompt. On an AP exam, that'd kill him.

 

The tutor should know better. He shouldn't have been distracted by the facts into not noticing that the actual topic was only glancingly addressed.

 

If this person has had good results in the past and thinks this is a good STARTING place, then I wouldn't be very worried, then. :-)

Reya,

 

From your signature line, your children are still very young. Are you speaking of your own experience with AP prompts?

 

This is the high school board; those of us who post here generally have children in high school, or, like Laura, we have children who are close to going to high school and we're trying to prepare them for that experience. I think you have a few years yet. ;)

Edited March 20, 2009 by Michelle in MO

[Ria]

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Edited March 20, 2009 by Ria

[Karenciavo]

I talked to a friend today who marks a similar exam for history. She said that writing style is only a very minor part of the marking - instead, they want to see that the student has the knowledge and can apply it. I think what the tutor saw in Calvin's writing was that he could get facts down on paper. The exam doesn't require a full-length essay, but instead a long paragraph or two. The required answers are only a bit longer than those for the same-level biology exam he took last year.

 

Are the facts he included considered enough?

[Laura Corin]

Are the facts he included considered enough?

 

The exam has a very tight and specific curriculum which requires detailed knowledge - he did fine getting to that level with biology last year, so I'm not worried on that score.

 

Laura

[Reya]

Reya,

 

From your signature line, your children are still very young. Are you speaking of your own experience with AP prompts?

 

This is the high school board; those of us who post here generally have children in high school, or, like Laura, we have children who are close to going to high school and we're trying to prepare them for that experience. I think you have a few years yet. ;)

 

I took many exams, and it wasn't all THAT long ago, but mainly, I'm speaking from reading example essay grading criteria online. They give examples and scores for each example and explain why the score is what it is. It gives me much better info than a single data point of, say, my personal experiences (even if my tests had been this spring!), especially since my scores were tightly clustered. FWIW, style only really matters in English and the foreign languages....

 

I've been keeping up because it's easier than trying to start over from scratch when the time comes!

 

Actually, that's the BEST recommendation--to go look at the graded essays the College Board has released, like I do. I don't have them bookmarked--they were on my old computer, and I didn't import--but they shouldn't be too hard to find.

[Laura Corin]

I'd be more unsure of the tutor than him, honestly.

 

The kid can write and can organize his thoughts--there was an underlying structure there. He just didn't address the prompt. On an AP exam, that'd kill him.

 

 

The equivalent of the AP exam is taken at age 18 in the UK. This is more like a SAT II test, except that it is answered in continuous prose, rather than with a multi-choice.

 

Laura

[jellogirl]

He made his money in the steel industry and then did something almost unprecedented: he gave it all away.

 

He certainly has much that can be improved with practice and maturity, but I don't know very many 16-year-olds who use colons to join clauses.

[Laura Corin]

He certainly has much that can be improved with practice and maturity, but I don't know very many 16-year-olds who use colons to join clauses.

 

When he was about seven he brought me a book that he was reading. He pointed at a sentence and said that there should be 'one of those two dot thingies there.' I hadn't formally taught him how colons were used, but he'd developed a feel for them from his reading.

 

Laura

[plimsoll]

...and said he'd be fine for the exam.

 

Are there study guides or practice tests available for this exam? that might make it easier to decide....

[Laura Corin]

Are there study guides or practice tests available for this exam? that might make it easier to decide....

 

Looking through them, the writing requirements are barely greater than for the bio exam he took last year, so I think we'll go ahead.

 

Thank you

 

Laura

[cajun.classical]

Laura,

 

I've only scanned the other replies and this might not be helpful to you at all, but I thought I'd throw it out there. I used to teach AP English and I was often surprised to find that writing I didn't think was particularly good got quite high scores on the AP exam. Students of mine who received C's from me often scored perfect scores on the AP exam.

 

Why? Well, I finally concluded that the graders read so much, so fast that they often give a score based on an impression of the writing. They just don't have time to closely exam the writing. If the essay gives the impression that the writer knows what he is talking about and has presented it coherently, then it receives a good score. I guess I'm trying to say that a good standardized test score and a good essay are not necessarily the same thing. Sad, but true. So, even if you think that what your son wrote was not that great, perhaps it is good enough to score well.

 

Another thing to consider is that the grader will (they can't help it) compare the essay to the other peer essays, rather than to a model of good writing in his head. Does that make sense?

 

I don't know if it is the same in the UK, so take my thoughts with many grains of salt. I guess I just sympathize with your tutor friend. I can see myself reading something that was only adequate and saying, yep that would score well--even if I didn't think it was exceptional.

 

Just another perspective.

[Laura Corin]

Thanks - that was helpful.

 

Laura

[Laura Corin]

Just a follow-up to thank everyone for their input. I had good feedback about the tutor from others who had used her, and finally decided to go ahead. Calvin adores the course and is working really hard at it - his writing is coming along well and he's doing a great job at including all the detail that the exam requires. He just had five assignments marked (she seems to mark his in batches) and got 100% for every one!

 

Thanks again

 

Laura

Edited June 9, 2009 by Laura Corin

[Kareni]

I'm glad to hear that it's going well. Good for Calvin!

 

Regards,

Kareni

[Willow]

keep us posted, and let us know how he does in the exam!

 

I've always had a fellow feeling for you...my ds (now 12) left school at almost 9. I asked about his non reading and lack of maths skills and the teacher said "well, what can you expect with learning difficulties like his" :confused:

 

He came out a few weeks before his 9th birthday and over the next few months (we had to de-school for a while, he was deeply traumatized...long story) taught himself to read using CALVIN AND HOBBES.

 

So I always look out for you because of your kids pseudonyms!

[Laura Corin]

 

I've always had a fellow feeling for you...my ds (now 12) left school at almost 9. I asked about his non reading and lack of maths skills and the teacher said "well, what can you expect with learning difficulties like his" :confused:

 

He came out a few weeks before his 9th birthday and over the next few months (we had to de-school for a while, he was deeply traumatized...long story) taught himself to read using CALVIN AND HOBBES.

 

 

I was told, when Calvin was in school at age five, that with his dyspraxia he would never learn to write decently and would be using a keyboard full time by the age of ten.

 

I started home educating him when he was six, and by the time he was ten he had perfectly decent, if slightly slow, handwriting. At eleven he was passing IGCSE biology (hand written) with flying colours.

 

I realise now that what the school was really saying was, 'Given the [lack of] resources available, we have no way of helping him to fulfil his potential, so he will continue to struggle instead.' I'm so glad I pulled him out.

 

ETA: Yes, I'll announce here when we have exam results (next summer). So far, he is averaging 91% on his tutor-marked assignments, which would translate into a very easy top grade, but producing those results in an exam is a completely different skill. Still, he seems to do well in exams, from past showing, so there's hope.

 

Best wishes

 

Laura

Edited June 9, 2009 by Laura Corin

[Willow]

That is good to hear Laura, well done to both you and Calvin. :)

 

Ds is doing well now, so well that I begin to wonder if far from being 'slow' he is actually quite bright. (Of course there never was a boy like mine, he is the most wonderful, caring, talented child the universe could ever produce, only kids who can touch him are his siblings...:tongue_smilie:)

 

I don't now know if he just needed time to grow, or if school was a place he was unable to learn or if they didn't, as you feel, simply have the time and resources to teach him. Thank God for homeschooling.