Thoughts on Saxon Math 7/6

[TwinMom2013]

Hello Educators ✋,

   I am re-entering the Homeschool world with 11 year old twins. They would be entering 6th grade in the Fall which is the first year of middle school in our neck of the woods. We homeschooled during the 2020-2021 school year, which was their 2nd grade year and we really enjoyed it. The only part of curriculum selection that is giving me pause is Math. My twins both tested as gifted (exceedingly sensitive and bright) and were promoted to Pre-Algebra for their sixth grade year. I used Saxon Math's placement test and found that there were some skills they didn't have on board yet and ultimately the placement put them in Saxon's Math 7/6 to begin. How does everyone feel about Saxon? Do you feel it was rigorous and well made? I'd really like something that is as independent-study-like as math can be at this age. I think my kiddos would appreciate that. How much time do you dedicate to math day-to-day in 6th grade? I welcome your wisdom. Thank you!

[HomeAgain]

7/6 is a very solid program and will definitely teach skills well.

For us, it would not have been a good fit.  The amount of written work involved with several problems each day was not something my child would have needed to fully understand a concept.  While we did spend 1-1.5h a day on math in 6th, about the same as Saxon lessons, that consisted of a variety of work from hands on, open ended questions to a full algebra program done daily.  When he needed a quick tap into a topic, we used Math Mammoth (I have the pdfs). 

I am so glad Saxon was on the market for early homeschoolers.  I'm also glad that there is a full variety for kids who really enjoy math: Beast Academy, Math Mammoth, Jousting Armadillos...and that most are written to the student now.

[stlily]

Saxon is an EXCELLENT math curriculum. It is rigorous and it prepares students well for advanced mathematics and college. Lessons take an average of 45 minutes, but some can take longer. We have made the decision in our homeschool to give math the time it needs because we think it's worth it and Saxon produces results. My children do math independently beginning with Saxon 5/4, of course I'm always there to help as needed. We purchased the Saxon Teacher CD's for each level and my kids go to the videos when they need further explanation. If you're child/children have taken the placement test, my understanding is it's pretty accurate. You might want to see if the website has sample lessons  you can download for your kids to try. 🙂

[Green Bean]

Beast Academy is something you should check out. It is designed for gifted out of the box thinkers.

Saxon is well-regarded as the Gold Standard of them all. To many it is THE math to use, but for others it should be burned while roasting marshmellows on its embers. You either love it or hate it. Mine hate it.

[Lori D.]

On 7/17/2024 at 1:40 PM, TwinMom2013 said:

... My twins both tested as gifted (exceedingly sensitive and bright) and were promoted to Pre-Algebra for their sixth grade year. I used Saxon Math's placement test and found that there were some skills they didn't have on board yet and ultimately the placement put them in Saxon's Math 7/6 to begin...

Placement tests are helpful and usually on-target, so if your DDs placed into Saxon 7/6, then that would be good to start them there. You can always accelerate through the parts they already know and treat that as a quick review, and then slow down and take your time in the parts that they are not familiar with or need work in. 

On 7/17/2024 at 1:40 PM, TwinMom2013 said:

...How does everyone feel about Saxon? Do you feel it was rigorous and well made? ...

"feel about it"... Saxon is a good fit for some, and not a fit at all for others
"is it rigorous"... no, not rigorous*, but it is thorough and complete.
"is it well-made"... yes; again, thorough and complete, with multiple teaching aids available, and it has been around for decades

* defining my terms here = rigorous math includes problem-solving that develops advanced problem-solving and application of conceptual understanding; that is not Saxon's teaching style -- Art of Problem Solving math would be the program most considered in homeschooling circles as "rigorous" by that definition

Students who do tend to fit well with Saxon:
- learn well with a traditional style of instruction
- learn well with a more abstract, algorithm-based approach
- tend to not need help or tutoring to learn math
- learn well with a more "spiral" approach -- each lesson is a tiny incremental "bite" of instruction on 1-3 topics with lots of practice and review of past concepts, and then the program spirals back around to the next "bite" of instruction on that topic anywhere from 2-8 lessons later... rinse... repeat

Students who do NOT tend to fit well with Saxon:
- best learn math with more of a "mastery" style of presentation and build up lessons
- best learn math with more of a "discovery" style of presentation
- need concrete / tangible connections and explanations of math concepts
- do not need the amount of exercises/review, or get easily bored or frustrated with a large amount of exercises/review in practicing the math concepts

For honesty, I will disclose that Saxon was NOT a fit for our family for multiple reasons:
- me = did NOT fit my teaching style and needs
- DS#1 = math-minded, the breaking into tiny incremental bites and excessive review was killing his love of math; he needs more conceptual and problem-solving based, rather than algorithm-based
- DS#2 = math-struggler, needed concrete presentation (Saxon is abstract in equation-based presentation); the sheer number of problems on a page was far too overwhelming for him to even begin to deal with; and, he needed a workbook-based program even up through high school -- his LDs made it next to impossible for him to correctly copy the problems out of the textbook onto paper
 

On 7/17/2024 at 1:40 PM, TwinMom2013 said:

... I'd really like something that is as independent-study-like as math can be at this age. I think my kiddos would appreciate that. How much time do you dedicate to math day-to-day in 6th grade? I welcome your wisdom. Thank you!

re: independent-study math
Just a side note -- IMO, if a student is struggling with a subject, then independent working is never helpful, no matter what the age or how much we want them to work independently -- that is when the student needs MORE of our time and mentoring.

However, that doesn't sound like that's the case for your DDs. 😉 So, if mostly working on their own is a good fit for your DDs, then yes, Saxon would fit easily into independent learning. As mentioned up-thread, there are videos and other helps if the student gets stuck.  

re: how much time do you dedicate to math day-to-day in 6th grade
That will vary, depending on what the individual student can handle.

How much time did we schedule daily for 6th grade math:
- math-minded DS#1 could go for about 40 minutes; we would stop then to keep him still enjoying math, rather than work till "burn out"
- math-struggler DS#2 could only handle a maximum of about 30 minutes before brain shut-down

how much time Saxon lessons take:
As described upthread, starting at around 7/6 and then above, Saxon lessons usually take 45-60 minutes per day.

(Side note: in the high school levels, I have seen people on these boards say their student took 90 minutes to 2 hours on Saxon per day, to finish one lesson per day.  JMO, but if Saxon, or ANY math program, were taking much longer than 1 hour a day, I would be looking for something that is a better fit for the student so that the student would have brain energy for all of the other things that need to happen in high school...)

 

some general unsolicited advice/thoughts 😉 
I have seen that there is a "point of diminishing returns" with learning, especially with math and writing. At 6th grade, depending on the subject and depending on the student, that is usually between 25-45 minutes (at a single session or sitting). When the student hits that upper end of that time, if there is still work to do, they start to slow way down, and it takes much more time to do just a little bit more work. IMO, it is no longer worth it to push and finish the last 3-4 math problems if it takes 20-30 minutes to do them -- when the student was able to read/absorb the lesson info and do the first 20 problems in 40 minutes.

Again, JMO: if the math lessons were consistently taking an hour a day at 6th grade, I'd consider an alternative:

- break it in to smaller "bite size" chunks of learning rather than trying to knock it out in one long sitting and avoiding "diminishing returns" -- so maybe try scheduling 2 shorter sessions of math per day, so the student is "fresh" and faster for each -- like, 25 minutes in the morning, and then 20 minutes in the afternoon

- "loop" the math lessons (stopping the lesson after about 40 minutes of work, and then picking it up the next day where the student left off, finish the lesson, and then start the next lesson, working until hitting 40 minutes -- rinse. repeat)

- or switch to a math program that is just as effective and a good fit, but more streamlined so that the student could successfully finish the daily lesson in about 40 minutes

 

WELCOME to the WTM boards, and back to homeschooling. BEST of luck in finding the math that is the best fit for your family. And ENJOY your middle school homeschooling adventures!  Warmest regards, Lori D.

Edited July 21 by Lori D.

[EKS]

If they are gifted, you might want to consider something other than Saxon.  It can be soul crushing with the incessant practice.  And since the practice is what sets Saxon apart, if you remove it, you end up getting a mediocre math program.

If they are ready for prealgebra, you might want to look at the Derek Owens prealgebra course.  It does a review of arithmetic with forays into algebra as appropriate.  My gifted kid loved it.  It can be done independently by students with good executive functioning (which is needed to do any program independently regardless of what it is).

Edited July 24 by EKS

[TwinMom2013]

Thank you all for your insight on selecting a Math program for my learners. I really appreciate the help. I'll report back in the coming weeks on what we've settled on. 

[Malam]

For your specific case, I would look at Math Mammoth blue series - these are open-and-go worktexts on specific math topics, so your kids can focus on their weaknesses without having to repeat 6th grade topics they already know. They're also written to the student, so fairly independent-study-like.

Edited July 24 by Malam

[TwinMom2013]

Thanks again everyone. I am currently going back and forth between Math Mammoth and the Art of Problem Solving. If you have time, would you all be able to share why you'd pick one over the other? 

[HomeAgain]

4 minutes ago, TwinMom2013 said:

Thanks again everyone. I am currently going back and forth between Math Mammoth and the Art of Problem Solving. If you have time, would you all be able to share why you'd pick one over the other? 

I've done both.  Between the two, I'd choose Math Mammoth for your kids.  It has some serious pros that would work in your favor:

1. It's written to the student and they can work through mostly independently when it comes to the exercises.
2. It's training in how to think through math conceptually and critically.  As in, it provides direct guidance for the student in how to think through problems.
3. It allows you to go deeper if/when a student wants, with occasional challenge problems within each lesson.

Art of Problem Solving's Pre-algebra is a deep end book.  You, as the adult, want to be fairly adept at helping them slow down, gather evidence, and think through it.  It's quite challenging - and if your students are not accustomed to this level of work, you will all suffer.  Your best bet would be to get a Beast Academy 5 book set A and give it a go together as enrichment.  Beast is by AoPS, but cuter and friendlier looking on the surface.  It is still extremely challenging - even book 5 for 6th graders.  Frankly, I have freshmen look at book 4 and raise their eyebrows, but can tackle it gamely. 

[wendyroo]

Have you considered Thinkwell?

I have four very advanced math students. They have all done Math Mammoth, so I think it is a great program…but if you start at the pre-algebra level then you will have to choose a different curriculum next year. 

I would never use Saxon. 

I have used AOPS, but for the reasons HomeAgain mentioned, I would hesitate to recommend it. I tried using AOPS pre-algebra with my oldest, and it was a complete disaster…despite him being so mathy that he completed AP Calculus BC with a score of 5 last year as a ninth grader. 

I need to make a math change for next year, and after a ton of research I have decided to use Thinkwell for both of my younger kids. 

[Ellie]

On 7/17/2024 at 3:40 PM, TwinMom2013 said:

Hello Educators ✋,

   I am re-entering the Homeschool world with 11 year old twins. They would be entering 6th grade in the Fall which is the first year of middle school in our neck of the woods. We homeschooled during the 2020-2021 school year, which was their 2nd grade year and we really enjoyed it. The only part of curriculum selection that is giving me pause is Math. My twins both tested as gifted (exceedingly sensitive and bright) and were promoted to Pre-Algebra for their sixth grade year. I used Saxon Math's placement test and found that there were some skills they didn't have on board yet and ultimately the placement put them in Saxon's Math 7/6 to begin. How does everyone feel about Saxon? Do you feel it was rigorous and well made? I'd really like something that is as independent-study-like as math can be at this age. I think my kiddos would appreciate that. How much time do you dedicate to math day-to-day in 6th grade? I welcome your wisdom. Thank you!

Saxon is an excellent series. As long as your dc do all the problems in every problem set, they'll get an excellent math education.

I once went to a Christian school convention (ACSI), and helped a friend who was representing Saxon in the exhibit hall. There was a long line of teachers all day, every day, raving about how well their students did when they switched to Saxon: more students getting better math scores on standardized tests, more students taking more advanced maths, more students doing more math in college. If I were hsing again, I wouldn't hesitate to lead my dc to Saxon.

[TwinMom2013]

I'd also like to add that my twins are coming from a public school and learned well with Envision Math. They scored straight A's and seemed at ease with Math, even going to so far as to proclaim that Math is their favorite subject. 😮

[Green Bean]

Math Mammoth Light Blue, but use the placement tests.

I wouldn't take thier scores coming from any public school program as an accurate indicator of ability or learning.

Edited August 7 by Green Bean

[HomeAgain]

On 8/1/2024 at 4:31 PM, TwinMom2013 said:

I'd also like to add that my twins are coming from a public school and learned well with Envision Math. They scored straight A's and seemed at ease with Math, even going to so far as to proclaim that Math is their favorite subject. 😮

That's great.  Art of Problem Solving Pre-Algebra will kick them from here to the moon and back again. It's a lovely program for children who are ready for it.  It is a terrible program to jump into from anything that Pearson/Savvas puts out.  EnVision is focused on the middle ground, public school student who will be taking an end of year assessment put out by Pearson/Savvas. It is not meant to be challenging, and in fact has a lack of challenging material in its pages.  It is meant to get students to a middle of the road.  The fact that your children did well with it means they are ready for more critical thinking skills.  I very much worry about them jumping into something like AoPS, though.

[TwinMom2013]

HomeAgain & Green Bean. Thank you for this insight. This is what I was afraid of. If we're feeling like AoPS will kick their butts, would you back up a year to Beast Academy 5? 

Also, I did the placement test for Saxon and got 7/6. 

Would we say Envision/Pearson/Savvas is spiral or mastery curriculum? For some reason or another I am really sweating that feature of the curriculum I select. I keep coming back to the Saxon/Math-U-See decision. 

GreenBean, just curious, why do you feel their scores from public school are inaccurate? 

[TwinMom2013]

HomeAgain, I just saw your earlier post about backing up to Beast! Thank you again!

[HomeAgain]

1 hour ago, TwinMom2013 said:

HomeAgain & Green Bean. Thank you for this insight. This is what I was afraid of. If we're feeling like AoPS will kick their butts, would you back up a year to Beast Academy 5? 

Also, I did the placement test for Saxon and got 7/6. 

Would we say Envision/Pearson/Savvas is spiral or mastery curriculum? For some reason or another I am really sweating that feature of the curriculum I select. I keep coming back to the Saxon/Math-U-See decision. 

GreenBean, just curious, why do you feel their scores from public school are inaccurate? 

EnVision is spiral.  It borrows loosely from Singapore, but as a common core curriculum it focuses on attacking from different ways in order to meet each student. 

Math U See would not be appropriate for your students.  I personally love it, but not for kids who are feeling confident in math.  MUS really breaks material down to the basics so that a student can gain that confidence if they don't already have it.  If Mortensen wasn't so terribly hard to get ahold of, that would be a good option for a strong student who likes the look/feel of MUS.  Same program base, but done in strands for spiral work.

Beast Academy has placement tests that might be good for your kids to feel how it works: https://beastacademy.com/resources/placementtests 

The thing is, with a GOOD spiral curriculum, each topic doesn't feel random.  For example, when you start looking at Math Mammoth, you see a progression of skills within the spiral that connect each topic together.  It feels different, but it's a continuation of the same skills a child just worked on in the previous chapter.  Same with Saxon and a few others.  Some jump from one skill to another and try to keep up with a daily review (like TGTB math).  These aren't nearly as good because the student may work on a topic and then not touch it again for weeks.

I like both spiral and mastery -but for different kids.  I like to keep it straight and simple for kids who struggle with math, but bring in a nice little spiral for those who are ready to expand on the four operations.

[Malam]

@TwinMom2013You can take a look at the AoPS prealgebra book to see how they do: https://annas-archive.org/slow_download/7be11f9c7234e71912f6aa572e9e957f/0/2

Edited August 11 by Malam